Sceptor o Sordidness Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 Congratulations to our good friends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Kremlin Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 The strong emotions this ODP has created must be a good sign. o/ TOP o/ OBR o/ Baron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chalaskan Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 (edited) Dear Great Lords and Ladies of the Planet Digiterra,It is wonderful to see so many from across the world that have congratulated TOP and the good people of The Rosular Kingdom on this stupendous new treaty. No doubt there will be esteemed individuals that are not so deliriously happy, but that is quite acceptable. Those few unhappy people are still wonderful persons that deserve our friendship and respect. They have a right to their opinions and we must honor their courage to speak out in such ways that they have. Please know that individual members of The Order of the Paradox will do all that we can to insure that this treaty is a great success. We wish little else than to see those same unhappy people become ecstatic with joy, when they finally witness TOP and the Rosular Kingdom rising to dizzying heights on the World Stage. The continued growth and soaring prowess of both alliances are bound to make it possible for the entire world to rejoice with us. Your Humble Servant, Dear Friend Baron deSandersted, Once again you have posted something I could not agree with more. Our relationship with OBR will be something that will probably be tested. I believe that relationship will prevail. Much of this treaty is due to you, and your diligence. Thank you. 07 RK! EDIT: Yeah, that war was seen from miles away. The speed with which you bailed on them was slow and then "OH !@#$ a war better get on that!"TOP foreign policy. Sal, let me remind you, you questioned OBR and TOP as being honorable. I disagree with your statements as do most, and further state you are crying everyone is attacking you because you haven't much to stand on. Regardless, I hold no ill will towards you. I do not like you are making statements against those I hold close to myself IC. It is rather simple. Edited October 12, 2009 by Chalaskan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doitzel Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 For those that are having difficulty comprehending, I think Master Sal is trying to convey that OBR has an undeserved reputation because they have a knack for using big words to say little things. In this area I am something of an expert in that regard (not just because I, too, own a thesaurus) and heartily agree. Of all the times over the past three years when bold action was needed, they conveniently chose the time when it was needed least and acted with as little boldness as possible. Though the broader point that Master Sal is trying to make in this specific thread is perhaps lost on me. I think that OBR and TOP are a perfect fit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fedora Prefontaine Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 Despite any history of the alliances involved, this treaty puts forth a number of noble principles, and for that reason alone, it deserves notice. Whether the parties involved will stand by these principles remains to be seen, but it seems to be a treaty signed for the right reasons, which is, of course, the best kind of treaty. Best of luck to both Orders. Here's hoping you live up to your words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HellAngel Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 I stopped reading here... I can't think of a less appropriate treaty. In my long dealings with the OBR, I always found their FA department to make rational carefully measured decisions. Not sure what happened there. That was a pretty stupid thing to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigrun Vapneir Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 That. Was. The. Most. Beautiful. Treaty. I. Have. Ever. Read. Ave Paradoxia! Hail The Order of the Black Rose. May this treaty last long and be ready by many. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meer Republic Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 Despite any history of the alliances involved, this treaty puts forth a number of noble principles, and for that reason alone, it deserves notice.Whether the parties involved will stand by these principles remains to be seen, but it seems to be a treaty signed for the right reasons, which is, of course, the best kind of treaty. Best of luck to both Orders. Here's hoping you live up to your words. Thanks for your good wishes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Rahl Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 Sorry I'm late to this, but I'm glad we were able to make our love for OBR official. o/ OBR Paradox Vult! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heracles the Great Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 Absolutely Fantastic treaty - Congrats to our allies in TOP and our friends within OBR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heracles the Great Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 You just did a fine job right there.The ones I felt wronged by are gone. You are not them and it would be wrong of me to transfer my hostility and ill will towards you and "OBR 2.0". A wise and honorable decision Monkeydee - one that I hope more will utilize in the future. If two alliances truly are friends, their friendship should last until the end. If you friends stuffs up somehow, you can't just go, "lololo sorry, i no want you as friend no more go away lolololo", it's your obligation to stick by them - through the good and the bad.If you are worried about some alliances behaviour, then perhaps you shouldn't be their friend in the first place? But here it seems you're implying that "bad behaviour" is a legitimate excuse to bail on a friend... Apart from that, this also looks more like a doctrine than a treaty, unless you are saying you will only extend those courtesies and ideals to your treaty partner? Sorry SCM, but being a friend doesn't mean you support all of their decisions or behaviour, or that in the future they won't make a decision that you can not support. By your logic, everyone should only sign a MDAP, because surely you would support every decision your friend ever made. To me it seems as though you've thought about any potential e-lawyering that would need to be done to weasel your way out of fighting if your treaty partner was ever on the wrong end of a beatdown, and found a way to have it all ready for use before anything dangerous actually materialises by including it in the treaty. Then if the !