Imperial Decree - New Polar Order

[delendum]

I do have a bit of ambivalence regarding the anniversary that is being noted - not exactly the high point of my time here, and not exactly a high point for the alliance I spent years leading. Grub took over at a really bad time, and led Polaris through its darkest hours since the Great Patriotic War. Their resurgence as a world power is indeed a credit to his brilliant leadership. He is certainly the right man for the job, and he's taken Polaris to places that I likely would have been unable to. Those of you who are upset with his frank words regarding the recent Echelon terms need to remember that 11 months ago it was Polaris on the receiving end of terms like these. Grub has very wisely found the third way - a break with the cycle of retribution and betrayal that has fueled conflict for the past couple years.

Unfortunately, somebody has to fight the hard way in order to bring change. I respect him for his actions, but he's judging those that are left carrying this burden, seemingly forgetting that without all of this, there would have been no change to speak of.

[hizzy]

I do have a bit of ambivalence regarding the anniversary that is being noted - not exactly the high point of my time here, and not exactly a high point for the alliance I spent years leading. Grub took over at a really bad time, and led Polaris through its darkest hours since the Great Patriotic War. Their resurgence as a world power is indeed a credit to his brilliant leadership. He is certainly the right man for the job, and he's taken Polaris to places that I likely would have been unable to. Those of you who are upset with his frank words regarding the recent Echelon terms need to remember that 11 months ago it was Polaris on the receiving end of terms like these. Grub has very wisely found the third way - a break with the cycle of retribution and betrayal that has fueled conflict for the past couple years.

Shut up old man, you're just supposed to stir the pot and say !@#$ like "BRING IT", nobody expects, nor appreciates, any common sense or decency out of you, tbqh.

[Venom4Viper]

o/ NpO

o/ EMPEROR Grub

btw ppl all of you should already see the decline of fellow players from 30.000 to 27.000 cause of the karma war!!! while asking for huge amounts of reps ppl are sure to stop CN, why? they see no future in this game cause they're time spend playing was a complete waste and rebuilding is zero!! let's try to make our community stronger and stop this hatred among us!! When i started playing i didn't like NPO to tell you the truth i was saying that to everyone but after watching them during this war i came to one conclusion: stop this murder of fellow players and let them be! wars are always going to be fought but if it comes to deletions of nations then we have surely all FAILED!

i'm sure they learned they're lesson and will stay true from now on, but it is time for us to let them show this not force them to quit the game!

Edited July 6, 2009 by Venom4Viper

[iamthey]

Karma

Kar"ma\, n. [skr.] (Buddhism) One's acts considered as fixing one's lot in the future existence. (Theos.) The doctrine of fate as the inflexible result of cause and effect; the theory of inevitable consequence.

Cause and effect. The position of Karma was that once justice is satisfied, that Planet Bob, as a whole entity, will have the opportunity to determine how future issues would be resolved. The point in which Pacificas justice is realized, is not for Polar to determine. Not for Grub to determine. Not for Archon to determine. Nor Londo. Nor Drai, nor Heft, nor ES...I think you get the idea. The cords of fate are constantly woven. The only determinor of when Pacifcan justice has been reached, is Karma herself. Should those now acting as instruments of Karma, exceed that mandate of imposing justice on pacifca, then our fates will we pre-woven into future events. It is safe to say, with 100% honesty, that the vast majority of us, want this war concluded. We do not want to destroy Pacifica, and quite frankly her cries that we are enacting some secret agenda to destroy, are not helping the peace process.

Hmm... I have to take issue with this. While I can at least relate and understand delendum's pragmatic arguments (though I may disagree with them) this argument I think is just a way for people utilizing methods they normally wouldn't condone to make themselves feel better. You are correct when you say it is no up to us to determine what their peace terms are, however it is also not up to a metaphysical delusion belonging to a culture occupying much of asia (appologies if there are any Buddhist or Hindus); the decision and sole responsability for them rest upon the shoulders of those who crafted with them and those who are at war with them now. You can cite as many definitions as you like, and point to the name as much as you want; it doesn't change the overall metaphysical realities of planet bob or the considerations belonging to about half of the overall karma coalition. Some of us very much disagree or at the least are highly disappointed at how low this particular camp in karma has sunk. Perhaps they really believe this is what is needed to get rid of NPO, or this is what they had coming to them but so did pacifica. I don't like the fact that a coalition I am tied to is simply becoming a tool used to carry out the same garbage that put NPO where it is today, so regardless of whether it is in my control or not, or whether or not the name of the coalition spells out some particular mission I will complain and argue against policies I see bringing the community in the wrong direction. Despite your portrayal the element at war with NPO is not powerless to act, and things are not out of their hands; they can end this any time they like on reasonable terms and until they do they should expect to take criticism for it.

Edited July 6, 2009 by iamthey

[nerolocutus]

Well said indeed!

