Warning

[Thierra]

I suppose love is stronger than hate. Forgive the cliché.

Honey, I may be a huge pro-Pacifican myself (which is odd considering the people I work with these days), but even I have to ask you to take the Kool-Aid in smaller sips.

[The Big Bad]

The problem with Karma is many of them are worse than NPO in everyway. The other problem with Karma is it was mixed with people just looking for a power play and people looking for revenge. The fact most of them can not stand each other made any chance to destroy NPO a failure from its start. I guess they figured they had to make some kind of move while they could as most them have been in state of decline and continue in that direction. And lets not even go intp how certain alliances behavior before and after the war have made then not only disliked but a target of their own Karna allies. Lets face it NPO does not need to plan revenge on Karma, I expect they will just sit back and laugh while Karma destoys themselves.

[Delta1212]

The problem with Karma is many of them are worse than NPO in everyway. The other problem with Karma is it was mixed with people just looking for a power play and people looking for revenge. The fact most of them can not stand each other made any chance to destroy NPO a failure from its start. I guess they figured they had to make some kind of move while they could as most them have been in state of decline and continue in that direction. And lets not even go intp how certain alliances behavior before and after the war have made then not only disliked but a target of their own Karna allies. Lets face it NPO does not need to plan revenge on Karma, I expect they will just sit back and laugh while Karma destoys themselves.

I think perhaps you may have missed a large part of the point of Karma. Mostly, that it no longer exists because the war is over. It wasn't intended to be a political organization that dominated the game post-war. In fact, most people that were a part of Karma specifically didn't want that to happen. If factions made up largely of former Karma members eventually go to war, I dare say most of Karma will have gotten exactly what they hoped for. You speak of deviciveness amongst the power centers of the political world as if this is a result of Karma's failure when in actual fact it was the point entirely.

[Delta1212]

Double post

Edited September 6, 2009 by Delta1212

[The Big Bad]

I think perhaps you may have missed a large part of the point of Karma. Mostly, that it no longer exists because the war is over. It wasn't intended to be a political organization that dominated the game post-war. In fact, most people that were a part of Karma specifically didn't want that to happen. If factions made up largely of former Karma members eventually go to war, I dare say most of Karma will have gotten exactly what they hoped for. You speak of deviciveness amongst the power centers of the political world as if this is a result of Karma's failure when in actual fact it was the point entirely.

So the return of NPO to power after you wipe each other out was your goal? Well done then.

[Augustus Autumn]

I think perhaps you may have missed a large part of the point of Karma.

The fault might lie with this very statement, perhaps (and by fault, Delta, I don't mean yours). Over the course of the past four months or so there has been a lot of debate about what precisely the point of the Karma Coalition was and if the war aims of the alliances that made up Karma were, in fact, able to be integrated. From all the discussion it seems that the following have been named as aims of the Coalition by various persons (government or otherwise) at various times (this list is by no means exclusive).

1. Removal of the New Pacifica Order from its central political role.

2. Restrictions on the New Pacific Order so that it could not return to occupying a central political role.

3. Permanent peace terms for Pacifica, The Phoenix Federation, Echelon, Invicta and any other Hegemony alliance.

4. PZI for Pacifica, The Phoenix Federation, Echelon, Invicta and any other Hegemony alliance.

5. EZI for Pacifica, The Phoenix Federation, Echelon, Invicta and any other Hegemony alliance.

6. Freeing the Federation of Armed Nations from war.

7. Freeing Vox Populi from war.

8. Altering the political scheme of the Cyberverse from mono-polar to multi-polar (now anywhere between three and five major foci but that's heavily debatable).

9. Allowance of prosperity for new alliances without them having to be beholden to established alliances (aka destruction of the Protectorate System).

10. Freedom of speech without fear of retribution.

Not all alliances wanted all of the things on this list. I'd argue most of the alliances involved in the Karma Coalition didn't want more than one or two things on this list (if that). So here we have the author of this discussion crying about how the Karma Coalition has failed / didn't do enough / are pansies / whatever but there was no cohesive list of goals outside of what amounted to changing the sanction status of Pacifica and some other alliances and placing Pacifica and other alliances under major terms of surrender. Sure, someone's going to be disappointed along the way but that happens when you have to compromise.