@#$ actually does hit the fan all you'd need to do is proclaim that whatever act it was that got your ally into trouble was "bad behaviour" on their part, and you're free (without even having to break the treaty). It would just be the good old honourable TOP upholding their high standards by using their intelligence in following their treaties and rising above naughty behaviour as always.I also find the comments about you not ever needing to use the clause to be rather disingenuous. Firstly, if you truly believed this it wouldn't be there. Secondly, they assume that the clause is there just for your benefit, when I'm sure OBR are perfectly happy to have loopholes to get themselves out of sticky situations included in treaties too. Really, you two are perfect for each other, congratulations on the treaty. There are many MDP's with a clause regarding poor behaviour that results in aggression being brought upon them not requiring defense. This isn't even that - this is an optional defense pact that clarifies that. To say it's simply e-lawyering would be asinine. If you are going to only defend an ally if you feel they have not brought it upon themselves with their actions, then it's only right to make that clear up front. It's not e-lawyering, it's being honest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unspeakable Evil Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 I can't think of a more thoughtful and consistently deliberate alliance with whom to treaty. To our bright future! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sal Paradise Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 (edited) Sal, let me remind you, you questioned OBR and TOP as being honorable. I disagree with your statements as do most, and further state you are crying everyone is attacking you because you haven't much to stand on. You're right. I haven't much to stand on because I've only made one point so far. My entire argument rests on one thing and if you were all right you could have swiftly brushed it away by giving me examples of OBR honouring treaties that deserve them the reputation you are giving them. But here I am on shaky ground and none of you have bothered to do anything about it. Instead, you have employed your brilliant debating skills to calling me a fool, ignorant, uncreative, inarticulate and questioning whether I'm upholding the values of my alliance. I am not crying about this (as I've said, only my children are - and they're sensitive and spoiled anyways), I am merely pointing it out because to me it's an indication that you have no way of disproving my very simple point, and are resorting to tactics beneath your reputations because of it, which only further proves my point. Though the broader point that Master Sal is trying to make in this specific thread is perhaps lost on me. I think that OBR and TOP are a perfect fit. I said that too Edited October 12, 2009 by Sal Paradise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshuaR Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 Congratulations to OBR on venturing out into the wide world. And to TOP for being the first in years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chalaskan Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 You're right. I haven't much to stand on because I've only made one point so far. My entire argument rests on one thing and if you were all right you could have swiftly brushed it away by giving me examples of OBR honouring treaties that deserve them the reputation you are giving them. But here I am on shaky ground and none of you have bothered to do anything about it. Instead, you have employed your brilliant debating skills to calling me a fool, ignorant, uncreative, inarticulate and questioning whether I'm upholding the values of my alliance. I am not crying about this (as I've said, only my children are - and they're sensitive and spoiled anyways), I am merely pointing it out because to me it's an indication that you have no way of disproving my very simple point, and are resorting to tactics beneath your reputations because of it, which only further proves my point. I do hate it when issues are reduced to some simplistic version where upon people are judged as cowards, oath breakers and you name it without understanding that most decisions are far more complex then that.Sal, I've heard people that give white peace called honorable. Those that put a heavy well deserved reps on people called honorable. I've heard it used on people that stand by their allies no matter what, and those that refuse to stand by their allies when they feel their allies are doing something wrong. I've heard the word used on some of the most outragous people who I would never consider honorable, and heard dishonorable used upon those I felt were indeed honorable. The leader of your own Jedi order betrayed his alliance in a tell all because he thought they were doing wrong, and was called honorable for it. Is betrayal honorable? Is it honorable because his cause was seen as right by some people? The word is very subjective and used left right and center to describe nearly anything as either honorable or dishonorable depending more on your view of the word, morality, and perhaps your feelings you have for them. Is it therefore hard to believe that as some people have come to know them that they have come to trust them and see something in them that validates calling them honorable? In the end if you don't find them honorable that is fine. I don't believe I'm there 100% either, but those I respect such as Kiss Goodbye and our resident Baron have spoken highly of them, and until I come to my own decision I will trust their judgement. Lets not argue this in circles though for 8 more pages. Maybe you missed Khyber calling you a fool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sal Paradise Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 Nothing Khyber said provides any evidence that OBR is an alliance deserving of its reputation. Everything Khyber said is irrelevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiquidMercury Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 Nothing Khyber said provides any evidence that OBR is an alliance deserving of its reputation. Everything Khyber said is irrelevant. As someone who knows them quite well, I'm going to say they are deserving of their reputation. Interact with them on a daily basis and you'll know this too. Not every reputation is built upon huge and widely known OWF drama. