The GMs Court

[Kevin Kingswell]

I don't think C-130 gunships should be classed as IG aircraft. Why you ask? Well can anyone remember the last time they read about 60 odd C-130 gunships flying into battle? No we neither. Unlike actual bombers which we launch in big waves at most you would use a few gunships per a battle now if someone threw a large number into battle then I could see a reason for complaint but a single C-130 or a couple of them should bring no problem.

[Centurius]

[quote name='Kevin Kingswell' date='23 April 2010 - 01:23 AM' timestamp='1271978612' post='2271260']
I don't think C-130 gunships should be classed as IG aircraft. Why you ask? Well can anyone remember the last time they read about 60 odd C-130 gunships flying into battle? No we neither. Unlike actual bombers which we launch in big waves at most you would use a few gunships per a battle now if someone threw a large number into battle then I could see a reason for complaint but a single C-130 or a couple of them should bring no problem.
[/quote]

We do not classify bombers as ig aircraft because they get used in large numbers, we classify them as such because they are used to take down targets and in essence kill people, the same counts for a C-130. So I stand by my point if it has wings and is used to kill people it's equal to IG Bomber/Aircraft

[Kevin Kingswell]

[quote name='Centurius' date='22 April 2010 - 06:28 PM' timestamp='1271978862' post='2271266']
We do not classify bombers as ig aircraft because they get used in large numbers, we classify them as such because they are used to take down targets and in essence kill people, the same counts for a C-130. So I stand by my point if it has wings and is used to kill people it's equal to IG Bomber/Aircraft
[/quote]

We don't? Oh my apologies I have always split my RP aircraft between fighters and bombers. So with this new revelation for me I have to agree with Centurius espically considering its easy for a single C-130 gunship to devestate a full armoured convoy.

[Subtleknifewielder]

[quote name='Kevin Kingswell' date='22 April 2010 - 04:35 PM' timestamp='1271979339' post='2271281']
We don't? Oh my apologies I have always split my RP aircraft between fighters and bombers. So with this new revelation for me I have to agree with Centurius espically considering its easy for a single C-130 gunship to devestate a full armoured convoy.
[/quote]
Sure, if it's designed to kill, it fits my definition of IG craft.

I think we went off on a tangent here...

[Kevin Kingswell]

[quote name='Subtleknifewielder' date='22 April 2010 - 07:30 PM' timestamp='1271982588' post='2271339']
Sure, if it's designed to kill, it fits my definition of IG craft.

I think we went off on a tangent here...
[/quote]

Just to put a funny point out here. That would mean a bi-plane with a pilot dropping hand held bombs would be classed as an IG craft .

[Subtleknifewielder]

[quote name='Kevin Kingswell' date='22 April 2010 - 05:33 PM' timestamp='1271982769' post='2271343']
Just to put a funny point out here. That would mean a bi-plane with a pilot dropping hand held bombs would be classed as an IG craft [img]http://forums.cybernations.net/public/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif[/img].
[/quote]
No, it wouldn't...unless the biplane had machine guns attatched to it like the old fighters.

Handheld bombs don't count, as they aren;t part of the design.

[Captain Enema]

You guys really like cluttering up this stuff with rules for the rules for the rules don't you?

[Subtleknifewielder]

[quote name='Tidy Bowl Man' date='22 April 2010 - 09:28 PM' timestamp='1271996867' post='2271648']
You guys really like cluttering up this stuff with rules for the rules for the rules don't you?
[/quote]
Yup.

On another note, I would say (and forgive me if this sounds cold-blooded) that anything kamikaze is more like a cruise missile than a bomber.

[iamthey]

[quote name='Tidy Bowl Man' date='23 April 2010 - 05:28 AM' timestamp='1271996867' post='2271648']
You guys really like cluttering up this stuff with rules for the rules for the rules don't you?
[/quote]

Amen. Why do we need to pigeon hole this further? If a ruling is really needed, then I would say the gunships (the AC130s) are in the IG count. I would say helicopters are not in the IG count. But beyond that why does it matter? No one fields 105 aircraft or generally even 50 in a single war post. A lot of times people are not even clear how many planes they are sending. So there is no real point in having a big argument about whether something falls within the parameters of some abstract obscure definition of what the IG total refers to. People are ultimately going to have an actual or unspecified airforce that is far more diverse and expansive than would be permitted under a stricter and more literal interpretation of the rule.

Edited April 23, 2010 by iamthey

[Fizzydog]

I really think we should put a limit on land.

Large nations like HAE, PRC, SUVB, Kingdom of Cochin and many African Countries take up way too much space. I'm not saying give the land to other current RPers, I'm saying create more protectorates. I mena, does HAE really need that much land? He isn't even the largest RP nation, he has about 1.1 billion people. 1.1 billion people do not need a continent to spread out on. Look at RL China and India. They may have huge populations, but they still aren't HUGE. Sure, it affects their economy, but if they owned half of Asia it would be wya too spread out.


