At Long Last, the End of the Karma War

[BamaBuc]

Depends on whether you interpret complaining about the inconsistency of terms and then making pessimistic calls about the future as whining.

Regardless, if he labels others as whiners then I felt it necessary to point out that his post was, in fact, more akin to "whining" than any that the people he labelled as whiners made.

To be fair, the terms in this war WERE inconsistent. But that's the result of having such a large number of alliances fighting, all of whom are sovereign and all of whom had different ideas about how to end the war. Hence, I think it's wrong to put all that on the shoulders of one "Karma" entity. But he is right that the terms were inconsistent, and he obviously holds that practice in contempt and believes it will continue.

Then I see where you were going with it. Though I don't think either he or those disagreeing with him were whining.

-Bama

[Seerow]

To be fair, the terms in this war WERE inconsistent. But that's the result of having such a large number of alliances fighting, all of whom are sovereign and all of whom had different ideas about how to end the war. Hence, I think it's wrong to put all that on the shoulders of one "Karma" entity. But he is right that the terms were inconsistent, and he obviously holds that practice in contempt and believes it will continue.

Then I see where you were going with it. Though I don't think either he or those disagreeing with him were whining.

-Bama

Please stop your whining about others complaining about whining, all this whining is quite annoying at this point.

!@#$ now I'm whining too. Look at what you've done to us all!

[Tygaland]

Please stop your whining about others complaining about whining, all this whining is quite annoying at this point.

!@#$ now I'm whining too. Look at what you've done to us all!

Quit whining, whiner.

[AgentofChaos]

Glad to see this conflict finally finished. Congrats to all you who fought in this bloody war, on either side.

And now back to my hole in da shadows. AWAAAAAAY

[BamaBuc]

Quit whining, whiner.

Don't you whine at him for whining about my whining over you whining about Kevin's whining!

I make myself dizzy sometimes.

-Bama

[AgentofChaos]

Don't you whine at him for whining about my whining over you whining about Kevin's whining!

I make myself dizzy sometimes.

-Bama

Yay whining?

[zzzptm]

TPF didn't bail, not in the final analysis. Whatever hesitancy there may have been at the start has been atoned for by the blood of the nations that fought to the very end of this massive war.

They fought well and they fought with honor. What others may have done should be for discussion in other locations. Here is where the warriors climb out of the trenches, share their cigarettes, and start a football match.

This war is over. What's done is done. Accusations dishonor the nobility of the stand of TPF. Whatever their losses in men and material, they really have gained a great deal in respect and honor in the eyes of many, including this author.

If we were to give out achievement awards for this war, TPF would get "Most Improved PR Image" for this conflict.

So let that be a lesson to us all: If your alliance stands and fights to honor a treaty, it wins in the long run.

[ChairmanHal]

Let me get the timeline straight.

1. NPO, TPF and TORN attempts to trump up "charges" against OV.

2. OV doesn't give in your bullying.

3. You declare war on OV.

4. Immediately after the NPO realize they've bitten off more then they can chew and attempts to use the 'Undo' button which fails because the NPO won't admit they are in the wrong.

5. Bigwoody supposedly runs around telling everyone NPO is going to 'bail' on the war.

6. The Coalition of Cowards realizes time is urgent. The CoC must cancel all their treaties with the NPO before they 'bail' on the war or something very bad, which we won't go into details about, would have happened.

Makes perfect sense.

The sequence I was given and participated in went more like this:

1. Member of OV accepts intelligence from a third party and is soon accused of spying. Whether the incident was set up by others or not, is in question, but we'll continue down this path for now.

2. OV member is busted, threats are made against OV, and OV doesn't cave. This is because it has reassurances from Karma that they will be backed up. OV would have no reason to even consider taking a stand if it thought that only its closest allies would be in on the fight.

3. NPO is dragged back in for one last round of negotiations, having already made its mind up it will declare war and that the timetable for launching the assault will not change. This later leads to allegations of NPO negotiating in bad faith and attacking during negotiations.

4. NPO, TORN declare war on OV.

This is where things get fuzzy on the timeline...