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doitzel Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 (edited) I said that too I have to put up with you too much in the temple for you to expect me to carefully read all your posts here. As someone who knows them quite well, I'm going to say they are deserving of their reputation. Interact with them on a daily basis and you'll know this too. Not every reputation is built upon huge and widely known OWF drama. There's somebody active there on a daily basis? That's a new one. Edited October 12, 2009 by Elyat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogeWilliam Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 Huzzah! It is truly a good day to see such a pact signed between our two alliances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomInterrupt Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 As someone who knows them quite well, I'm going to say they are deserving of their reputation. Interact with them on a daily basis and you'll know this too. Not every reputation is built upon huge and widely known OWF drama. As one of the first ambassadors to the OBR, and as a person who worked with them from the time of their formation until No-CB war, I can say that the OBR here today is not the one I once knew. In-fact an OBR member stated the same in this very thread. Simply put, the goodwill, the honor, and the solid decision making that gave the OBR such a solid reputation now seems to no longer be present. The OBR hardly signs treaties, and when they do it is a big deal. So for them to sign with TOP of all people is an important sign. To me is a sign that the OBR has abandoned their previous morality. To me is a sign that the OBR of today is a rotten shell of what once was. Two years ago you'd of found no stronger proponent of the OBR than myself, and to some perhaps my statement will have meaning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogeWilliam Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 As one of the first ambassadors to the OBR, and as a person who worked with them from the time of their formation until No-CB war, I can say that the OBR here today is not the one I once knew. In-fact an OBR member stated the same in this very thread. Simply put, the goodwill, the honor, and the solid decision making that gave the OBR such a solid reputation now seems to no longer be present. The OBR hardly signs treaties, and when they do it is a big deal. So for them to sign with TOP of all people is an important sign. To me is a sign that the OBR has abandoned their previous morality. To me is a sign that the OBR of today is a rotten shell of what once was. Two years ago you'd of found no stronger proponent of the OBR than myself, and to some perhaps my statement will have meaning. You seem to be implying that the honor of OBR is gone due to them being connected to TOP in any way. That, sir, offends me. It is good to know what you think of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heracles the Great Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 As one of the first ambassadors to the OBR, and as a person who worked with them from the time of their formation until No-CB war, I can say that the OBR here today is not the one I once knew. In-fact an OBR member stated the same in this very thread. Simply put, the goodwill, the honor, and the solid decision making that gave the OBR such a solid reputation now seems to no longer be present. The OBR hardly signs treaties, and when they do it is a big deal. So for them to sign with TOP of all people is an important sign. To me is a sign that the OBR has abandoned their previous morality. To me is a sign that the OBR of today is a rotten shell of what once was. Two years ago you'd of found no stronger proponent of the OBR than myself, and to some perhaps my statement will have meaning. You don't like the nations of TOP - we get it... Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metal Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 You seem to be implying that the honor of OBR is gone due to them being connected to TOP in any way. That, sir, offends me. It is good to know what you think of us. That's how I read that as well... a "rotten shell of itself" simply due to the signing of a ODP (yeah, ODP...) with TOP. Seems like the issue runs a bit deeper than just RandomInterrupt-OBR feelings. Maybe I read it wrong. *shrugs* Anways, If the "rotten shell of itself" comment is true , can I be the bad apple that spoiled the rest? Please? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hasin Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 I don't want to get into mudslinging. I think our new allies in OBR deserve better than that. So fellow Knights of Paradoxia, let's just let it go. That being said, I'm glad to have signed this document with these other fine Knights. I look forward to seeing more and more of you in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sal Paradise Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 As someone who knows them quite well, I'm going to say they are deserving of their reputation. Interact with them on a daily basis and you'll know this too. Not every reputation is built upon huge and widely known OWF drama. You interact with them on a daily basis and notice how they honour their treaties and defend their allies? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.