TPF's Response to Terms Offered

[Jens of the desert]

PC cancelled the pact completely legitimately. What is the problem?

[Kilkenny]

$84,000,000, 450 tech, and no building MPs and SDIs isn't reps?

Don't play stupid.

Those reps went to rebuild the nation who was attacked by rogues. Rogues you slot filled so we couldn't attack. Then didn't attack until we raised hell about it.

[Petrovich4]

Won't swallow the poison pill?

Goodbye.

Edited July 25, 2009 by Petrovich4

[Sir Wellington]

I'm not even IN PC anymore, you make no sense, ever.

And yes, I am saying they shouldn't pay those reps. They WON. They set the terms this time around, not you.

No offense Greenacres, but your logic is pretty weak.

You make a HUGE assumption that the wording was intended for TPF to use against PC. Do you have ANY justification for this claim besides your omniscience. You keep crying that they "found" it first and TPF had intentions to use it... again find me some proof besides what you wipe with.

So lets look at the facts here:

1: TPF came into this war AFTER after NPO was declared on by 10+ alliances (thereby defensive)

2: PC and TPF had a NAP and THEY cancelled it to declare on TPF because of a MADP with TDK (not sure exactly how that was justified besides that they wanted on the dogpile, congrats)

3: Almost every other alliance that surrendered to Karma got white peace (even those who were involved in the same things as TPF)... so by NOT saving our pixels and backing out, we are being further punished for having honor. Dont see the logic here.

Greed is a smelly perfume.

[delendum]

Well, it's refreshing to see the real reasons being admitted to.

Now we can all just wait until you either learn to swallow your pride or just FAN yourself out. While not involved in the talks, I highly doubt the reps to PC will be lifted. You present a constant insult to PC, this is not how a defeated alliance should behave itself when looking for peace. Why? Because PC is under no obligation to submit to your will, and on MK's side, we have exhausted all we were willing to compromise (which was quite a lot).

Stick to your pride and let your alliance burn, if that's what you're looking for.

[flak attack]

It was poorly worded by someone, not mhawk, who had never written a NAP before. That is all. No behind the scenes game or ulterior motive. Just a simple mistake.

And it was written at a time we could have rolled PC, but didn't.

No you couldn't. IIRC FOK refused to drop their treaty with PC, meaning that you couldn't attack them without violating the Modius Accords. You settled for the next best thing and created an NAP you could later break at a moment's notice once you could come up with a good enough CB to get FOK to drop their treaty.

Edited July 25, 2009 by flak attack

[delendum]

No offense Greenacres, but your logic is pretty weak.

You make a HUGE assumption that the wording was intended for TPF to use against PC. Do you have ANY justification for this claim besides your omniscience. You keep crying that they "found" it first and TPF had intentions to use it... again find me some proof besides what you wipe with.

So lets look at the facts here:

1: TPF came into this war AFTER after NPO was declared on by 10+ alliances (thereby defensive)

2: PC and TPF had a NAP and THEY cancelled it to declare on TPF because of a MADP with TDK (not sure exactly how that was justified besides that they wanted on the dogpile, congrats)

3: Almost every other alliance that surrendered to Karma got white peace (even those who were involved in the same things as TPF)... so by NOT saving our pixels and backing out, we are being further punished for having honor. Dont see the logic here.

Greed is a smelly perfume.

1. TPF was part of the original aggressive body, TPF was highly involved in the "negotiations" before the war, and fully backed NPO's aggressive stance.

2. The NAP was a very interestingly worded treaty. Considering it was signed at a time where TPF held the upper hand over PC, I tend to think TPF is slightly more pissed off they didn't get to break it first, when they still had power.

3. TPF refused to surrender or even discuss peace before NPO left the field. They have closed that door themselves.

[Atanatar]

TPF is still butt hurt that PC legally followed the cancellation clause of a treaty to the letter? Good lord, they will whine to anything.

[youwish959]

Here's the usual line of thought of you and serveral other people in your alliance (from what ive seen):

Comment -> generalization -> drawing conclusions of your own -> accusing commenting party of said conclusions -> putting fingers in both ears and sing "LALALA"

Actually the reason I ask is you and Bob Janova were the only members on the Gramlins Council of Archons at the time of signing the Continuum. And you have both now spoken out against the Continuum, which seems a little odd.

