So... Now What?

[Vilien]

...Huh? That...What?

Don't worry, Im a bigger man than to insult someone over his reading comprehension skills.

Your ability to make arguments about unrelated topics is unparalleled. And, for your information, you are most certainly not the bigger man.

[kulomascovia]

There was a lesson to be learned?

The defeated party is bitter towards the victors. The victors felt some satisfaction in getting revenge. Did the war change anyone opinions? Based on what I read from the forums, I do not think so. Perhaps alliances will be careful in signing treaties in the future. Aside from that, I don't see what else planet bob has learned.

[TehChron]

Your ability to make arguments about unrelated topics is unparalleled. And, for your information, you are most certainly not the bigger man.

Considering I publicly stated my intent to call out intellectual dishonesty where I saw it, I have something of an obligation of honor to follow through with my word. Moreover, I wasn't making any off-topic arguments. I have no intention of derailing Ragashingo's thread.

What's more, once again, I will not bring up your reading comprehension capacities by pointing out that I did not say I was "the BIGGER man", merely "A bigger man" than insulting someone over aforementioned reading comprehension deficiencies.

We now return you to your original programming about the lessons I learned from the Karma War:

A lot of folk were only sticking around so long as to See the NPO fall. Im not really surprised by that, but I am disappointed that I won't be able to debate with them on the forums for the moment (As Im assuming the majority will return).

[kenny]

has anything changed? absolutly, we have embarked on a desructive path towards a morally rightous cyber nations were very few wars will be anything more then a coalition punishing some alliance for not acting in accordance witht he governing morality! I was excited about a multi polar world but now im worried that we are making cn worse, if anything the drama caused by all the apparent bad stuff from the WUT days was the best period in cn, regardless of what alliance your in because after all this is a game that is supposed to be fun and FUN IS DERIVED FROM THE DRAMA!

[Tygaland]

has anything changed? absolutly, we have embarked on a desructive path towards a morally rightous cyber nations were very few wars will be anything more then a coalition punishing some alliance for not acting in accordance witht he governing morality! I was excited about a multi polar world but now im worried that we are making cn worse, if anything the drama caused by all the apparent bad stuff from the WUT days was the best period in cn, regardless of what alliance your in because after all this is a game that is supposed to be fun and FUN IS DERIVED FROM THE DRAMA!

You talk of the past as though it is the future. Your alliance has led a coalition/bloc that punished alliances for not complying with their "morality" for quite some time. After this war, there is no defined coalition to do that. Not to say that that situation may not occur again in the future but, at the moment, it is not the case so I'm not sure what you are driving at here.

I don't see the post-Karma War climate in the Cyberverse being any less drama packed than it has been the past 2 years.

[Nedved I]

"A little rebellion now and then is a good thing."

Thomas Jefferson

[Prime minister Johns]

"A little rebellion now and then is a good thing."

Thomas Jefferson

Yes and he also said this which is equally true.

"It is unfortunate, that the efforts of mankind to recover the freedom of which they have been so long deprived, will be accompanied with violence, with errors, & even with crimes. But while we weep over the means, we must pray for the end." ~ Thomas Jefferson

Rebellion is a two edged sword that can often cause as much damage as it cures.

[zzzptm]

While I hope we see balance of power politics to keep hegemonies from forming, I'm not gonna hold my breath for that to happen.

The big strategic lesson: If your alliance is huge and behaves badly, people will start doing the math until their NS barely edges yours, then start canceling treaties. Shape up or get rolled. In Paradox game terms, we just saw a "badboy war" against NPO.

The rest of the lessons are tactical: get a huge warchest, get a MP, get a reliable uranium trade, get an SDI, get a WRC. Those who don't will be slaughtered by those who do.

[Matthew Conrad]

You talk of the past as though it is the future. Your alliance has led a coalition/bloc that punished alliances for not complying with their "morality" for quite some time. After this war, there is no defined coalition to do that. Not to say that that situation may not occur again in the future but, at the moment, it is not the case so I'm not sure what you are driving at here.

I don't see the post-Karma War climate in the Cyberverse being any less drama packed than it has been the past 2 years.

