So... Now What?

[Ragashingo]

I think he's referring to alliances such as Sparta which were members of Q up until the last second but are now considered leaders of the side that was formerly Karma.

Okay maybe they aren't innocent of crimes, etc, but they did help bring down the NPO, the ring leader of the whole thing. In my book that helps off set anything else they've done. I'm pretty neutral on Sparta and similar alliances and am waiting to see what they do next.

[Rebel Virginia]

Okay maybe they aren't innocent of crimes, etc, but they did help bring down the NPO, the ring leader of the whole thing. In my book that helps off set anything else they've done. I'm pretty neutral on Sparta and similar alliances and am waiting to see what they do next.

They turned on NPO because it was in their best interest to do so. I really do fail to see how someone acting in their best interest somehow makes them a saint.

Okay, now I understand you're still bitter over GATO, however, would it hurt you to think objectively for once, and stop thinking that whenever someone does something bad to the NPO it somehow makes them good? It clouds your judgment you see, and gives you the idea that somehow Sparta has righted itself of its wrongs. Not the case. In fact, such a sentiment amongst people, yourself included, has only given them a sense of arrogance about them. In time that will only build, and you'll see that it isn't a good thing.

But yes, they sided with Karma because it looked like Karma was going to win. However, they would have just as easily sided with the NPO had it looked like they were going to win. So how does siding with the side that was going to win give Sparta a clean slate? It doesn't make any sense. Mind explaining your logic, oh wise one?

[Ragashingo]

I guess having any respect for those who actually stay the course is a lesson yet to be learned.

You mean the TPF? Why would I respect them? All they did was stupidly sacrifice their alliance for someone who would never have done the same for them in return. Maybe next time they'll decide not to support those who griefted numerous individuals and alliances over a two year period.

[Ragashingo]

They turned on NPO because it was in their best interest to do so. I really do fail to see how someone acting in their best interest somehow makes them a saint.

Okay, now I understand you're still bitter over GATO, however, would it hurt you to think objectively for once, and stop thinking that whenever someone does something bad to the NPO it somehow makes them good? It clouds your judgment you see, and gives you the idea that somehow Sparta has righted itself of its wrongs. Not the case. In fact, such a sentiment amongst people, yourself included, has only given them a sense of arrogance about them. In time that will only build, and you'll see that it isn't a good thing.

But yes, they sided with Karma because it looked like Karma was going to win. However, they would have just as easily sided with the NPO had it looked like they were going to win. So how does siding with the side that was going to win give Sparta a clean slate? It doesn't make any sense. Mind explaining your logic, oh wise one?

Sigh...

I'd answer your questions if you'd actually read my other responses or portrayed me even close to how I am. I specifically said I am neutral on Sparta, not that they were saints, not that they had a clean slate. I am also not bitter over GATO, not anymore. Just the other day I called for everyone to give the NPO a clean slate saying that they had paid for their actions in the Karma War. Heck the only part you got right was me being wise.

Ultimately you are nothing but a troll of the highest order and aren't worth responding to. It's sad because you could be so much more but always choose not to be. So this will be my last reply to you, ever, unless you decide to drop the sarcasm and actually ask questions that make sense in relation to what I've said and done.

Good day.

[Deuterium Dawn]

What I learned is that nothing really changes.

[Tygaland]

Sigh...

I'd answer your questions if you'd actually read my other responses or portrayed me even close to how I am. I specifically said I am neutral on Sparta, not that they were saints, not that they had a clean slate. I am also not bitter over GATO, not anymore. Just the other day I called for everyone to give the NPO a clean slate saying that they had paid for their actions in the Karma War. Heck the only part you got right was me being wise.

Ultimately you are nothing but a troll of the highest order and aren't worth responding to. It's sad because you could be so much more but always choose not to be. So this will be my last reply to you, ever, unless you decide to drop the sarcasm and actually ask questions that make sense in relation to what I've said and done.

Good day.