[Fortune]

No offense Greenacres, but your logic is pretty weak.

You make a HUGE assumption that the wording was intended for TPF to use against PC. Do you have ANY justification for this claim besides your omniscience. You keep crying that they "found" it first and TPF had intentions to use it... again find me some proof besides what you wipe with.

So lets look at the facts here:

1: TPF came into this war AFTER after NPO was declared on by 10+ alliances (thereby defensive)

2: PC and TPF had a NAP and THEY cancelled it to declare on TPF because of a MADP with TDK (not sure exactly how that was justified besides that they wanted on the dogpile, congrats)

3: Almost every other alliance that surrendered to Karma got white peace (even those who were involved in the same things as TPF)... so by NOT saving our pixels and backing out, we are being further punished for having honor. Dont see the logic here.

Greed is a smelly perfume.

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right, greed works. Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Greed, in all of its forms; greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge has marked the upward surge of mankind. And greed, you mark my words, will not only save The Phoenix Federation, but that other malfunctioning corporation called the Planet Bob. Thank you very much.

Edited July 25, 2009 by Fortune

[delendum]

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right, greed works. Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Greed, in all of its forms; greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge has marked the upward surge of mankind. And greed, you mark my words, will not only save The Phoenix Federation, but that other malfunctioning corporation called the Planet Bob. Thank you very much.

Have you read the OP? TPF clearly admits the terms weren't unreasonable, but that they refuse to pay anything to PC. This thread is about TPF's pride, though the greed spin is slightly amusing, I will admit. Surely it must be because we're all greedy that poor abused TPF finds itself in this dire situation where they simply CAN'T accept the terms.

Considering TPF's arrogance to this whole situation, I'm surprised PC is not raising the amount they ask for, forget about giving it up.

[Captain Flinders]

But California wasn't in the war, it was a tech raid by PC that shouldn't have happened. PC stopped it, and agreed to pay reps for the mistake. The question is where are the reps, and why you don't want them to pay, when the Tech raid Rules you wrote ssay they should.

Why are you derailing a thread made by your own leadership? The California situation has nothing to do with TPF refusing to pay reps. Your attempt to distract from the actual points at hand are not appreciated. But feel free to disregard this post. OBM saw fit to disregard the post where I dismantled his terribly flawed OP. It's something TPF does well.

[Owned-You]

TPF, you need to swallow your pride and end this already; the reasons for this war to continue are heading towards the ground of being petty and juvenile, all of which caused by your own doing.

Seriously, just grow up.

[OneBallMan]

Why are you derailing a thread made by your own leadership? The California situation has nothing to do with TPF refusing to pay reps. Your attempt to distract from the actual points at hand are not appreciated. But feel free to disregard this post. OBM saw fit to disregard the post where I dismantled his terribly flawed OP. It's something TPF does well.

I ignored your post because it was silly. Not for any great leap of logic.

[Thistledown]

It was poorly worded by someone, not mhawk, who had never written a NAP before. That is all. No behind the scenes game or ulterior motive. Just a simple mistake.

And it was written at a time we could have rolled PC, but didn't.

Er. Didn't mhawk and the rest of the gov sign said NAP? Which would suggest that they did, in fact read the actual document beforehand? So basically, either your government signed this NAP without reading it, signed it and didn't notice that the cancellation clause was ridiculous, or they were fully aware of the fact that the NAP could be cancelled on a whim.

Any way you look at it, it's not pretty.

[TypoNinja]

TPF could have broken the treaty

PC Did.

Those are not equal.

No no, you missed the point. Thanks to spectacularly poor (Or smart?) wording what you had was a treaty that could NOT be violated. The way it was written the only way to cancel it was for one party to attack the other.

[OneBallMan]

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right, greed works. Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Greed, in all of its forms; greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge has marked the upward surge of mankind. And greed, you mark my words, will not only save The Phoenix Federation, but that other malfunctioning corporation called the Planet Bob. Thank you very much.