That all being said, the war is over and the various alliances that were involved are now settling their debts and rebuilding. People have asked for the opportunity to bring change to the Cyberverse - to the OP, here's your chance so enjoy it while it lasts.

[Alterego]

Wartime is over, therefore Karma no longer exists.

As long as they are enforcing eternal peace terms they exist.

[BamaBuc]

As long as they are enforcing eternal peace terms they exist.

Yes and no. Obviously there are still groups of alliances enforcing terms, but there is no one "Karma" group still in existence. There's just "the group of alliances enforcing NPO's terms", "the group of alliances enforcing Echelon's terms", etc. There is some degree of overlap between these groups, but the former forces of Karma are anything but unified.

-Bama

[Mathias]

As long as they are enforcing eternal peace terms they exist.

Yes, because it was the Initiative that attacked GATO during the GATO-1V War for breaking peace terms.

Karma was a war coalition. War's over now, so Karma doesn't exist anymore. Terms are enforced by the alliances that signed them.

[DogeWilliam]

So the return of NPO to power after you wipe each other out was your goal? Well done then.

That remains to be seen really. NPO will have to find allies eventually. There is no guarantee that things will go well for them on that front. NPO is a great alliance, but this is a game of alliances between alliances so to speak.

[Hydro]

Within the quote you included in your post Francesca explains very clearly the reasons behind the move to NPO. Then for some reason in your reply to said quote, you decided to speculate wildly and unsuccessfully as to her reasons for joining NPO, despite them having already been laid out for you in the very post that you quoted! So I must ask you, Hydro, why did you not read the quoted post and if you did; why are you so ignorant as to dismiss such a reasonable explanation out of hand in favour of your own crackpot theories?

OOC: Is it really that hard for you to comprehend that this is a game and adopting different viewpoints and mingling with different sets of people can be fun? It is not real life and if you choose to sit in with the bad guy for a while you do not have to feel ashamed because guess what, it's just a game! Whilst you may think that adopting one opinion and sticking with that throughout your time in this game is the epitome of fun, Francesca is apparently more open-minded. And being open-minded is really not something to criticise anyone for.

And I am to trust the words of a Vox terrorist turned NPO stooge? Please

[Alterego]

Yes and no. Obviously there are still groups of alliances enforcing terms, but there is no one "Karma" group still in existence. There's just "the group of alliances enforcing NPO's terms", "the group of alliances enforcing Echelon's terms", etc. There is some degree of overlap between these groups, but the former forces of Karma are anything but unified.

-Bama

Being unified wasnt necessary for them to fight and win this war. They are not a classic political bloc, they only need war started by a breach of original terms and in will be Karma not the individual alliances who retaliate. These are some of the core Karma alliances, it will be the core of Karma who retaliates they only exist as single alliances at the moment because there in no war for this war coalition to reform and fight.

Yes, because it was the Initiative that attacked GATO during the GATO-1V War for breaking peace terms.

Karma was a war coalition. War's over now, so Karma doesn't exist anymore. Terms are enforced by the alliances that signed them.

Breaking those terms will result in a continuation of the war by Karma forces. Sure not every single Karma alliance will be involved but it will be Karma forces who are reactivated if these terms are broken in the years to come. These are some of the core members of the bloc and unlike Initiative this was a "war coalition" without any formal agreement meaning when they get together and fight any continuation of the Karma war they become Karma again. The Initiative was a political grouping and obviously didn't reform to fight that war, a war coalition is very different though when they are reactivated the original lose nature of this war coalition is reformed.

[Azaghul]

The problem with Karma is many of them are worse than NPO in everyway. The other problem with Karma is it was mixed with people just looking for a power play and people looking for revenge. The fact most of them can not stand each other made any chance to destroy NPO a failure from its start. I guess they figured they had to make some kind of move while they could as most them have been in state of decline and continue in that direction. And lets not even go intp how certain alliances behavior before and after the war have made then not only disliked but a target of their own Karna allies. Lets face it NPO does not need to plan revenge on Karma, I expect they will just sit back and laugh while Karma destoys themselves.