You really don't expect people to read your posts and comment on what you actually said, do you?

Funny that RV actually does what he accuses you of by jumping to conclusions based on who posts rather than what they post. Funny, but not surprising.

[Gecko]

Why would anyone listen to what someone not in their alliance has to say about their relatons with another alliance? Ragashingo was making a suggestion for alliances to do so on their own. If someone tried to tell me that they thought one of my treaties should be cancelled, and they weren't in my alliance, I'd completely ignore them.

Haha

Come on guys! You people in STA should know that I like small arguments for fun!

It's just who I am. I just posted the first answer that popped into my head

EDIT: Perhaps I should come up with better answers...

Edited July 22, 2009 by King Alias

[Il Principe]

It couldn't be about justice, or else several of those Karma alliances, such as Sparta, MHA, Gremlins, TOP, and FOK, and others either formerly in the Continuum or allied to it, such as the Superfriends, would have had to answer for what they did while benefiting from the Pax Pacifica.

So what crimes did MHA commit? I do not know any accept maybe letting things happen by other alliances. And that is something all alliances did. For instance MHA was not involved in the war against GPA or the long viceroy-terms for GATO. In fact, I'm sure we spoke out against it in private channels! How much more did these 'KARMA' alliances do?

They turned on NPO because it was in their best interest to do so. I really do fail to see how someone acting in their best interest somehow makes them a saint.

Uhh I do not know, but did you have a look at the balances of power before this war? If TOP, Sparta, and MHA had chosen to back the other side Hegemony would have won! We would still have the safety of the largest powerbloc in the cyberverse. These alliances only chose to get out of the Continuum because we could no longer felt at home in this bloc due to bad relationships and communication within caused by policies we did not support. (for instance declaring war against OV)

I agree with you we are no saints, we make mistakes, but do not speak crap about "it was in their own interest".

Edited July 22, 2009 by Il Principe

[Rebel Virginia]

So what crimes did MHA commit? I do not know any accept maybe letting things happen by other alliances. And that is something all alliances did. For instance MHA was not involved in the war against GPA or the long viceroy-terms for GATO. In fact, I'm sure we spoke out against it in private channels! How much more did these 'KARMA' alliances do?

Your crime was doing nothing. You gave your tacit support to the NPO Hegemony. As for speaking out in "private channels." A whole lot of good that did. As for the rest of "Karma," with the exception of a small few alliances, you're all guilty.

Uhh I do not know, but did you have a look at the balances of power before this war? If TOP, Sparta, and MHA had chosen to back the other side Hegemony would have won! We would still have the safety of the largest powerbloc in the cyberverse. These alliances only chose to get out of the Continuum because we could no longer felt at home in this bloc due to bad relationships and communication within caused by policies we did not support. (for instance declaring war against OV)

I agree with you we are no saints, we make mistakes, but do not speak crap about "it was in their own interest".

I sincerely doubt you overestimate your contribution to the conflict. Let's see, TOP with their non-nuclear agreement, and attacking alliances which were already on the verge of defeat. Sparta and their "blitzes." And MHA.... I don't want to toot my own horn, but yeah, I'm pretty sure we could have done it without you. And also, even if you were on the other side, Karma still would have had a lot more NS than you. Sure the fight might have been a bit more difficult for Karma, but it still would have been a sure victory.

No, you knew who was going to win. So please, just stop. You're not fooling anyone. Least of all myself.

[ShinRa]

Your crime was doing nothing. You gave your tacit support to the NPO Hegemony. As for speaking out in "private channels." A whole lot of good that did. As for the rest of "Karma," with the exception of a small few alliances, you're all guilty.

If doing nothing is a crime, then just about every single person here has been guilty of it at one point or another. Originally I only ever got involved in Vox Populi due to the NPO led attack on GATO and it’s allies, before that I honestly didn’t care what happened everywhere else but within my alliance.

I'll admit that it would have been better if a few of the larger alliances had begun to work against the Hegemony sooner but people seem to naturally just look to what's directly ahead of them, and turn a blind eye to what does not involve them until it's too late.