At least a lot of the drama is more out in the open rather than shared between the elite minority who have real access to backroom information. It makes the game more fun imo.

[TehChron]

At least a lot of the drama is more out in the open rather than shared between the elite minority who have real access to backroom information. It makes the game more fun imo.

So...Would you say the value of gumption has gone higher or lower in this atmosphere?

Considering good cajones were in short supply during Pax Pacifica, Im sure they would be considered highly valuable, but in the present scenario you've just described, it seems like balls would be considered more valuable since they'd actually be able to get stuff done.

[Nedved I]

Yes and he also said this which is equally true.

"It is unfortunate, that the efforts of mankind to recover the freedom of which they have been so long deprived, will be accompanied with violence, with errors, & even with crimes. But while we weep over the means, we must pray for the end." ~ Thomas Jefferson

Rebellion is a two edged sword that can often cause as much damage as it cures.

Rebellion is a vicious circle, NPO couldn't last forever neither can Karma. All that's needed is a group that believes Karma is as corrupt/ In the wrong as Karma thought of NPO. Wash, Rinse, Repeat....

[Taget]

From the last two wars the lesson everyone should've learned in little league. "It's not whether you win or lose but how you play the game."

[Tygaland]

Rebellion is a vicious circle, NPO couldn't last forever neither can Karma. All that's needed is a group that believes Karma is as corrupt/ In the wrong as Karma thought of NPO. Wash, Rinse, Repeat....

Karma will not and never intended to exist beyond this war so anyone rebelling against Karma in future will be fighting a ghost.

[Matthew Conrad]

So...Would you say the value of gumption has gone higher or lower in this atmosphere?

Considering good cajones were in short supply during Pax Pacifica, Im sure they would be considered highly valuable, but in the present scenario you've just described, it seems like balls would be considered more valuable since they'd actually be able to get stuff done.

Having gumption is a tricky formula. If you don't assert yourself and sovereignty enough, you'll probably end up getting bullied. If you are too out there, people will end up disliking you eventually and PR will turn against you.

I don't believe it's that having "bigger balls" is more valuable as is the ability to know how far you should go and when best to make a stand.

I like that people are more able to speak their mind without getting rolled but it's gotten a bit ridiculous how illogical some "arguments" and posts have become in attempts to discredit an alliance. I wouldn't say people have grown larger balls as it is more of a lot of people are much, much quicker to jump to petty insults now. That's why I actually enjoyed debating with some of the NPO posters after the radio silence who were actually making good, respectful arguments compared to those who were there just to throw in the same 2 cents 50 other people put in. Of course, with the good comes to bad so I suppose it was destined to become like this.

[Prime minister Johns]

Karma will not and never intended to exist beyond this war so anyone rebelling against Karma in future will be fighting a ghost.

Or will it? Karma was a secret treaty bloc from its conception so it is possible that it went back to being that.

Until overwhelming evidence to the contrary is presented there will always be some doubt as to whether or not it actually disbanded or just went back to the shadows.

[TehChron]

You gotta admit, Tyga;

You're both right on this one.

[Lord Philip]

What should have been learned is a simple two points;

1) When it's time for an alliance to change it should change.

That's not as easy as it might sound, often it may just be a question of leadership but more often it's a question of whether the alliance can recognise that and take the hard path. Most can't and so even when the need for change is screamingly obvious they simply ignore it because they don't wish to change. This is bad if it's the rank and file choose it, but much worse if the leadership do.

2) The duration of treaties, if you must have them, should be severely limited.

Treaties have typically become railway lines as built by lunatics, without regard for need, distance nor destination. The result is a landscape where every square foot is covered by layer upon layer of track leading in all directions, with a work crew on top figuring out how to lay more. Most of this is driven by ego, the desire to appear important, plus the small element of control folk believe it gives them, topped with a PR cherry. The PR cherry is the worse bit, getting everyone baaaing like sheep for this or that pointless announcement just confirms the stupidity of all involved.

cheers,

Edited July 24, 2009 by Lord Philip

[Delta1212]

Or will it? Karma was a secret treaty bloc from its conception so it is possible that it went back to being that.

