Imperial Decree - New Polar Order

[Epik High]

After reading your post I checked the CN Wiki regarding Polar's terms. My recollection was that the terms were lighter and that some alliances had given white peace and that we had paid full price for our tech (which we did because Gremlins and Polaris could benefit from the organized trade).

So it occurred to me when reading the wiki....

I am unable to find the official terms listed for the war.

This is interesting because it opens an avenue for revisionist history. I'm not accusing Polar of anything because I am certain that the majority of war entries do not list the terms; but we're all guilty of not keeping adequate records of the past; how can we ever hope to remember it and learn from it?

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=34051

Edit: Redundant post is redundant.

Edited July 6, 2009 by Epik High

[Scorponok]

It had to be said, and what better person to say than AlmightyGrub. Your post is full of pure emotion and I stand witness to the truth.

A truly brilliant, inspiring speech.

o7 Polaris

o7 the quest for justice and honour.

[Proxian Empire]

Well said Grub.

[RatchetH22]

Fantastic post. A very good read!

[shahenshah]

Today the final acts of the change that countless nations for are almost done and the new political landscape and world at large won't stand for anything harsh anymore, as you yourself admitted that no one has the power to do it anymore.

No one has the ability to carry out harsh terms in same form, but are more than willing to do it to some would say a similar degree. Product that is 'Harsh Reps' has been changed and re branded, it's utility however has grown.

Edited July 6, 2009 by shahenshah

[Lucas Perry]

This is another classic post coming from you, Grub.

It's good to see people stand up for their beliefs regardless of what others might think.

[JayOvfEnnay]

It was a good and well written post, however it was the first time in atleast a year of CN that I've had to turn on the Text2Speech and let my computer read the message to me. (I believe the last one was one of the debate threads for UJW during the time that it was still going)

Nevertheless, it was a very good post. Goodjob Grub.

Edited July 6, 2009 by JayOvfEnnay

[WarriorConcept]

No one has the ability to carry out harsh terms in same form, but are more than willing to do it to some would say a similar degree. Product that is 'Harsh Reps' has been changed and re branded, it's utility however has grown.

What? How in the world has the notion of giving harsh terms grown because of this war? Have you been deliberately ignoring ever surrender thread this war or what?

[Duncan King]

Who claims to be the voice of Karma? Who claims to handle all the public relations of Karma? I guess I missed those memos.

Didn't take me too long to find

One: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=54743

Two: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=54890

Three: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=55720

People from the "hegemony" who were asking questions about the war or terms would usually be directed to Liquid Mercury.

What specific elements of the NPO surrender terms were non-negotiable? And what does it mean for something to be non-negotiable? It is my opinion that nothing is truly non-negotiable. You start by discussing what is on the table and as talks open up you get to suggest that what is/is not on the table should change.

A term that is non negotiable is a term that cannot be changed by haggling or agreement. Your question implies that the surrendering alliance had any say in the terms at all, something that was not in fact the case for most of Echelon's terms, including the tech threshold. I haven't been partial to most of NPO's negotiations, but I do believe that the tech threshold term is the same there as well and that the total monetary quantity of reparations is growing in the inverse of the strength of the NPO. That said, I do have to admit that I could be wrong, I'm more familiar with Echelon's terms than the NPO's. But considering that similar parties are involved, I'm probably making a fair guestimation.

Edited July 6, 2009 by Duncan King

[WarriorConcept]

Didn't take me too long to find

One: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=54743

Two: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=54890

Three: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=55720

People from the "hegemony" who were asking questions about the war or terms would usually be directed to Liquid Mercury.

Liquid Mercury and Archon just helped organize the war fronts, and as they continuously stated throughout the war would only redirect you towards the alliances fighting your own if you were seeking peace terms. They couldn't tell anyone what peace terms to give at all, those messages were written with the consent of all that gave themselves the brand name of Karma and thus should be considered as a thread written by all of them, but only allowed to be posted by one person.

[Drostan]

Didn't take me too long to find

One: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=54743

Two: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=54890

Three: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=55720

People from the "hegemony" who were asking questions about the war or terms would usually be directed to Liquid Mercury.

A term that is non negotiable is a term that cannot be changed by haggling or agreement. Your question implies that the surrendering alliance had any say in the terms at all, something that was not in fact the case for most of Echelon's terms, including the tech threshold. I haven't been partial to most of NPO's negotiations, but I do believe that the tech threshold term is the same there as well and that the total monetary quantity of reparations is growing in the inverse of the strength of the NPO.

Ok, you seem to be confusing the fact that only one person can speak at once and so actually has to make an announcement with there being a 'leader' of Karma. They are worlds apart even if you pretend not to know the difference.

