Overrated Alliance Government

[watchman]

Good to see that this thread has remained apolitical. I'm sure Sam's critics are objectively evaluating his leadership skills and are not picking old bones.

[Vilien]

Good to see that this thread has remained apolitical. I'm sure Sam's critics are objectively evaluating his leadership skills and are not picking old bones.

I see events a few months past are far too old to use to evaluate someone's "leadership" skills. Would you have them ignore years of history in favor of a couple months of relative quiet?

[watchman]

I see events a few months past are far too old to use to evaluate someone's "leadership" skills. Would you have them ignore years of history in favor of a couple months of relative quiet?

I questioned the objectivity of the evaluation, not the timing. It all sounded like more of a smear to me. Sam certainly has his weaknesses (e.g. - bratwurst), but those weaknesses are not really the focus of the criticism voiced here. Instead, the voices of criticism speak from past bitterness.

[Vilien]

I questioned the objectivity of the evaluation, not the timing. It all sounded like more of a smear to me. Sam certainly has his weaknesses (e.g. - bratwurst), but those weaknesses are not really the focus of the criticism voiced here. Instead, the voices of criticism speak from past bitterness.

Bitterness over a political figure's tendency to switch sides conveniently does not change the validity of the criticism presented. Consistent decisions to choose political expediency over duty to one's friends and allies are of the utmost in relevance in judging the quality of a government member.

[AlmightyGrub]

I questioned the objectivity of the evaluation, not the timing. It all sounded like more of a smear to me. Sam certainly has his weaknesses (e.g. - bratwurst), but those weaknesses are not really the focus of the criticism voiced here. Instead, the voices of criticism speak from past bitterness.

Objectivity you call for. Do we really need to go back over the laundry list to establish what are well known facts? I like your cute bratwurst reference, makes me think of you in the image of a shiny happy pony with glossy black mane flowing in the wind. I have always thought you a little on the limp wristed side of politics, but even now you wont defend him with facts, just an attack on the credibility of those arguing the point. Poor old Grub, just ignore him, he is all bitter and butt hurt. It will remind you to look at where Polaris sits in the world ranking right now, I have no reason to be butt hurt, I celebrate our success, just as I am happy to point out the failures of the one leader in this game I genuinely and objectively despise.

Herr Bratwurst has a demonstrated, a clearly defined pattern of behaviour. The fact that you are being used as his current posterior flossing agent does not belie the fact he is what he is, an opportunist of the highest order, a petty provocateur, and someone who turns on his friends for personal gain.

Smear campaigns are not required, facts are facts. He betrays allies when it suits his purpose to do so. When you even betray the alliance you are leading at the time, you get a special place in history. Betrayal, backstabbing and bull@#%! are his demonstrated track record. I am more than amused that even Gopher is happy to add his rather weighty opinion re the dissolve of Sam's MCXA to the record however my position was formed quite in isolation to his.

Wave your flag and beat your drum with that bratwurst but don't wade into something so far over your head and so far outside your comprehension without at least understanding the accusation... because you were not involved in any way shape or form in the genesis of these issues.

[The Big Bad]

I questioned the objectivity of the evaluation, not the timing. It all sounded like more of a smear to me. Sam certainly has his weaknesses (e.g. - bratwurst), but those weaknesses are not really the focus of the criticism voiced here. Instead, the voices of criticism speak from past bitterness.

I can tell you he did MCXA wrong and lied to Q leadership, telling us it was all good and all planned out with MCXA with the entire TSO debacle. I was suprised TOP still kept them on after that. I do not have any issues with Sam myself but, I would not trust him.

[WildThing]

Good to see that this thread has remained apolitical. I'm sure Sam's critics are objectively evaluating his leadership skills and are not picking old bones.

This seems to be the only argument you guys can throw up and despite the fact that I've never had any dealings with Sam before in my CN career, it doesn't take a genius to look at his history and go

[Baden-Württemberg]

Let's face it, there are people in this game, who work hard to be seen as evil as possible. It seems I get the title "Mr. Evil !@#$%^&" with very little to no work. Honestly, nothing better can happen to you in a political simulator, than to have people who really hate you.