It's just the way things are.

Edited July 22, 2009 by ShinRa

[D34th]

I have a very important question to ask, RV why your post with blue letters? This is really annoying to read.

Use may this blue if you need be different please.

[Rebel Virginia]

If doing nothing is a crime, then just about every single person here has been guilty of it at one point or another. Originally I only ever got involved in Vox Populi due to the NPO led attack on GATO and it’s allies, before that I honestly didn’t care what happened everywhere else but within my alliance.

I'll admit that it would have been better if a few of the larger alliances had begun to work against the Hegemony sooner but people seem to naturally just look to what's directly ahead of them, and turn a blind eye to what does not involve them until it's too late.

It's just the way things are.

Well, then allow me to rephrase that. Its not that they didn't do anything, it is that they knowingly provided NPO with the support base they needed in order to do the things they did. Even if they were not among the prime offenders (not to say that there weren't any offenses). There is a difference between being outside the hegemony and minding your own business and actively supporting, and effectively guaranteeing, its continued existence.

Ultimately you are nothing but a troll of the highest order and aren't worth responding to. It's sad because you could be so much more but always choose not to be. So this will be my last reply to you, ever, unless you decide to drop the sarcasm and actually ask questions that make sense in relation to what I've said and done.

No, I quoted you word for word. Sure, maybe I do an exaggeration here or there, but I do that to get my point across. Point is you said it yourself. You forgave Sparta, despite their wrong doings. Am I the only one who remembers how they killed Big Biz and tried to target Illuminati? I thought so.

As for my "sarcasm," no, I'm just direct. Listen, I know I'm not dull, and I am more than sure that I'm ruffling a few feathers, but that's how I roll. Yeah, it upset the NPO when I was against them, but you know what, you people cheered me on then. Why, because I was your SOB then. My style hasn't changed, just my environment. And guess what, I don't plan on changing. Being dull and pretending to be nice and reasonable, not my style, cause Rebel Virginia ain't a pretender. Rebel Virgina has to be free, dawg. Rebel Virginia can't be chained. Dig it?

[D34th]

If doing nothing is a crime, then just about every single person here has been guilty of it at one point or another. Originally I only ever got involved in Vox Populi due to the NPO led attack on GATO and it’s allies, before that I honestly didn’t care what happened everywhere else but within my alliance.

I'll admit that it would have been better if a few of the larger alliances had begun to work against the Hegemony sooner but people seem to naturally just look to what's directly ahead of them, and turn a blind eye to what does not involve them until it's too late.

It's just the way things are.

I have to agree with Edmund Burke when he said "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." but one thing is do nothing, other is be part of the power bloc who ruled the world and allied to the evil NPO. While those who do nothing are negligent, those who were part of the hegemony, allied with the evil NPO and supported or had part in their "crimes" accomplices of the "crimes"

Edited July 22, 2009 by D34th

[gamaliel]

So alliances are going to start doing this because you said? I think one person from a neutral, political standpoint should review all the alliances treaties. That would bring more attention to the alliances government about the worth of their treaties.

I think what he means is that alliances should look more carefully at their treaties and who they think is actually going to stick by them when the treaty actually matters. It is a lesson learned from the Karma war that this should happen. Not a requirement of outside review, just that alliances should be more aware of which treaties will actually stand under fire.

PS Geaux Tigers

[KingEsus]

I would accept points 1,2 & 3 in the OP.

Personally i learned a lot about my own alliance. Firstly, that i was not... erm fully aware of everything that it was doing over the last year or two. Some of this was not very good. Secondly that the alliance was far stronger than i anticipated, i was concerned, like others were, that we had an entire generation who had never known defeat, but they stuck together admirably.

I also learned that the cliché 'power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely', appears to be true in CN. A stern talking to may have been required, bankruptcy is another thing entirely. And most alliances will act like bullies as soon as they get the means.