Many of these countries make new RPers not join where they want. Say someone wanted to roleplay in, say, Chile or a small part of India. They would've probably read the rules and realized it sn't a protectorate, and thus they can't and shouldn't ask for it. (At least that is what happened to me.)


I just want to say, there should be a limit on the land. Owning a continent would be near impossible by a single government. So much land to cover and look after.

[Sarah Tintagyl]

[quote name='Fizzydog' date='24 April 2010 - 01:18 AM' timestamp='1272068312' post='2272496']
I really think we should put a limit on land.

Large nations like HAE, PRC, SUVB, Kingdom of Cochin and many African Countries take up way too much space. I'm not saying give the land to other current RPers, I'm saying create more protectorates. I mena, does HAE really need that much land? He isn't even the largest RP nation, he has about 1.1 billion people. 1.1 billion people do not need a continent to spread out on. Look at RL China and India. They may have huge populations, but they still aren't HUGE. Sure, it affects their economy, but if they owned half of Asia it would be wya too spread out.


Many of these countries make new RPers not join where they want. Say someone wanted to roleplay in, say, Chile or a small part of India. They would've probably read the rules and realized it sn't a protectorate, and thus they can't and shouldn't ask for it. (At least that is what happened to me.)


I just want to say, there should be a limit on the land. Owning a continent would be near impossible by a single government. So much land to cover and look after.
[/quote]

No...if you got the land, you get to keep the land. Either they break up on their own or someone breaks them up, that's how it works and honestly I truly believe many of those nations would give land away to new players if the players PM them for some land.

[iamthey]

I too am opposed to such a direct intervention in land affairs. Unreasonable expansion is always countered by the inevitable overstretch, public visibility, envy and subsequent weakness. Let things take their course, and let massive empires be resolved by the natural IC forces.

[Fizzydog]

What I mean is for the sake of new RPers. They read the guide and see that protectorates are what you ask for. They look and see Falkland Islands are not a protectorate. Now they are dissapointed.

You think they know they can ask for thta kind of land? Most likely not.

[iamthey]

[quote name='Fizzydog' date='24 April 2010 - 01:52 AM' timestamp='1272070330' post='2272517']
What I mean is for the sake of new RPers. They read the guide and see that protectorates are what you ask for. They look and see Falkland Islands are not a protectorate. Now they are dissapointed.

You think they know they can ask for thta kind of land? Most likely not.
[/quote]

I still think it should be at the discretion of the owner what the status of their land is. If shadow wants to hoard his continent and give no one else territory he may do so. If others wish to intervene they may also act. We could also always add a note to the instructions that empires are often willing to give land that is not a protectorate (thus alleviating the concern you raise). This seems like more of an issue with the directions and the information a new player acts on than an issue with the underlying rules governing land.

Edited April 24, 2010 by iamthey

[Fizzydog]

[quote name='iamthey' date='23 April 2010 - 07:55 PM' timestamp='1272070518' post='2272522']
I still think it should be at the discretion of the owner what the status of their land is. If shadow wants to hoard his continent and give no one else territory he may do so. If others wish to intervene they may also act. [b]We could always add a note to the instructions that empires are often willing to give land that is not a protectorate (thus alleviating the concern you raise).[/b][/quote]
Then that would be a rational idea. I suggest adding this, GMs n' Sargun.

[Karl Martin]

[quote name='Fizzydog' date='23 April 2010 - 06:18 PM' timestamp='1272068312' post='2272496']
I really think we should put a limit on land.

Large nations like HAE, PRC, SUVB, Kingdom of Cochin and many African Countries take up way too much space. I'm not saying give the land to other current RPers, I'm saying create more protectorates. I mena, does HAE really need that much land? He isn't even the largest RP nation, he has about 1.1 billion people. 1.1 billion people do not need a continent to spread out on. Look at RL China and India. They may have huge populations, but they still aren't HUGE. Sure, it affects their economy, but if they owned half of Asia it would be wya too spread out.


Many of these countries make new RPers not join where they want. Say someone wanted to roleplay in, say, Chile or a small part of India. They would've probably read the rules and realized it sn't a protectorate, and thus they can't and shouldn't ask for it. (At least that is what happened to me.)


I just want to say, there should be a limit on the land. Owning a continent would be near impossible by a single government. So much land to cover and look after.
[/quote]

The megastates are not a problem. The true problem is when [i]protectorates[/i] are treated as if they're sovereign territories, and the protectors act as if they can control everything within the protectorate and such.