You weren't around in Karma and are speculating on things you don't really know anything about. There were some conflicts within Karma but for the most part everyone got along and worked together pretty well.

And "make some kind of move"? You sure have selective memory trying to rewrite history. Hegemony STARTED the war against an alliance whose treaties directly brought in C&G and Superfriends, and by extension their allies. Nearly everyone in Karma was primarily reacting to what they perceived to be aggression and a direct threat and attack against them and/or their allies. Hegemony's aggression is what forced Karma to come together and fight. It was primarily defensive, not a power play, quest for revenge, or quest to destroy NPO.

[Ephemeral]

Melodrama is delicious.

It is a shame that it's good for absolutely nothing else.

[Starcraftmazter]

Let them come - those of us who choose to defend freedom were born ready to fight for it.

Pic very much related.

Also, I disagree with pretty much everything you said, but I don't wish to waste time and effort arguing with you - that is, if you are in fact for real.

[Vladimir]

Is the constant claim that Karma will return in an instant to defeat those evil NPO dogs not a little contradictory to the 'Karma doesn't exist' line? If Karma alliances are just sitting around twiddling their thumbs waiting for the NPO to pop up again (as it seems they are) then they remain a de facto bloc -- things don't need a charter to exist.

[Starcraftmazter]

Is the constant claim that Karma will return in an instant to defeat those evil NPO dogs not a little contradictory to the 'Karma doesn't exist' line? If Karma alliances are just sitting around twiddling their thumbs waiting for the NPO to pop up again (as it seems they are) then they remain a de facto bloc -- things don't need a charter to exist.

I'm pretty sure what people mean to say is that some adequately sizable group of alliances will band together to bring down anybody who attempts to infringe on the freedom and safety which we now enjoy.

[Delta1212]

Is the constant claim that Karma will return in an instant to defeat those evil NPO dogs not a little contradictory to the 'Karma doesn't exist' line? If Karma alliances are just sitting around twiddling their thumbs waiting for the NPO to pop up again (as it seems they are) then they remain a de facto bloc -- things don't need a charter to exist.

I don't really know anyone that's twiddling their thumbs waiting for NPO to come back. Granted there are some people like the OP who just can't let things go, but most if not all of them are not in government. Of course, we're all aware that you still exist, but you aren't really the center of attention anymore, except possibly in the public forum by virtue of the aforementioned people who don't know how to let things go. These individuals are also the main source of the claim that Karma will reform to defeat NPO if they ever try to make another political move. Personally, while I like the vast majority of the people I worked with and have a healthy respect for many of them, I don't believe anyone is anxious to repeat the experience. There were too many different organizational philosophies at work and everyone was forced to work in close quarters for far too long. It got the job done but it still more than occasionally stressful getting that many people to agree on all of the minute details.

That said, the people who claim that NPO would be stopped from retaking in the helm aren't far wrong. You lost more allies and political clout in one go than most alliances ever gain in the first place. Even after terms have ended, you won't have the ability to put together a force that could take down even one of the current major powers. Not immediately anyway. Who knows what might happen a year or two from now, but that's part of the fun, not knowing for sure.

Regardless, you make for what can be mildly abusing arguments on the OWF, but as far as meta-politics go, you are out of the loop and a minor variable in the grand equation. Right now, you're a disconnected alliance in a landscape dominated by bloc politics, though you'll probably add an interesting aspect to the Poseidon/CDT corner once you get out from under terms unless you manage to strike out on your own, though that will probably take longer to bear political fruit.

[Alterego]

Let them come - those of us who choose to defend freedom were born ready to fight for it.

Rewriting history are we? You are not a freedom fighter. You entered the war days after it started, fought one war for an ally and band wagoned another. Thats hardly Vox material

[HeinousOne]

Is the constant claim that Karma will return in an instant to defeat those evil NPO dogs not a little contradictory to the 'Karma doesn't exist' line? If Karma alliances are just sitting around twiddling their thumbs waiting for the NPO to pop up again (as it seems they are) then they remain a de facto bloc -- things don't need a charter to exist.