Finally, i learned through observing and posts and actions that some alliances I had admired for a long time, I no longer think very highly of, whereas four in particular; the STA, NpO, NSO, MHA (ok so i always loved NpO...) have just stood out as having amazing members and intelligent posters.

I just learned a lot about CN, and that I still like this game. I like being even a very very small part of the overall 'story'.

That's just mho. Might not be what others think. Just mho.

[Francesca]

I learned to be more cynical. Trust nobody, and you'll never be disappointed. I'm not quite at the "believe in nothing" stage though. It'll come.

[von Metternich]

Some things I expect others to learn:

Don't accept screenies

Don't leave your allies or else they write an article in CN Wiki called 'Coalition of Cowards'

Don't stay in peace mode for too long or else people start namecalling you

[Viktor Korimyr]

The punishments for those who fought on the Hegemony sign was rarely ever proportional to their involvement. This war was never about any sort of "justice" or principles of any kind. It was simply a war. That's it. It couldn't be about justice, or else several of those Karma alliances, such as Sparta, MHA, Gremlins, TOP, and FOK, and others either formerly in the Continuum or allied to it, such as the Superfriends, would have had to answer for what they did while benefiting from the Pax Pacifica.

Can't speak for the coalition of alliances that called themselves "Karma", but karma is not the same thing as justice. Karma is the turning of the Wheel. Whether they were "punished" for the "crimes" they committed as allies of the NPO and as members of the Continuum, they broke ranks and scattered-- and now, they will never stand shoulder to shoulder again. The NPO is no longer the most powerful alliance on the face of Bob, and they have lost many of their allies; everyone who has fought in this war, Karma and Hegemony alike, has been bloodied in the fighting and whole nations have been swallowed up by the battlefields. And already, schisms are forming between the former allies on both sides of the war.

The Wheel has turned. The old order has been broken, and a new order is forming from the rubble. Is that not what we were fighting for?

Now, it only remains to be seen what the shape of this new order shall be. Most of the players will remain the same, but the one thing that I am certain of is that the game will be different. Players have shifted sides, and the powers behind them have decided that we will be playing by a new set of rules. Those rules may not be fair, they may not be just, but they will be different. And when the tyrants of the new order grow complacent, they will find that they too have old enemies with old scores to settle.

Now that the Wheel has started turning, there's no force in the world that can force it stop. It will continue turning until it wears itself down and finds a new resting place.

That's karma. And that's really all we can ask for.

Personally i learned a lot about my own alliance. Firstly, that i was not... erm fully aware of everything that it was doing over the last year or two. Some of this was not very good. Secondly that the alliance was far stronger than i anticipated, i was concerned, like others were, that we had an entire generation who had never known defeat, but they stuck together admirably.

You gentlemen fought a Hell of a war, and you have every right to be proud of it. As for the prior conduct of your alliance... I don't know much about that, and I care less. I fought because you and your friends declared war against me and mine. Judging by the war you fought and your conduct in defeat, your alliance is going to be just fine.

I also learned that the cliché 'power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely', appears to be true in CN. A stern talking to may have been required, bankruptcy is another thing entirely. And most alliances will act like bullies as soon as they get the means.

Half of the nations that make up Karma, or are even sympathetic to us, are complaining that the terms of your surrender were too lenient. The New Pacific Order's finances and organization are legendary and the reparations you are paying are nothing more than a temporary obstacle in your reconstruction. When you are finished with the terms of your surrender, you will still be among the most powerful alliances on the planet-- and you will have regained much of your political and military power shortly thereafter. Neither the damage you suffered in the war or the terms of your surrender are the worst losses you've suffered by far; the worst loss has been the disintegration of your alliances, and that occurred at the very start of the war.

I don't know who you think is bullying you, but I assure you that it could be far worse.

[Gn0xious Jr]

Don't count on anything changing, slowly, but surely, we will see power centralize and attitudes change to the point of abuse of the common folk. Then we're back to where we were before, and this war will have been for naught.