You, my friend, have won this thread.

[Finster Baby]

I must say, having read this whole thread I find the e-lawyering to be both amusing and maddening.

That said, I sympathize with my friends at TPF over their circumstances.

Also, there has to be middle ground here. I find that requiring TPF to pay PC 20k tech, the SAME AMOUNT of technology required to be paid by IRON to RoK to be excessive, especially when TPF is easily 1/5 the size of IRON. TPF honored their treaty to the end. To subject them to that kind of term is greed at its finest.

Note I'm not getting involved with the treaty stuff. IMO, it's really a moot point.

If PC is the hold up, then why can't more pressure be placed on PC to be lenient - especially if the rest of the Karma Alliances are ready to work this out??

Like I said, I'm sure this can be worked out - if EVERYONE comes down off their high horses.

Have a good day.

[delendum]

I must say, having read this whole thread I find the e-lawyering to be both amusing and maddening.

That said, I sympathize with my friends at TPF over their circumstances.

Also, there has to be middle ground here. I find that requiring TPF to pay PC 20k tech, the SAME AMOUNT of technology required to be paid by IRON to RoK to be excessive, especially when TPF is easily 1/5 the size of IRON. TPF honored their treaty to the end. To subject them to that kind of term is greed at its finest.

Note I'm not getting involved with the treaty stuff. IMO, it's really a moot point.

If PC is the hold up, then why can't more pressure be placed on PC to be lenient - especially if the rest of the Karma Alliances are ready to work this out??

Like I said, I'm sure this can be worked out - if EVERYONE comes down off their high horses.

Have a good day.

The overall amount of reps asked is far from excessive or greedy. TPF only has a problem with the reps going to PC, not the amount itself.

PC is not the hold up, Mhawk's pride is. Depends how you look at things, doesn't it? PC is lenient, PC is excessively lenient considering the amount of insults it receives from TPF. Acting on that alone, they could just refuse to offer peace altogether. Lets not forget TPF lost this war, I fail to see how anybody is under any sort of obligation to get this conflict solved when the defeated party seems to afford the luxury of declining reasonable terms on account of their pride.

We have compromised, but somehow TPF still seems to think getting peace from "the dogs" is something they can control and shape.

[flak attack]

Also, there has to be middle ground here. I find that requiring TPF to pay PC 20k tech, the SAME AMOUNT of technology required to be paid by IRON to RoK to be excessive, especially when TPF is easily 1/5 the size of IRON. TPF honored their treaty to the end. To subject them to that kind of term is greed at its finest.

You seem to be forgetting that nice $1.5 billion, which if changed to tech would have more than tripled the tech IRON would have to pay and that Rok was expecting tech from NPO, which PC won't be getting.

Edited July 25, 2009 by flak attack

[Finster Baby]

You seem to be forgetting that nice $1.5 billion, which if changed to tech would have more than tripled IRON's tech reps.

I was using the tech number as a comparasion. Nothing more.

[Matthew Conrad]

I was using the tech number as a comparasion. Nothing more.

It seems the main thing, as addressed by TPF in this thread, is that they aren't willing to give a single reparation to PC. Even if PC were to halve or take a fourth of their currently offered reps, TPF is saying they still wouldn't pay it. I personally think those alliances are willing to work further with TPF on reps but it seems TPF's statement effectively prevents it.

[Gruthenia]

Man you TPF guys are almost as butthurt as we MKers. Except all you have to whine about is a freaking NAP and your own stubbornness.

[Unko Kalaikz]

The ironic part of this is that if it was the NPO holding TPF at war for three months then requiring fairly sizable terms from a war torn and shattered alliance, we'd probably hearing these same people arguing for the terms proclaiming how evil the NPO was for doing such to an alliance that entered the war knowing full well what would happen just to support an ally.

Absolutely.

Welcome to Cyber Nations, a Double Standards game.

[shilo]

Absolutely.

Welcome to Cyber Nations, a Double Standards game.

I for one wished that those that easily support viceroys, secret peaceterms and crippling reparations were equally tough in taking much more lenient terms when being on the receiving end for a change.

That really wouldn't be double standards anymore.