At Long Last, the End of the Karma War

[potato]

Yes. A rematch on fairer terms this time.

MK vs VE+GOD wouldn't have been fair ... for them.

[Big Z]

Fighting either of those two would be a pretty fun experience now that you bring it up.

But fighting babyjesus would be immoral and wrong D:

You are our savior after all.

Edited August 5, 2009 by Big Z

[Sandwich Controversy]

MK vs VE+GOD wouldn't have been fair ... for them.

Exactly.

But fighting babyjesus would be immoral and wrong D:

It hasn't stopped people in the past

[Essenia]

When I first heard a few weeks ago that that was NPO's plan I couldn't believe it. I doubt that more than 1 out of a hundred random CN players would believe it either. It really boggles the mind to imagine such a scenario happening.

[Vol Navy]

tC never had a chance no matter how this would have been handled at the kickoff of the war.

Karma had formed and was somewhat organized long before it kicked off.

Grub posted that he was approached by what became the Karma side long before the war started with what turned out to be very accurate matchup lists, he specifically called out some NPO "allies" at the time who were I guess listed on the Karma side.

Several Spartans admitted later in that thread that they'd been part of the planning in this war for months. Now that is a violation of Q. I am sure several others had a hand in it as well, their Gov just hasn't admitted it yet.

Gramlins were very clearly anti-NPO/Q once they got what they wanted out of it when Polaris was rolled and OoO was disolved. I see no way that TOP was ever going against them and I also have a hard time believing that TOP was surprised at all by what happened.

We saw what happened to OG in the Citadel by honoring their treaty.

This effort was planned and plotted, everyone just waited on the next war involving NPO to kickoff so the stomping could begin.

Now it's ended and nothing really matters to me about how or why this war was started except this...Look at how this war played out, look at how past wars played out and choose your allies with great care. Many of them have no interest in you other than what you can do for them. Once the storm appears on the horizon they are going to head for greener pastures, hell, they might even attack you a few days after they cancel an 18 month old treaty with you. To members of certain alliances, just remember, you can't run to the other side forever. Finally Karma will catch up with you in one of these wars.

Finally...

Thanks to all the people I fought along the way. There were many of you and some of you twice. I ate 44 nukes from you guys. Thanks to my brothers and sisters in TPF who stood shoulder to shoulder. Thanks to the alliances we fought for working out this peace. Thanks to all the good friends I lost in this war that have fallen off the planet or left TPF recently. You won't be forgotten, even after my nation is so many dust pixels floating in the wind.

[potato]

Karma had formed and was somewhat organized long before it kicked off.

No. Just no.

[Essenia]

tC never had a chance no matter how this would have been handled at the kickoff of the war.

Karma had formed and was somewhat organized long before it kicked off.

Grub posted that he was approached by what became the Karma side long before the war started with what turned out to be very accurate matchup lists, he specifically called out some NPO "allies" at the time who were I guess listed on the Karma side.

Several Spartans admitted later in that thread that they'd been part of the planning in this war for months. Now that is a violation of Q. I am sure several others had a hand in it as well, their Gov just hasn't admitted it yet.

Gramlins were very clearly anti-NPO/Q once they got what they wanted out of it when Polaris was rolled and OoO was disolved. I see no way that TOP was ever going against them and I also have a hard time believing that TOP was surprised at all by what happened.

We saw what happened to OG in the Citadel by honoring their treaty.

This effort was planned and plotted, everyone just waited on the next war involving NPO to kickoff so the stomping could begin.

Now it's ended and nothing really matters to me about how or why this war was started except this...Look at how this war played out, look at how past wars played out and choose your allies with great care. Many of them have no interest in you other than what you can do for them. Once the storm appears on the horizon they are going to head for greener pastures, hell, they might even attack you a few days after they cancel an 18 month old treaty with you. To members of certain alliances, just remember, you can't run to the other side forever. Finally Karma will catch up with you in one of these wars.

Finally...

Thanks to all the people I fought along the way. There were many of you and some of you twice. I ate 44 nukes from you guys. Thanks to my brothers and sisters in TPF who stood shoulder to shoulder. Thanks to the alliances we fought for working out this peace. Thanks to all the good friends I lost in this war that have fallen off the planet or left TPF recently. You won't be forgotten, even after my nation is so many dust pixels floating in the wind.