I believe I specifically addressed the separation for the concrete and finalized Echelon terms and the still speculative agreement of NPO's terms which have not been finalized or accepted. NPO's reps get larger the longer they refuse to accept terms and inflict damage on other alliances (that's what terms are for afterall). This seems to be reasonable. The longer you decide to fight and inflict damge... the more money you have to pay when you lose and have to pay reparations. Of course, all this remains speculative as there is no surrender agreement reached.

My overall point is to address yourself to the specific alliances negotiating terms because Karma today is what it has always been: the name given to one side of a global conflict. Nothing more and nothing less. Should an individual member of a so-called Karma alliance feel guilty for the terms offered to Echelon even if they were never at war with them: no. That would be absurd. Of course, that should not stop them for expressing displeasure with them. But as has been said many times, those fighting the war negotiate what is and is not appropriate.

[NoFish]

No, these are the first steps along that path, it is best correct these errors at an early stage.

I would rather not wait until people are EZIed and forums are taken over and dictators are forced on other alliances.

After all an ounce of prevention is better than a ton of cure.

A better world is our responsibility and we must ensure that the sins of the past regime are not allowed to be repeated with our silent consent.

Man, I didn't know it was even possible for someone to criticize us for things we didn't even know we were going to do yet! Hail Polaris, world police, and their admirable stopping of precrime!

[Groucho Marx]

Eh, the IRON surrender terms were criticized as harsh when mathematics not only proved that IRON could easily pay what RoK wanted, but they could do it within 3 months. Still, NPO, and others were outraged saying "You're just as bad as we were!".

The irony is quite pleasent. Their tears are deliciously sweet.

You have set the world back to a time we were long past, you have reduced this community to petty thuggery at the point of a gun, you have hitched the some-what guilty high on the fence by their jock strap whilst shaking the biggest bullies hands.

Damn it feels good to be a gangster.

[Fallen Fool]

After reading your post I checked the CN Wiki regarding Polar's terms. My recollection was that the terms were lighter and that some alliances had given white peace and that we had paid full price for our tech (which we did because Gremlins and Polaris could benefit from the organized trade).

So it occurred to me when reading the wiki....

I am unable to find the official terms listed for the war.

This is interesting because it opens an avenue for revisionist history. I'm not accusing Polar of anything because I am certain that the majority of war entries do not list the terms; but we're all guilty of not keeping adequate records of the past; how can we ever hope to remember it and learn from it?

Took me about 5 minutes to find the actual announcement

Of course that does not include the insanely stupid "secret" terms which no one likes to claim responsibility for.

[WarriorConcept]

Took me about 5 minutes to find the actual announcement

Of course that does not include the insanely stupid "secret" terms which no one likes to claim responsibility for.

I'd blame Random but

[Prime minister Johns]

Man, I didn't know it was even possible for someone to criticize us for things we didn't even know we were going to do yet! Hail Polaris, world police, and their admirable stopping of precrime!

No you have misinterpreted what I said, Perhaps I need to make myself clearer.

I am giving a gentle nudge and a word before it becomes an issue, and tell you about what might be so that it won't be.

The price of liberty is eternal vigilance after all.

Edited July 6, 2009 by Prime minister Johns

[HeinousOne]

I have three things to say.

1. About 90-95% of the alliances on the Hegemony got white peace. I didn't hear NpO or their buddies make any long threads about that - yet when 2 alliances get real surrender terms - which they arguable deserve, this is now a reason to cry about it?

Actually there were quite a few statements made by some of NpO's buddies about those previous alliances that got white peace. When attempting to revise history I suggest you wait a little while longer before attempting such. The real problem which people like yourself neglect to respond to, of which I believe you do so purposefully, is not about the terms themselves but the intentions behind them. Yes we all believe NPO should receive some heavy terms but it is the little caveat's that are placed within the terms that may only seem like a line or two of text but they drastically change the reality of how the terms are being handed down.

That is what the Emperor speaks of and that is what Many of us have been speaking about. That is why so many are agreeing with Grub.

I would go farther than this. I don't think it's a coincidence that NPO members have been referring to the possibility of a Karma civil war for the past week. And then, just a few days ago, we have NSO members sending out recruitment letters to neutral alliances. Do we perhaps have a few NPO sympathizers within the NSO, who were trying to drum up a convenient civil war on the NPO's behalf? And no sooner does it become clear that a civil war is not going to happen, then we have AlmightyGrub no less, entering the PR battle on the NPO's behalf. Is he truly acting on his own initiative, or could it be that even within the NpO there are still NPO sympathizers?