I'm sure some people are wringling over how states that came from their protectorates do not follow their every dictates, or use OOC reasons to deny/war against others.

[iamthey]

[quote name='Karl Martin' date='24 April 2010 - 02:11 AM' timestamp='1272071487' post='2272554']
The megastates are not a problem. The true problem is when [i]protectorates[/i] are treated as if they're sovereign territories, and the protectors act as if they can control everything within the protectorate and such.

I'm sure some people are wringling over how states that came from their protectorates do not follow their every dictates, or use OOC reasons to deny/war against others.
[/quote]

A protectorate (in CNRP) basically is sovereign territory of another nation. They can control whatever they like within it, and they can make deals with any potential government that will arise within that nation (like land return agreements).

Edited April 24, 2010 by iamthey

[Markus Wilding]

[quote name='Karl Martin' date='23 April 2010 - 09:11 PM' timestamp='1272071487' post='2272554']
The megastates are not a problem. The true problem is when [i]protectorates[/i] are treated as if they're sovereign territories, and the protectors act as if they can control everything within the protectorate and such.

I'm sure some people are wringling over how states that came from their protectorates do not follow their every dictates, or use OOC reasons to deny/war against others.
[/quote]
That's because their forces are in the protectorate, thus they establish the laws and rebels don't return the area to anarchy (aka white space).

[Voodoo Nova]

Don't deal with IC actions by using OOC regulations. If someone can effectively RP the expansion of an empire to cover a continent, good job. If you can take down the empire, good job. Most people with large nations are fairly liberal with their territory and protectorates anyways.

[JerreyRough]

Hmm. This argument reminds me of the individualism-vs-collectivism debate. More control or less control? Usually in real world situations, the individualist views were more effective than the collectivist ideas.

In my opinion this is the same. Many large empires don't care that much if a small nation was a small piece of land, thus if a new player asks then they more than likely will get it. In some cases they won't, but the open atmosphere of CNRP allows people to still roleplay that specific culture anywhere in the world anyway.

[Executive Minister]

[quote name='Fizzydog' date='23 April 2010 - 08:18 PM' timestamp='1272068312' post='2272496']
I really think we should put a limit on land.

Large nations like HAE, PRC, SUVB, Kingdom of Cochin and many African Countries take up way too much space. I'm not saying give the land to other current RPers, I'm saying create more protectorates. I mena, does HAE really need that much land? He isn't even the largest RP nation, he has about 1.1 billion people. 1.1 billion people do not need a continent to spread out on. Look at RL China and India. They may have huge populations, but they still aren't HUGE. Sure, it affects their economy, but if they owned half of Asia it would be wya too spread out.


Many of these countries make new RPers not join where they want. Say someone wanted to roleplay in, say, Chile or a small part of India. They would've probably read the rules and realized it sn't a protectorate, and thus they can't and shouldn't ask for it. (At least that is what happened to me.)


I just want to say, there should be a limit on the land. Owning a continent would be near impossible by a single government. So much land to cover and look after.
[/quote]

Alright, lets put a limit on land. Since you propose this rule, you go first.

Oh wait, you stand to lose nothing if such a rule is put in place. No one will take anything you say seriously if you are not prepared to actual carry out what you propose. It makes you and your cause look petty.

[Gunther]

How would you regulate land parcels? Do you start with the largest nation in CNRP and then every other nation following that is a percentage of the largest IG nation? You'd have plenty of nations comprised of just tiny little Islands.

[SpacingOutMan]

[quote name='Gunther' date='24 April 2010 - 04:27 PM' timestamp='1272140844' post='2273305']
How would you regulate land parcels? Do you start with the largest nation in CNRP and then every other nation following that is a percentage of the largest IG nation? You'd have plenty of nations comprised of just tiny little Islands.
[/quote]

This has actually been done, technically. For instance, Sarah and Subtle merged and became a unified state. A better example would be the Nords, who had Nordland, but it was comprised of separate states.

[Triyun]

[IMG]http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a112/Triyun/Anti-Spy.jpg[/IMG]

Requesting a GM to roll counter intelligence operations against the HUMINT assets that were deployed against the USC in this thread:

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=53974&view=findpost&p=2273246

I have not posted an IC action till I know if their attempts to place agents in the USC were detected or not.

[SpacingOutMan]

[quote name='Triyun' date='25 April 2010 - 12:59 AM' timestamp='1272171563' post='2273924']
[IMG]http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a112/Triyun/Anti-Spy.jpg[/IMG]

Requesting a GM to roll counter intelligence operations against the HUMINT assets that were deployed against the USC in this thread:

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=53974&view=findpost&p=2273246

I have not posted an IC action till I know if their attempts to place agents in the USC were detected or not.
[/quote]

You kinda need your odds... not sure if that is 70 or 80%.