There is some truth to this, however, you're missing the obvious and pertinent fact that NPO had been plotting an ambush on SF and its allies for some months beforee the war began. Two sides played very similar games, one played terribly.

[Big Z]

MK vs VE+GOD wouldn't have been fair ... for them.

Of course not. THE babyjesus can do anything and everything, after all. Why anyone would want to willingly go against that force of nature boggles the mind, good sir. Any fine gentlemen, such as yourself, could this the foolishness of this endeavor.

[Dilber]

There is some truth to this, however, you're missing the obvious and pertinent fact that NPO had been plotting an ambush on SF and its allies for some months beforee the war began. Two sides played very similar games, one played terribly.

Actually we weren't. We had a clear CB a number of months prior, and ignored it.

[Essenia]

Actually we weren't. We had a clear CB a number of months prior, and ignored it.

You're referring to the VE-ODN-INT situation?

[Londo Mollari]

Because of their long held moral opposition to accepting screenshots.

Heh I imagine you know just as well as I that the CB that was used was one of many as an entry to the war. The war was planned for April, such and such entry point was chosen... my question is why did Hegemony go into a war they expected to most likely lose? Why not delay? Why not work on new treaties? Couldn't have turned out much worse than what ended up happening.

It did actually. It stated that MK would hit VE or GOD. Like I said, it wasn't a good plan.

Had TORN led off alone against OV, MK would have certainly had the option, although I believe that treaty has a non-chaining clause.

Edited August 5, 2009 by Londo Mollari

[Dilber]

You're referring to the VE-ODN-INT situation?

No, I'm referring to the Hoo logs. There were a lot more that hadn't gotten released.

[Sandwich Controversy]

You're referring to the VE-ODN-INT situation?

Nah, the Grinch-Hoo logs I'd imagine.

e:f;b

Edited August 5, 2009 by Sandwich Controversy

[Rafael Nadal]

If you need to confirm it, ask Archon. BigWoody spoke to him about how to keep C&G out days before the war began(IRON/TORN were both members of OUT with Vanguard, meaning Vanguard couldn't declare. MK "would side" with TORN.)

Kind of a recap of what the others have said, but yes, we we're expecting IRON/TORN to be the first wave due to their membership in OUT, and we were quite surprised when that did not occur. However, I don't know who came up with the theory that MK would side with TORN because clearly, that would not happen. Nobody in CnG would ever have fathomed, or even considered fighting along with Q/OV. I believe the only ties CnG had to Q/OV was MK's treaty with TORN, and our treaty with Echelon, which was signed before Echelon became known as Echelon, and obviously, before they joined OV.

All you have to do to dispel any wayward thought's of CnG joining with NPO and Co was look at the alliances in CnG and their history. Vanguard, who's core is? Who's leader is? No too mention the founding group, but many of our enlarged core is former ONOS and other alliances who didn't exactly end on the up and up with Pacifica. GR? Isn't the joke that they're NAAC or Atlantis 2.0? MK? After the blacklisting of them? Their membership would have revolted at the mere thought of fighting alongside NPO, especially since NPO had yet to be rolled, as in, you guys had never paid for your prior actions.

Had IRON/TORN been the first wave on OV, and assuming we didn't outright disregard/leave OUT, especially with my vehement disagreement and dislike of the ODP clause in the treaty, that only would have changed us from becoming involved on that initial front, like we did when NPO took up the reigns of the initial attack, to a subsequent front that would open up later on down the road. IIRC, a popular match that we thought would happen, when planning IRON/TORN on the initial attack, was OG.

Regardless, to sum it all up, lol @ anybody who planned on CnG siding with OV/Q. Whoever thought CnG would go with TORN, I wonder at the shock when Archon posted the opening Karma announcement.

[Essenia]

Nah, the Grinch-Hoo logs I'd imagine.

e:f;b

I stand corrected.

[Londo Mollari]

Kind of a recap of what the others have said, but yes, we we're expecting IRON/TORN to be the first wave due to their membership in OUT, and we were quite surprised when that did not occur. However, I don't know who came up with the theory that MK would side with TORN because clearly, that would not happen. Nobody in CnG would ever have fathomed, or even considered fighting along with Q/OV. I believe the only ties CnG had to Q/OV was MK's treaty with TORN, and our treaty with Echelon, which was signed before Echelon became known as Echelon, and obviously, before they joined OV.

Sparta was in the Continuum nearly up until the end, and Athens and Sparta share an MDoAP.