Oh my....I am not going to try and belittle you for this as everyone else did, just the opposite. I would like to quote your post again to show it as the peak of the evolutionary process in threads like these. I mean...someone taking a stand and saying how that despite the complete seperation from NPO they are still "entering the battle on NPO's behalf". I do not know how you do it but you are amazing Azhrarn, I hereby nominate you to take the chair that I once held proudly. Go kick Alterego out of it please.

Very few people really are bullies, and most of those who could be classified as such managed to piss off the powerstructure (see NoWedge).

NPO is not an alliance of bullies. NPO is an alliance with a culture and a level of power that lent themselves to bullying (or threat removal). The level of power is already gone, the only question is if the culture changed. Maybe, maybe not. The bigger question is what changes will be caused to the culture of their opponents by obliterating them. And, frankly, I think those changes will indeed be for the worse.

Plus, if NPO's opponents all scream about 'remove the threat!' then what will NPO scream when they hold the upper hand? The same mantra they used for the last 2 years, 'remove the threat!'. I doubt this war will have changed anything, but if ever there was a chance, it is gone up in the smoke of 'removing the NPO threat'. Besides, it hardly works anyway, as seen by the rise of MK after the WotC.

You have an amazingly clear view of the reality of things. When I say "things" I mean much more then just the political struggle in this world.

Thank you, Mussolandia. This is exactly the point I was attempting to make. I did not say that Frostbite was in bed with the NPO. Read my post again if that's the meaning you took from it. What I stated was that the NSO might have some NPO sympathizers among its ranks, and you've just confirmed that it does.

Who is supporting the NPO now, who supported Karma formerly? The people I see complaining abut the terms are precisely the people I would expect to see complaining.

And the terms are in fact looking towards the future. Leniency was tried in the past, and failed. Would you have us try a failed policy twice? To what end? Now harshness is being attempted.

These terms are NOT impossible. They are in fact much more lenient than terms which the NPO has imposed time and again. I would like just one person to explain to me why the NPO can hand out harsh terms for years but God forbid they ever be on the receiving end of harsh terms even one time. Is that some unwritten rule on Planet Bob of which I'm not aware?

Oh just keep on evolving Azhrarn, keep on evolving. Only problem is I dont see any opposing views of rationality coming out of Greenland Republic. Is this truly a good representation of how GR feels?

Ah, a witchhunt! Yes, there are indeed a number of symapthizers with the NPO's plight in my alliance. We do not hide from our pasts, we do not pretend we have not had a hand in shaping the world as it is today. Yet some of us have been persecuted by them too and yes, long before any in your camp even opened your mouths, we put our reputations on the line to stop them. We know the beast and we do not hide from her.

We just hold ourselves to higher standards than you do. We do not fear the Pacific. The NPO is defeated and broken. You shiver and quiver at the sight of a minimal chance of recovery. In the end, the NPO still haunts you and your own feeling of inferiority dicates the way you act. You are weak and cowardly.

Bravo Musso, Bravo. Some souls such as that Azhrarn are completely unable to comprehend that which you speak of. All he can see of your words is "NPO sympathizer".

Unfortunately, somebody has to fight the hard way in order to bring change. I respect him for his actions, but he's judging those that are left carrying this burden, seemingly forgetting that without all of this, there would have been no change to speak of.

Yes, fight hard, that is very admirable but the terms handed down afterward is not part of the fight. It is how the winners handle the power of being the winners. Those fighting NPO have either forgotten that or never understood that. If you are unable to understand that then all you are is products of the Hegemony.

What has Pacifica done to be treated so well, when they won't even accept their punishment?

As someone who felt their wrath for years, I feel your stance on letting Pacifica off so easily is wrong. They haven't changed at all. They need to pay, and maybe then they will change. I've still never received an apology from even the lowest of the low on the Pacifican heirarchy for over 2 years of EZI.

Anyway, I called this when Frostbite formed. I feel smart now.

Oh good lord, you and your propheteering. You too seem to be nothing but a product of the Hegemony. You run around with a very limited attitude of "You are either with us or against us". That is exactly the attitude of the Hegemony. Thus with such you only see black and white. Go ahead and feel smart though, I would not seek to take that positive feeling from you.

I'm not going to read the last 20 some odd pages of rightful praise and half hearted weak criticism, I will however say how impressed I have been over the last year with Polaris and its leadership and commend Grub on an excellent post.

This war started with so much promise and potential but has now turned in to a big steaming pile of crap.