5. Immediately after the NPO realize they've bitten off more then they can chew and attempts to use the 'Undo' button which fails because the NPO won't admit they are in the wrong.

6. Bigwoody supposedly runs around telling everyone NPO is going to 'bail' on the war.

The version I've heard flips 6 and 5 and changes the details. Thus...

5. Bigwoody perhaps sensing the trap, hearing of NPO's last minute negotiations, attempts to bail TORN out of the war. Informs his allies of this fact. Many of NPO's allies are left wondering what's going on, attempt to contact NPO and get...static. Nothing.

6. NPO finds itself on unfamiliar ground. At war and unable to trust allies that it always assumed would be there like TOP, Unable to count on allies it thought would serve to prevent a coalition from forming against it like MHA, and even members of 1V such as IRON asking what the hell is going on. Maybe they too sensed the trap--too late. Any attempt at negotiating out of this one is denied.

7. As has been outlined in previous posts in this thread, there were no cowards here. There were people going emo at the thought that the rest of Q might not walk into the trap with NPO, but of course, that was never going to happen. The "peace" factions that existed in the various alliances simply weren't strong enough. Valhalla, TPF, IRON, et al. were bound by Q to NPO whatever other essentially symbolic cancellations were made to express displeasure at the lack of communication and other issues and anyone who could read English knew that.

Final thoughts:

Did NPO "trump up" the spy charges? Not really. Could the matter have been settled without war? Yes. Whatever the motivation of the individual negotiators, however, there were very clearly other agendas in play.

It has been my pleasure, my annoyance, my burden at times to be a party to and a witness of the most significant events in CN history. This most recent event changed things. No more prancing around the king and currying favor. Whether the change you will get is the change you thought you were getting...you'll have to stick around to find out.

[Roadie]

Depends on whether you interpret complaining about the inconsistency of terms and then making pessimistic calls about the future as whining.

Regardless, if he labels others as whiners then I felt it necessary to point out that his post was, in fact, more akin to "whining" than any that the people he labelled as whiners made.

All I saw in that post was an observation and a comment reflecting open cynicism. Neither of which shares a similar definition with whining.

An on topic whine: It would have been much cheaper for us to have left the war early.

These terms turned out more interestnig than I had thought they would. Props to them peeps what worked out this rangement.

[Delta1212]

He had 5 and 6 in the right order. I watched both happen in real time. 5 sort of started before six and then extended past it, though.

[sawser@yahoo.com]

I had almost forgotten what it was like to collect more taxes per day than pay bills!

Hard fought on both sides.

o/

[potato]

Your "facts" are already wrong on #2, ChairmanHal.

[Archon]

He had 5 and 6 in the right order. I watched both happen in real time. 5 sort of started before six and then extended past it, though.

Just stopping in to support the Cupcake. As one of the major figures (OOC: that sounds silly and pompous no matter how I word it ) in those events, I think I have a fairly clear memory of how it went down.

[Heyman]

Oh man, TPF guys come one, stop that hidden whining, the we were wronged by XXX attitude. I hail all those TPF members who didn´t fall for that kind of attitude, the others i despise.

Lets see, even IF , bolded and underlined, there was a vicious plot to bring down you and NPO and all the other "hegemony" alliances get over it. YOU LOST.

And that counts even more for the special "propaganda" brigade in NPO, guys i know you have to write that stuff but i assume most of you are smart and intelligent so i really hope you guys believe not one letter you wrote yourself. Little hint, if not things like that could lead to schizophrenia.

However who am i to judge about you guys, so i rest my case and let you live in your little dream world.

...duh? We surrendered. And this is the surrender thread. Where we surrender. AKA admit defeat.

Whatever you are trying to analyze, you might want to fix those scanners first.

[Bjornoya]

Please stop your whining about others complaining about whining, all this whining is quite annoying at this point.

!@#$ now I'm whining too. Look at what you've done to us all!

Someone got it...

Well since any negative interpretation of a scenario is labeled 'whining,' I look forward to this glorious new era of being mocked for seeing the game for what it is.

No you!