Perhaps someone was banking a bit on that, not realizing that Sparta would side with Karma.

[potato]

I'm glad me shouting "WE'RE GOING NEUTRAL: WE HAVE ALLIES ON BOTH SIDES" worked so efficiently.

[Kung Fu Geeks]

I will have to think about telling TORNs side of things from my perspective (given that i was a regent at the time which was basically directly below bigwoody) since I really have nothing stopping me.

Alot of things from both sides have been said that is wrong from my perspective, but then again bigwoody did play with his cards very close to his chest, so it is very likely that I had less information than others.

It may be an interesting topic, I will have to think on it.

Edited August 5, 2009 by Kung Fu Geeks

[Rafael Nadal]

I'm glad me shouting "WE'RE GOING NEUTRAL: WE HAVE ALLIES ON BOTH SIDES" worked so efficiently.

Nobody listens to you, and for good reason.

[SynthFG]

tC never had a chance no matter how this would have been handled at the kickoff of the war.

Karma had formed and was somewhat organized long before it kicked off.

No Just no

There had been some talks as to what to do about the expected summer offensive by 1V against Superfreinds,

But everybody was expecting that war later in the summer

Karma as in the command structure and decision to defend OV under a unified command was a very last minute thing thrown together in the final few hours before the war kicked off

[Steelrat]

Karma had formed and was somewhat organized long before it kicked off.

Grub posted that he was approached by what became the Karma side long before the war started with what turned out to be very accurate matchup lists, he specifically called out some NPO "allies" at the time who were I guess listed on the Karma side.

This effort was planned and plotted, everyone just waited on the next war involving NPO to kickoff so the stomping could begin.

I guess you should ask around for some IRC logs of #collective, read them and you would instantly know that Karma wasn´t prepared at all. Note: #collective was a hell of a leak and i won´t wonder if your gov has enough logs.

You can thank Liquid Mercury and enderland for your military defeat as the two were the main coordinators but don´t forget LM got into that position, if memory serves right, right after NPO declared.

There was clearly no detailed plan prior to the war, just the usual guessing and tossing around what could happen, who would be with whom and who could fight who.

Ask around, Grämlins had less or no contact to VE or any other C&G and superfriends alliance except for FARK and MK.

There was no masterplan, it´s a myth or you were feed propaganda.

Edited August 5, 2009 by Steelrat

[Haflinger]

Why the heck did you guys start the war if you knew you were going to lose it?

This is a really, really good question.

Vol Navy has pretty much given the answer. The argument put forth for starting the war was that if we didn't, things were only going to get worse; more people would defect to the other side.

I did not buy it then, and I still don't think it was right. If Continuum had collapsed on its own (which seems likely in retrospect), a whole lot of people would have been too happy about the end of Q to bother chasing down very large alliances on trumped-up CBs to right past wrongs.

If Continuum hadn't collapsed, if it had shifted into becoming basically a purely defensive treaty (as it was pretty much designed to be in the start), people still would not have been looking to create CBs on NPO, TPF, IRON and the others in order to right past wrongs, with guns like TOP and MHA still around to defend them.

[bigwoody]

Bigwoody provided the evidence that OV spied on NPO.

You're lying or misinformed.

And as far as us believing MK would come in on our behalf by the time the war started...no. Archon joined the negotiations to try and get a peace agreement hammered out because he was stuck in the middle. Personally, I'm sorry that we failed him on that regard. I know what being stuck between allies is like, its not fun. I take some blame for him even being in that position. But at the same time, I can't undo the war starting the way it did.

[Lennox]

You're lying or misinformed.

And as far as us believing MK would come in on our behalf by the time the war started...no. Archon joined the negotiations to try and get a peace agreement hammered out because he was stuck in the middle. Personally, I'm sorry that we failed him on that regard. I know what being stuck between allies is like, its not fun. I take some blame for him even being in that position. But at the same time, I can't undo the war starting the way it did.

I've seen otherwise.

[Lord Brendan]

Ordo Verde was a poor choice for starting the war IMO. One of very few alliances (possibly the only one?) that draws in SuperFriends AND C&G. In a purely practical sense, you should have picked someone like CRAP that would have drawn in a fair amount of people but not enough to make it a fair fight. SuperFriends would have been crushed eventually and then in a few months you could have dealt with Frostbite or Citadel.

Edited August 5, 2009 by Lord Brendan