And if you are hated, you know that you have been standing up for something. You have done something, which has pissed other people off. That also means that you're playing the game in a way in which you don't see it as a "pixel collection festival", but are trying to understand the political coherences and use the political instruments.

Now, when it comes to Almighty Grub, there's so much he could have said about me, about my mess ups, and I'd have probably agreed with him. Yes, I have messed up several times in the game, but I have always pointed out my mistakes, and I usually try to correct them. However, he chose to present us with an ignorant viewpoint, which is, with all due respect, a long way from the truth.

The problem with his statements is that they're referring to completely different events. Pointing out my opinion on each of them, would take me hours if not days. So I'll only give a very short answer on each of them.

But before I do that, I want to add, that some people here simply give me way too much credit. People have accused me of being responsible for basically everything that went wrong on Planet Bob, from 2006 onwards.Other people (Hi Gopher) draw a picture of "Sam" being an Evil, backstabbing scary wizard who can predict the future, and is hence unstoppable. That's quite funny, and honestly, although his post was negative through and through, I liked it a lot and it made me smile. But yeah, it's not true. Without going into detail, I am not responsible for many things that have happened. Sorry to disappoint.

Grub:

The reason why you hate me, and not Grämlins or TOP or Valhalla is because you feel humiliated by me. Considering what has happened between the two of us, our resignation from BLEU and afterwards the war, that's understandable, but honestly, I don't care. However, lets not pretend it has nothing to do with the war. I believe, you are still sore about past events, and Sunny's point is valid.

I think your next paragraph is about my departure from MCXA, and it shows how little you know. It's not your business anyway, and I consider it a done deal. However, I'd like to add that the then Commander, Celt, offered MCXA a fight, but they refused and took the money instead. So the only reason we bought ourselves out of it, is because MCXA preferred it that way.

Then there's your point about the Karma War, which is honestly a joke. No one could have predicted NPO's attack on Ordo Verde that way. On top of that, we signed a protectorate with an alliance whose oldest MDP is with NPO and who was in the Continuum at that time. TOP are pretty democratic too, there's no way we could have guessed the leadership and judged which side they'd go. Gopher claimed that I am good when it comes to predicting things, but honestly, no one can be that good. But yes, I knew all that beforehand, since I can obviously predict the future, so this was long way planned.

What you said about BLEU is funny. When I told you during the NADC war, that I have to see the evidence against NADC, because my Members were not happy with the points I have presented them, you told me, MCXA is full of cowards because we don't want to fight, although the only thing I wanted was justice. Now you call me a coward for not revolting. Something's not right there. I very well criticised many things happening in BLEU, the turning point of our relation was the NADC war, and the end was, when you told me to prepare a war against Grämlins. Your "we-are-not-telling-other-people-in-BLEU-what- we-are-up-to" policy, and your constant "$%&@-off responses", when we came to you with a problem, didn't help the situation either. The resignation from BLEU was the right and necessary step. Good we cleared that up.

Now to Gopher. I think I have made enough jokes about your "Sam the evil wizard who predict the future" comments, but certainly, some of your accusations cannot stay unanswered.

As master of the facts you should know that the only time I have realigned myself was when we quit BLEU. If you think that having a treaty with TOP means "re-allying" myself, then that's wrong. I know many Members of TOP for quite a while, some like Saber, from before Great War II. And that was when? December 2006?

That said, I don't think that my reign in MCXA was all too bad, I think I have been quite successful with the projects I have undertaken. You know why I resigned from MCXA, you know that long list of reasons does not include backstabbing, and you know that at the time I was resigning there were no signs of a war on the Continuum Forums.

I don't have the time or motivation to respond to more posts in this thread, and I think we are done anyway.

[willirica]

I can tell you he did MCXA wrong and lied to Q leadership, telling us it was all good and all planned out with MCXA with the entire TSO debacle. I was suprised TOP still kept them on after that. I do not have any issues with Sam myself but, I would not trust him.

TOP kept them on because their paradigm is to treaty as many top tier nations ( you know the ones that would have to band together in order to stomp them) and alliances to them as possible; in order to prevent any loss of precious infra in any future conflicts.