[Axel Foley]

Whining can be an interesting subject i suppose but not in this thread, please stay on topic.

[ChairmanHal]

He had 5 and 6 in the right order. I watched both happen in real time. 5 sort of started before six and then extended past it, though.

Entirely possible. As someone else told me the situation was more, "complicated" than some made it out to be. That much I very much agree with.

[Gn0xious Jr]

If you have 2 equal MADPs with opposing sides, with conflicting stories... would it be wrong to declare "nuetrality" in the conflict until the stories can be confirmed? In doing so, I would assume that you would be able to NOT cancel in a time of war, clarify the correct path, THEN take appropriate action?

also

@Dahl

from your previous posts, if NPO was withholding information from its allies, then Coalition of Cowards is incorrect, as is Coalition of the Deceived... it would be Coalition of the Deceived by NPO.

[Ogaden]

Hindsight being 20/20 of course, I offer the following: knowing that you couldn't count on OPSEC without damaging foreign relations, perhaps the better play was to always assume that what you said would be on the OWF the next day and operate in the open. Having a ready answer when questions arise can be easier than avoiding the questions in the first place.

This is, sadly, exactly how we did operate. And yes, what we told our allies did usually end up on the OWF the next day, thanks to spies in very high places.

Edited August 5, 2009 by James Dahl

[Ogaden]

@Dahl

from your previous posts, if NPO was withholding information from its allies, then Coalition of Cowards is incorrect, as is Coalition of the Deceived... it would be Coalition of the Deceived by NPO.

If you'd rather call them that then that's fine, but we never lied to our allies.

You don't understand that we WANTED to tell them everything, but we couldn't, unless we wanted to basically tell the whole world. Maybe we should have just thrown opsec out the window, I don't know.

[Gn0xious Jr]

If you'd rather call them that then that's fine, but we never lied to our allies.

You don't understand that we WANTED to tell them everything, but we couldn't, unless we wanted to basically tell the whole world. Maybe we should have just thrown opsec out the window, I don't know.

well, i guess the point is... if NPO knowlingly withheld pertinent information, it was doing NPO a disservice.

Still, if your allies were willing to cancel a treaty without verifying the information, then that still raises a red flag (in my opinion) in the strength of the relationship. As I was asking before, would it have been so terrible to declare nuetrality while verifying information, versus throwing away the treaty entirely? In TPF's case, it was already explained that their cancelation was due to a rash decision, which they later corrected.

[BamaBuc]

He had 5 and 6 in the right order. I watched both happen in real time. 5 sort of started before six and then extended past it, though.

I think you're right. From what I've been able to piece together, NPO was trying to negotiate peace for them and TORN. TORN told everyone that NPO was only seeking peace for themselves. Whether this was deliberate or a result of miscommunication I do not know.

-Bama

[King Srqt]

I think you're right. From what I've been able to piece together, NPO was trying to negotiate peace for them and TORN. TORN told everyone that NPO was only seeking peace for themselves. Whether this was deliberate or a result of miscommunication I do not know.

-Bama

All that I know is that it was easy to interpret that NPO was only looking for its own peace (though they nvere said it directly so it may not have been the case)

I also know that certain IO's were very eager to throw TORN under teh bus by saying that it was "TORN's war" and that NPO was only supporting their allies in TORN in entering the war while trying to get peace.

[Shurukian]

Well, I've kept my mouth shut long enough, so I think it's time I open it.

So there was one secret term in the TPF surrender. And yes, it would be why mhawk left, and why TPF surrendered so fast and abruptly...

Scandal Scandal Etcetera.

I informed Mhawk that his life was in danger from opposing forces, and that he must flee the area to save his dear life, or face a horrible event. [OOC]I told mhawk I wouldn't pick him up from the airport unless TPF surrendered. So it happened as he was flying out. And if I didn't pick him up, Jbone was gonna, and we all know how scary that would be.[/OOC]

So yes, the dear secrets of mhawk's name not being on the surrender terms. Such a horrible leader.

Edited August 5, 2009 by Shurukian

[Coven]

hahaha, Nice Shuru.

ermm.. yes. This is the official stance.