I'm not naive enough to think that things have changed for good. If anything, the struggle for a new centralized power will be interesting enough, something Planet Bob has been lacking since I founded my nation. Regardless of who is in the power spot, if/when they start to abuse their power, the "common folk" will have to rise again to knock them down a peg.

I don't see how this war will have been for naught, when we'll hopefully get 6-12 months of "freedom" from the former central power. That in itself should count for something, and we should use that time wisely.

[Steelrat]

There won´t be any bigger war without what you call watertight CB for about +6months. There is a very fragile balance of power in CN right now and no major force will risk to break it to be found at the wrong end of the food chain.

In the next months the more powerhungry ones will test the water again and again until they think the risk of being annihilated by an unforseeable force is minimized. The question then will be, did they hit the right spot and time and did they estimate correct.

The point is, after this karma war no major force ever can be even sure it plays out as they think. There will be for a long time this last uncertaincy of running into something similar like Karma again. This uncertaincy and the old bounds scattered we will see a multipolar world for quite a long time. This means everybody will walk with socks on the floor to make as less noise as possible or in other words, no one is going to piss off someone else for entertainment only.

[Prime minister Johns]

The big take home message I got is, Never trust an ally completely.

[Drostan]

The big take home message I got is, Never trust an ally completely.

I think this is wrong. You only have to think this way when you treat your allies poorly. Of course, you will never have many alliances you can completely trust. So I say, don't sign papers with anyone who you do not completely trust. I think that while most will have not learned this lesson, I truly believe that we have.

Rebel Virginia seems to be focusing a lot of his comments against Sparta which does not come as a shock to me considering our past run-ins. And I will not say that all he has said is wrong because that is not the case. It is true that Pacifica did not learn to stand as a despot without many hands helping to hold her up and if anything that was proven during this war. Sparta has to answer claims that we were conspirators against the NPO on the one hand, and then claims that we were merely opportunists who saw the NPO as a scapegoat on the other. Not surprisingly, I do not think that either of these extreme views hits the mark on how this war truly came to happen. But another thing that I have learned is that it is hard to convince people you were not who they think you were. In such a case, it is better to show them in the future that whoever they think you might have been, you are not. Whether they attribute that to change or to mistaken identity is immaterial.

As such, I know that no amount of arguing with RV will convince him that his judgments of Sparta are excessive, and so I will simply ask him to watch us in the future. Not only do I not mind you following the progress of Sparta, RV, I entreat you to be a watchdog for not only Sparta but the whole of this community as you seem to have a penchant for it. Keep us earnest. I know that many of us do indeed want to improve ourselves and so criticize by all means, but do not deny us the ability to change. For when you no longer believe that things can change for the better, they are sure to get worse. It is fine to be skeptical (it is a healthy approach) but wise to stop short of complete cynicism as without change this world is a hell.

The task before the community now is to show that we can change instead of merely telling. I shall leave that for time to tell.

[King Srqt]

You mean the TPF? Why would I respect them? All they did was stupidly sacrifice their alliance for someone who would never have done the same for them in return. Maybe next time they'll decide not to support those who griefted numerous individuals and alliances over a two year period.

Because they kept their word regardless of the circumstances or consequences, because they showed that they would fight to the end even if it was not a curbstomp tech raid, because they actually showed that a treaty with an Mhawk lead TPF is worth something, because they showed that they are true friends even if you think their treaty partners wouldn't have done the same.

That is very respectable.

Edited July 22, 2009 by KingSrqt

[Tromp]

Steelrat nailed it imho.

Quality post.

[Vol Navy]

RV was pretty much spot on with his first post in the thread. His followups were just as well placed.

It's strange how long the memory of everything that certain alliances have ever done is always fresh in the memory of many on the other side of this conflict yet the other alliances who lent both political and military support to those same actions are given a clean slate because they showed they'd ignore their treaties, betray their blocmates and help plan "defensive" wars behind the backs of those allies.