[Timberland]

TOP kept them on because their paradigm is to treaty as many top tier nations ( you know the ones that would have to band together in order to stomp them) and alliances to them as possible; in order to prevent any loss of precious infra in any future conflicts.

LOL wait till tonight or tomorrow

[Vladimir Stukov II]

LOL wait till tonight or tomorrow

I can't wait! I love keeping my infra safe.

[Delta1212]

Good to see that this thread has remained apolitical. I'm sure Sam's critics are objectively evaluating his leadership skills and are not picking old bones.

This thread is titled "Overrated Alliance Government." How in the hell could you possibly expect that to remain apolitical? Do you understand what that word means?

[watchman]

This thread is titled "Overrated Alliance Government." How in the hell could you possibly expect that to remain apolitical? Do you understand what that word means?

Wasn't my idea. From the OP:

I genuinely believe that we can have a constructive conversation on this without actually devolving down to petty disputes.

[AlmightyGrub]

Let's face it, there are people in this game, who work hard to be seen as evil as possible. It seems I get the title "Mr. Evil !@#$%^&" with very little to no work. Honestly, nothing better can happen to you in a political simulator, than to have people who really hate you.

And if you are hated, you know that you have been standing up for something. You have done something, which has pissed other people off. That also means that you're playing the game in a way in which you don't see it as a "pixel collection festival", but are trying to understand the political coherences and use the political instruments.

Now, when it comes to Almighty Grub, there's so much he could have said about me, about my mess ups, and I'd have probably agreed with him. Yes, I have messed up several times in the game, but I have always pointed out my mistakes, and I usually try to correct them. However, he chose to present us with an ignorant viewpoint, which is, with all due respect, a long way from the truth.

The problem with his statements is that they're referring to completely different events. Pointing out my opinion on each of them, would take me hours if not days. So I'll only give a very short answer on each of them.

But before I do that, I want to add, that some people here simply give me way too much credit. People have accused me of being responsible for basically everything that went wrong on Planet Bob, from 2006 onwards.Other people (Hi Gopher) draw a picture of "Sam" being an Evil, backstabbing scary wizard who can predict the future, and is hence unstoppable. That's quite funny, and honestly, although his post was negative through and through, I liked it a lot and it made me smile. But yeah, it's not true. Without going into detail, I am not responsible for many things that have happened. Sorry to disappoint.

Grub:

The reason why you hate me, and not Grämlins or TOP or Valhalla is because you feel humiliated by me. Considering what has happened between the two of us, our resignation from BLEU and afterwards the war, that's understandable, but honestly, I don't care. However, lets not pretend it has nothing to do with the war. I believe, you are still sore about past events, and Sunny's point is valid.

I think your next paragraph is about my departure from MCXA, and it shows how little you know. It's not your business anyway, and I consider it a done deal. However, I'd like to add that the then Commander, Celt, offered MCXA a fight, but they refused and took the money instead. So the only reason we bought ourselves out of it, is because MCXA preferred it that way.

Then there's your point about the Karma War, which is honestly a joke. No one could have predicted NPO's attack on Ordo Verde that way. On top of that, we signed a protectorate with an alliance whose oldest MDP is with NPO and who was in the Continuum at that time. TOP are pretty democratic too, there's no way we could have guessed the leadership and judged which side they'd go. Gopher claimed that I am good when it comes to predicting things, but honestly, no one can be that good. But yes, I knew all that beforehand, since I can obviously predict the future, so this was long way planned.

What you said about BLEU is funny. When I told you during the NADC war, that I have to see the evidence against NADC, because my Members were not happy with the points I have presented them, you told me, MCXA is full of cowards because we don't want to fight, although the only thing I wanted was justice. Now you call me a coward for not revolting. Something's not right there. I very well criticised many things happening in BLEU, the turning point of our relation was the NADC war, and the end was, when you told me to prepare a war against Grämlins. Your "we-are-not-telling-other-people-in-BLEU-what- we-are-up-to" policy, and your constant "$%&@-off responses", when we came to you with a problem, didn't help the situation either. The resignation from BLEU was the right and necessary step. Good we cleared that up.