All in due time, it is the Jedi way to be patient. There are those that have had their worldview ingrained into them by NPO more then they realize. Those I speak of are not those that raise their voice about what harsh terms bring about but those that would yell at the top of their lungs about anyone who would dare speak up against the terms as being "NPO sympathizers". You see, they are acting in ways in which they have seen in the past. They are not thinkers but are simply those that act upon learned habits. The problem is that they do not realize that they act upon habits that they learned from the previous winners of wars. They have not peace of mind to be able to write a new history, instead they resign themselves to simply relive history because they know not how to do anything else.

The rest of us will just have to be patient.

I called Frostbite inevitably sticking up for Pacifica, and in the aftermath of the war, allying with Pacifica, who will be looked at as going back to it's old roots.

We'll just have to wait and see where it goes.

Once again you are wrong, we are not sticking up for Pacifica. Just look at Tyga's posts. Your reading comprehension is not so good this time around Starfox. Perhaps because you are reading through a false lens. Or perhaps its just because you are still pissy about the argument you and Sponge had. I wasn't sure before but it seems to me he was spot on about you.

He has led NpO's revival really well...but shaping Bob and progressing an alliance are poles apart...

Which was my original point...making public statements will not change anything. If Grub wants to see what he has spoken of he must put his alliance in the front lines and be heading change not calling for change but getting the cogs in motion...until then as I said he can join the long line of complainers and moaners which has always and will always exist. The current political climate is not unique.

Nice to see an ally of ours making such a strong statement about the Emperor of our Closest Ally. You call Grub a complainer and a moaner because of what he said?

You damn Hegemonist attempting to decry anyone that dares speak up against that which you believe! You have become that which you hated. You have become a living embodiment of "Might makes Right".

[NoFish]

No you have misinterpreted what I said, Perhaps I need to make myself clearer.

I am giving a gentle nudge and a word before it becomes an issue, and tell you about what might be so that it won't be.

The price of liberty is eternal vigilance after all.

Bah. When you put it all reasonably like that it makes me feel silly

[sammykhalifa]

I might just be too cynical, but a lot of what we're reading now just seems to be more jockeying for position (moral high ground) in a post-war world.

[yinner]

o/ polaris

o/ our emperor

long may he reign!

[PrototyoeRuler]

Your perspective is clouded and your memory is selective, the hostility may have not been quite as public but you are massively oversimplifying the situation. There were numerous failed attempts by Karma to spark the war before it actually started.

The gem in my sig is even better. I'm sure it was an accident that you offered the protection of Citadel, Superfriends and CnG to Tempest in exchange for them giving you a ridiculous cb on Valhalla. That "cb" was invented by Pete MaCavoy, a guy who has done nothing but spy and infiltrate alliances including Tempest and ODN and was bitter at Valhalla because we sniffed him out. Oh yea, that happened months before the war. Yep, there was no aggressive plotting by Sparta at all. Sparta is and will continue to be the village idiot of Karma.

With an attitude like this, I begin to wonder why I didn't voice out my opinion in Umbrella to give you and yours harsh terms. You are nothing but a rat, and believe me your time will come again...soon enough.

[astronaut jones]

With an attitude like this, I begin to wonder why I didn't voice out my opinion in Umbrella to give you and yours harsh terms. You are nothing but a rat, and believe me your time will come again...soon enough.

Man, MAN.. I am so tempted right now.

But just know that you're more right than you realize.

[Cobalt]

Dear Tyga, /ooc/ your avatar is very cute. /ooc/ Also no one seems to also remember the white peaces during the time of Hegemony, Regards.

Some of us do, two in particular.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=32884

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=32885

and I also remember my anger when these came about:

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=32875

duality.

[WarriorConcept]

Some of us do, two in particular.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=32884

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=32885

and I also remember my anger when these came about:

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=32875

duality.

I really have no idea who Ordo Recolitus is, but I don't believe they were part of the hegemony at all, thus kinda rendering that point null.

Also TORN got very good terms and got out of the war very fast, the others didn't act so honorable and well, took/are taking a bigger beating.

[SonOfHoward]

I have seen the terms offered to Pacifica, they are pathetic and spiteful. I do not care about your maths, your thought process or your justifications for the terms, they are wrong to the very core. There is no conceivable justification that promotes the sense of community regulation contained in those terms. They are designed to fracture, humiliate and destroy, they are not punishment they are simply a kick to the head of a man lying bleeding in the gutter.

Forcing our opponents off their team or into disbandment would be much worse than having them spend 3 months or so paying reps. That good sir would be the definition of kicking a bleeding man lying in the gutter. Actually the former would be more like shooting him in the back of the head while laying bleeding in the gutter.

Edited July 6, 2009 by SonOfHoward