Most folks with just a small amount of true understanding realize that the true power of NPO was not the NPO itself but all the periphery power that it wielded due to all the alliances that were connected to the NPO centric web of hegemony. You were the central role of tC and 1V. What are you the central role of now? You are debased to the point of only being able to point to those who are still locked in a fear state. They seem to lack the wits to be able to move out of that state of mind now that the NPO is just another alliance like everyone else. Maybe you will slowly be able to rebuild that construct of power that you once had but all eyes are upon you. If you ever do again get yourselves inserted into a large conglomerate of power, you will likely never again have the amount of control over it that you once experienced.

Now, you can deny such but you are far too intelligent to not see this and you are far more intelligent then the above quote represents Vladimir. Everyone can see that the former Karmic alliances now exist in a standoff, each once again residing back in their respective corners of the world. If you and the NPO desire to try and bring them all back out of their corners to fight NPO again some day in the distant future then best of luck to you, you are certainly free to try but to propagandize that there is still an existing Karma bloc within the shadows is quite far fetched Vladimir.

[Vladimir]

Did I hit a sore spot? Way too much being read into what I said. I know we're out on the periphery. I know we're not about to take over the world. I know we aren't a threat to any of the fear-mongering or FREEDOMFREEDOMFREEDOM posters. Indeed, if you had been reading my posts at any point over the past three months or so (or if you had seen me discussing it in #nsa) you would have realised that I have consistently been making the point that the fear and focus on us is asinine.

My point is that you cannot simultaneously claim that Karma doesn't exist and that Karma will reappear to destroy the evil NPO. Either it exists as a de facto bloc ready for action or it doesn't. If the point is simply that powers will fight powers, then no point is being made at all, and the mention of Karma or the NPO is... well, pointless. Thus I made a call for people to make a choice: is Karma standing strong as the anti-Pacifican vanguard, or has it long since dissolved into infighting as the great war legend said it would.

The responses of Delta and HeinousOne are not therefore in disagreement with myself, but rather they are a round condemnation of the stance of Starcraftmazter and many others. Given this your post has little relation to mine, HeinousOne, except to stand in agreement about the Order's peripheral position.

We could go deeper into why there is such focus on us and the realities of 'It's all happening behind the scenes!' bloc politics, but I fear such is treading dangerously off topic. I will simply say that when things are actually happening, and when there is genuine conflict going on and not just tit-for-tat manoeuvring, it quickly finds its way to the OWF and we would not be getting such attention. As it is we stand closer to the great post-GPW stagnation and the consequent popular complaints about how little happens without the NPO around, than we do to the mythical multi-polar world of Karma folklore.

[shahenshah]

nvm del

Edited September 7, 2009 by shahenshah

[Jack Diorno]

Did I hit a sore spot? Way too much being read into what I said. I know we're out on the periphery. I know we're not about to take over the world. I know we aren't a threat to any of the fear-mongering or FREEDOMFREEDOMFREEDOM posters. Indeed, if you had been reading my posts at any point over the past three months or so (or if you had seen me discussing it in #nsa) you would have realised that I have consistently been making the point that the fear and focus on us is asinine.

My point is that you cannot simultaneously claim that Karma doesn't exist and that Karma will reappear to destroy the evil NPO. Either it exists as a de facto bloc ready for action or it doesn't. If the point is simply that powers will fight powers, then no point is being made at all, and the mention of Karma or the NPO is... well, pointless. Thus I made a call for people to make a choice: is Karma standing strong as the anti-Pacifican vanguard, or has it long since dissolved into infighting as the great war legend said it would.

The responses of Delta and HeinousOne are not therefore in disagreement with myself, but rather they are a round condemnation of the stance of Starcraftmazter and many others. Given this your post has little relation to mine, HeinousOne, except to stand in agreement about the Order's peripheral position.

We could go deeper into why there is such focus on us and the realities of 'It's all happening behind the scenes!' bloc politics, but I fear such is treading dangerously off topic. I will simply say that when things are actually happening, and when there is genuine conflict going on and not just tit-for-tat manoeuvring, it quickly finds its way to the OWF and we would not be getting such attention. As it is we stand closer to the great post-GPW stagnation and the consequent popular complaints about how little happens without the NPO around, than we do to the mythical multi-polar world of Karma folklore.