The reason I hate you is you are exactly what I know you to be from my personal dealings and from the personal dealing of others. Humiliated me you say? Ha, you are a joke. You humiliated others for your own gain and as overcompensation for some serious OOC size issues. You could not humiliate me, however you could make incredulous demands knowing you had the backing of the powers that be, you could force others to sacrifice their enjoyment in the game for your own petty and pathetic agenda.

Your account of the NADC war matches absolutely nothing that actually occurred, in fact I was go as far as to say it is a complete crock of poop (rather similar to the spin you put on RIOT to make everyone believe you were a good guy and not some kind of indeterminable pond scum).

You are a bare faced liar, unfortunately I know what actually happened, whether anyone else believes you or me doesn't really matter. I know what you are, I know your dirty little secrets that you would prefer to dismiss with ''OMFGZ I am teh ebil I iz teh winner of CN''.

Sponge, may he RIP, had a lot to answer for in-game, but by the standards he was judged, you should be long consigned to public isolation as well ... well I consider that you are really, you are almost as irrelevant to the game as he is now. Enjoy the bratwurst, try not to choke on it.

Edited October 9, 2009 by AlmightyGrub

[Blue Lightning]

I'm surprised everyone isn't too busy throwing tomatoes at Sam to actually rate him. You all post a lot of interesting insults laced with passionate buzzwords like "betrayal" and "backstabbing", but for the interested observer you could at least attempt to filter the ambiguous rhetoric from your attacks. After all, as he's such a loathsome character, the actual legitimate criticism can't be hard to come by.

[Ski11585]

I'm surprised everyone isn't too busy throwing tomatoes at Sam to actually rate him. You all post a lot of interesting insults laced with passionate buzzwords like "betrayal" and "backstabbing", but for the interested observer you could at least attempt to filter the ambiguous rhetoric from your attacks. After all, as he's such a loathsome character, the actual legitimate criticism can't be hard to come by.

Well, if you want some legitimate criticism, what about the OOC attacks Sam has resorted to? The ones that were arguably worse than what Sponge was accused of prior to the OoO being canceled. That alone tells me all I would ever need to know about Sam.

[Gopherbashi]

I'm surprised everyone isn't too busy throwing tomatoes at Sam to actually rate him. You all post a lot of interesting insults laced with passionate buzzwords like "betrayal" and "backstabbing", but for the interested observer you could at least attempt to filter the ambiguous rhetoric from your attacks. After all, as he's such a loathsome character, the actual legitimate criticism can't be hard to come by.

On the contrary, I've already said quite clearly that he's underrated - something I hope that your alliance does not choose to ignore.

Although, seeing Sam beat his chest and brag about offering war to his former alliance is somewhat mitigated by hiding behind big brother TOP when it happened, and that his opponents were logistically crippled when the offer was made. One could barely see how TSO would have survived.

[AlmightyGrub]

I'm surprised everyone isn't too busy throwing tomatoes at Sam to actually rate him. You all post a lot of interesting insults laced with passionate buzzwords like "betrayal" and "backstabbing", but for the interested observer you could at least attempt to filter the ambiguous rhetoric from your attacks. After all, as he's such a loathsome character, the actual legitimate criticism can't be hard to come by.

It is very very easy to come by. Unfortunately it will never be directly discussed on these forums. So we will dance around it a little for the sake of common decency.

Herr Bratwurst knows what he did, no one needs to explain it to him. The fact he continues to spin like an old Hoover doesn't change what happened. The fact that people I normally regard as fairly intelligent buy into it amuses me and truly shows the skill of the man. Practiced at the art of deception, handles the truth carelessly, bare faced liar.. take your pick

[New Frontier]

Having worked with Sam, I for one can say I was not at all surprised by his actions regarding TSO and MCXA. After all, he did the same thing to the Federation when founding MCCF.

[Blue Lightning]

If you can't or won't directly discuss your criticism(s) here then what do you hope to achieve by beating around their bush here?

[Penkala]

Then there's your point about the Karma War, which is honestly a joke. No one could have predicted NPO's attack on Ordo Verde that way. On top of that, we signed a protectorate with an alliance whose oldest MDP is with NPO and who was in the Continuum at that time. TOP are pretty democratic too, there's no way we could have guessed the leadership and judged which side they'd go. Gopher claimed that I am good when it comes to predicting things, but honestly, no one can be that good. But yes, I knew all that beforehand, since I can obviously predict the future, so this was long way planned.