Until overwhelming evidence to the contrary is presented there will always be some doubt as to whether or not it actually disbanded or just went back to the shadows.

I'm pretty sure you need a treaty and/or bloc to be a secret treaty bloc. You also need to be secret, and since everyone keeps telling me that they knew who would be on the Karma side for months before the war, it obviously wasn't that either.

So, with no secrets, treaty or bloc, how exactly was Karma a secret treaty bloc?

[Ragashingo]

What should have been learned is a simple two points;

1) When it's time for an alliance to change it should change.

That's not as easy as it might sound, often it may just be a question of leadership but more often it's a question of whether the alliance can recognise that and take the hard path. Most can't and so even when the need for change is screamingly obvious they simply ignore it because they don't wish to change. This is bad if it's the rank and file choose it, but much worse if the leadership do.

2) The duration of treaties, if you must have them, should be severely limited.

Treaties have typically become railway lines as built by lunatics, without regard for need, distance nor destination. The result is a landscape where every square foot is covered by layer upon layer of track leading in all directions, with a work crew on top figuring out how to lay more. Most of this is driven by ego, the desire to appear important, plus the small element of control folk believe it gives them, topped with a PR cherry. The PR cherry is the worse bit, getting everyone baaaing like sheep for this or that pointless announcement just confirms the stupidity of all involved.

cheers,

Best response so far! Good job.

[Tygaland]

Or will it? Karma was a secret treaty bloc from its conception so it is possible that it went back to being that.

Until overwhelming evidence to the contrary is presented there will always be some doubt as to whether or not it actually disbanded or just went back to the shadows.

No, it won't exist because there were a number of factions within that, once the war is over, will have no common ground on which to base a bloc or "secret society". I cannot prevent conspiracy theorist from theorising, however.

You gotta admit, Tyga;

You're both right on this one.

Not at all. The old "prove it doesn't exist!" is all his response was.

[Tygaland]

I'm pretty sure you need a treaty and/or bloc to be a secret treaty bloc. You also need to be secret, and since everyone keeps telling me that they knew who would be on the Karma side for months before the war, it obviously wasn't that either.

So, with no secrets, treaty or bloc, how exactly was Karma a secret treaty bloc?

Aha! But you would say that to protect the secret bloc!

[Cairna]

If we learned any of these as lessons as a community I don't think this game would be any fun for me anymore. Bring on the curbstomps, bring on the hegemon, and keep on making newbies cry.

[Matthew Conrad]

Aha! But you would say that to protect the secret bloc!

Tyga, why do you have to call us out on our sekrets?

[Nedved I]

Karma will not and never intended to exist beyond this war so anyone rebelling against Karma in future will be fighting a ghost.

If not Karma, Sparta or TOP. Its an inevitable cycle.

[Ragashingo]

If not Karma, Sparta or TOP. Its an inevitable cycle.

Actually, thats one thing that none of us really know yet. For nearly three years CN has been dominated by NPO style politics of aggression for the sole purpose of keeping themselves and a trusted few others at the top. They sought revenge against those who once defeated them, and then they slowly cycled through allies destroying those who they felt would no longer serve their interests.

But thats just one style of play. I highly believe that at least two others can easily exist in CN:

1. Multipolarity: We are currently moving towards this. Karma forces are returning to their own smaller less connected blocs and there is no bloc that is currently in charge. It's possible al these blocs could remain friendly or at least neutral to each other for some time to come. We might see a world with various small wars where one bloc moves to protect its interests while the other blocs do nothing as it does not concern them.

2. Benevolent Hegemony: It is possible that treaties between the currently disconnected blocs might end up creating a new hegemony, but one that is more interested in the common welfare of all CN players. This hegemony would attempt to suppress large alliance scale wars but would not use such tactics as never ending war and ZI lists to maintain their status. There would also be no ally churn as we've seen over the past few years. Honestly I don't believe this kind of arrangement could hold up for very long due to outside pressures, half a year at most, but it is possible.

Anyway, this brings me back to my original post. We are in new territory here and we cannot just assume what happened when one set of rulers dominated the game for a long period of time will happen when and if a different set gain control of the game.