What makes you think the world isn't multi-polar?

[HeinousOne]

Did I hit a sore spot? Way too much being read into what I said. I know we're out on the periphery. I know we're not about to take over the world. I know we aren't a threat to any of the fear-mongering or FREEDOMFREEDOMFREEDOM posters. Indeed, if you had been reading my posts at any point over the past three months or so (or if you had seen me discussing it in #nsa) you would have realised that I have consistently been making the point that the fear and focus on us is asinine.

My point is that you cannot simultaneously claim that Karma doesn't exist and that Karma will reappear to destroy the evil NPO. Either it exists as a de facto bloc ready for action or it doesn't. If the point is simply that powers will fight powers, then no point is being made at all, and the mention of Karma or the NPO is... well, pointless. Thus I made a call for people to make a choice: is Karma standing strong as the anti-Pacifican vanguard, or has it long since dissolved into infighting as the great war legend said it would.

The responses of Delta and HeinousOne are not therefore in disagreement with myself, but rather they are a round condemnation of the stance of Starcraftmazter and many others. Given this your post has little relation to mine, HeinousOne, except to stand in agreement about the Order's peripheral position.

We could go deeper into why there is such focus on us and the realities of 'It's all happening behind the scenes!' bloc politics, but I fear such is treading dangerously off topic. I will simply say that when things are actually happening, and when there is genuine conflict going on and not just tit-for-tat manoeuvring, it quickly finds its way to the OWF and we would not be getting such attention. As it is we stand closer to the great post-GPW stagnation and the consequent popular complaints about how little happens without the NPO around, than we do to the mythical multi-polar world of Karma folklore.

Not sure if you were referring to myself and possibly Delta with the sore spot comment but I will just assume you meant some of the others.

Is Karma dead? I certainly hope so. Does that mean that a similiar coalition will never spring up should conditions be favorable for such? Hardly. Does that mean that the only condition for such be the rise of NPO? That would be incorrect as well.

As far as nothing happening, I don't know what world you live in but there has been plenty of entertainment going around these parts without being started by NPO. So for right now I do like this multi-polar world of Karma folklore.

[Newhotness]

There are those in this world who feel safer today than they were yesterday. There are those who feel that the days ahead are brighter than the days behind, that they made a difference in the karma war, that the forces of evil have been dealt irreparable damage and that they will never again rule with an iron fist as they once had. This is a false sense of security.

Do to the incompetence and impotence of the forces of karma to finish the job against the NPO and the Hegemony, and by allowing them to live, allowing the ideology which threatens the security of all by placing unlimited power in the hands of the elitist few, and our future is in jeopardy. The leaders of the forces of karma, in there greed, sought to gain technology, money, land and infrastructure. Thinking they can stay ahead and keep the hegemony in check with such gifts, have forsaken those they were to protect for there own benefit.

The evil forces of the hegemony are once again on the rise. The NPO has gone from number 12 to number ten in a few short weeks, they have issued a new maldavi doctrine which is hidden with under lying messages and open to interpitation, they seek to unite the red sphere economically, which is the first step to conquest. They have always been and always will be a threat. But now our future is even more grim. They will seek there revenge on those who have harmed her.

But let me be clear, the NPO herself is not the threat; the ideal of Francoism in which she enshrines is the true threat, an ideal that is changed from one emperor to the next to suit his needs, an ideal that gives him unlimited power by playing off the laws of nature and other ignorance. The ideal creates a system where conquest is not an option but rather a way of life.

One of the gravest mistakes ever made on planet bob is allowing the NPO, allowing Francoism to survive. The NPO will return to exact its revenge, and may Admin have mercy on us all. Now because of this fault military conquest is no longer an option, now other means must be sought and exploited to bring her down to let freedom reign. The NPO and her minions will return and our mistake will cost us dearly.

NPO isnt that big of a threat anymore. Sure they are back to sanction but who cares. There are many alliances willing to go to war with them again so if they do something stupid someone will declare on them again.