You knew. We all knew. SF knew, Citadel knew, CnG knew, Q knew, 1V knew. Everyone knew the general lineup. There were some changes due to the way in which the war started, but you knew beforehand that there was a decent chance NPO would lose - as good of a chance as there ever was that NPO would lose.

Oh, and not only those you've wronged don't like you. Plenty of people don't, and you can't use the 'they're just butthurt' defense for all of them.

[zzzptm]

Hate =/= overrated.

Grub's not afraid to call a spade a spade, though. I'm loving the fact NV is allied with NpO.

Yesterday, today, forever, O Polaris!

Back on topic, though... I don't think I'd trust Sam after the way he bailed on BLEU and tap-danced into 1V. Given that that was his reputation, I don't see how living up to it makes him overrated. He made things happen then, but not so much of late. That makes him move closer to Overrated City, Arizona.

[Doitzel]

I'm surprised everyone isn't too busy throwing tomatoes at Sam to actually rate him. You all post a lot of interesting insults laced with passionate buzzwords like "betrayal" and "backstabbing", but for the interested observer you could at least attempt to filter the ambiguous rhetoric from your attacks. After all, as he's such a loathsome character, the actual legitimate criticism can't be hard to come by.

Honestly, most of the reasons to hate Sam really don't need to be brought up here. Let's call it "unequaled immaturity" -- and I'm not talking about the times he spammed obscenities in #vox_populi under the name GIGANTIC_TITTIES.

[watchman]

Herr Bratwurst knows what he did, no one needs to explain it to him. The fact he continues to spin like an old Hoover doesn't change what happened. The fact that people I normally regard as fairly intelligent buy into it amuses me and truly shows the skill of the man. Practiced at the art of deception, handles the truth carelessly, bare faced liar.. take your pick

Accusing Sam of spinning is interesting considering you have spewed nothing but propaganda and pursued old grudges throughout this thread, instead of offering real, tangible criticisms of his (apparently) overrated leadership abilities.

[Khyber]

I can tell you he did MCXA wrong and lied to Q leadership, telling us it was all good and all planned out with MCXA with the entire TSO debacle. I was suprised TOP still kept them on after that. I do not have any issues with Sam myself but, I would not trust him.

I do believe Fresh lied even more to Q with his "oh woe is me" theatrics after Sam left. We did conduct a full investigation, and our membership saw quite a bit of logs of what Fresh knew, of what we asked Fresh, of what Sam said, and everything inbetween. Our GA was outraged at the fact that Sam may have lied to us and wanted the full details. What came out of it was that some people were crying foul when they shouldn't have been, and that yes Sam and co. did their departure in a stupid manner, and even if they meant well they should have done it differently. We then decided to give them one more chance, and since then they have proven to be worthy allies to us and a healthy respect has grown from the both of us.

I never considered Sam a great leader, I think he makes mistakes, and has made several blunders. He is a nice guy of what little I know of him, but I've never considered MCXA while being lead by him a major power, and TSO is a small group of friends with no ambition to rise to the same hieghts as MCXA or other major alliances. So since I've never heard anyone rate him high before, I don't know why he would be over rated. That said I don't know him that well.

As for the claim we allied with TSO for their top end nations, please read above, we actually demanded our voting council to provide all data to us and ask all sides of that mess for details on anything missing. I know I was pissed seeing Fresh spout his BS to Q to play the victim, when we had sufficient logs showing he knew far more then he later pretended he knew. Our GA is not concerned about NS or ANS, we are more concerned about what is right and wrong, and since I don't know the whole song and dance of what happened between Sam and Grub, I'm left having to judge him on what I do know, and logs that showed me who really was more honest with us in that MCXA debacle. That said Sam was a dumb $@! in that mess, but we all have the right to be stupid sometimes, just like ES was, just like Moo was, and we suffer for our mistakes in varying degrees, TSO and Sam suffer with it with constant crisizm, and their relative isolation.