[Tygaland]

o/ NpO

o/ EMPEROR Grub

btw ppl all of you should already see the decline of fellow players from 30.000 to 27.000 cause of the karma war!!! while asking for huge amounts of reps ppl are sure to stop CN, why? they see no future in this game cause they're time spend playing was a complete waste and rebuilding is zero!! let's try to make our community stronger and stop this hatred among us!! When i started playing i didn't like NPO to tell you the truth i was saying that to everyone but after watching them during this war i came to one conclusion: stop this murder of fellow players and let them be! wars are always going to be fought but if it comes to deletions of nations then we have surely all FAILED!

i'm sure they learned they're lesson and will stay true from now on, but it is time for us to let them show this not force them to quit the game!

If harsh terms drove people from the Cyberverse then the number of nations on the planet would have plummeted years ago. You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.

[Fadeev]

I think the terms for NPO are fair and they deserve it fully. I delighted to read the stuff in OP and im more than happy with the developments in NpO, but this shouldnt argument in changing the attitude towards NPO.

Let them feel the same that did feel many alliances oppressed by them. Nobody will learn a lesson, if the lesson isnt learned correctly. So let NPO have they share. Dont let the Karma war be just statistics, it should have a outcome with a dot at the end.

[Francesca]

removed.

Edited July 6, 2009 by Francesca

[skrewer]

I am honored to call you allies and friends NpO, great great post Grub!

[Drostan]

I can feel my community being saved already.

Yeah, I don't think Planet Bob ever tires of being 'saved'. I can't believe I agree with Schattenman on something. Truly, there has been much change from a year ago.

It is naive to believe that NPO will remain isolated for very long following the conclusion of this war and it is equally naive to believe that had NPO negotiated (reduced some numbers) and accepted the terms that they would have been destroyed in any way. It is also naive to believe that NPO will not seek revenge if it is able.

It seems to me that we must either accept that Almighty Grub is an exceptionally naive individual or we must become alert to the possibility that he has other reasons for taking such a grandiose stance on the issue.

I did not like the terms offered to Echelon but I was not the one giving those terms. That is a fact about Karma that many seem to be missing. You call out Karma at large when really you mean to address specific alliances or at least you should mean to address them. Many Karma alliances are more or less done with this war. As George the Great mentioned there has been mercy shown in this war already. Generally, the longer you keep fighting instead of surrendering, the harsher the terms imposed on you are. But my point is not to justify the terms given to Echelon but rather to highlight the fact that NPO has been at war for quite some time and more or less spat in the face of negotiations. That is not something you can do with impunity and I lament that their leadership chose not to seek peace for their membership. I will not say that nobody wants to see NPO destroyed, but I know that my impressions from Sparta do not suggest that anyone among our membership wants to see that. I know that I don't. What I would like to see is NPO admit some fault and actively pursue negotiations again and accept that they can no longer call all of the shots. I honestly believe that Londo is one of the most fair people on this planet and as good a negotiator as could be hoped for. Most Karma alliances want to rebuild at this point. I do not believe that they wish for more war.

I fear now that while many in Karma continue to tire themselves fighting on the few fronts of this war that remain, there are others who assemble in shadows and plot to turn this situation to their advantage. Surely, this sort of 'decree' could have been more effectively delivered in person if the intent were truly to engender a forgiving and conciliatory spirit. I suspect that instead this is a rallying call that only poises us closer to the brink of yet another war.

You claim to speak for forgiveness and peace, yet all I hear is sabre rattling.

[White Chocolate]

War is a fair extension of diplomacy and so we use war to influence things as we see fit when necessary. War is a vital part of the game, as is diplomacy.

As long as the above opinion is viewed as fact by the vast majority of nations on Planet Bob, all other arguments about which alliance or group of alliances ethically hold the high ground and which do not are purely academic. As long as war is seen as greater to or even an equal with diplomacy, we live in a "might makes right" world. And in this world, the majority of alliances and individuals will make decisions based on strategic considerations. This IS logical. There is nothing else to "understand."

In terms of the overall quality of your post, however, I agree with the majority opinion. A very well written piece of propaganda.

[Electron Sponge]

Unfortunately, somebody has to fight the hard way in order to bring change. I respect him for his actions, but he's judging those that are left carrying this burden, seemingly forgetting that without all of this, there would have been no change to speak of.

Actually quite a few of those fighting aren't carrying the burden of change - the only change they wanted was a change in who was leading, not in the way business is done. I don't think this is true of MK, I think MK's motivations are good and I really do believe it when you say you're fighting for change. Some of the others who call themselves "Karma" however? They're the ones who haven't bothered washing Polar (and MK) blood off their hands, and are doing the same thing to former allies that they once did to us. That's what I'm talking about when I talk about a cycle of retribution and betrayal. There's another way, and I'd like to see people rise above this.

I didn't spend all those months in the resistance to see business as usual. The change I was fighting for, and what Vox Populi as a whole was fighting for, wasn't just a change in who gets to act like a vampire. What we were looking for was a change in the way we treated each other, and a breakup of consolidated power so no one could ever lord over others with exorbitant demands and capricious whims. At least the hegemony is broken, that's a plus. I look forward to the day when the modus operandi of the hegemony is also broken.

[Heracles the Great]

The OP made me chuckle - despite being a well written wall of text, it held little meaning as it was constructed from the sidelines and continues to pretend that Karma is a single entity, rather than addressing the individual alliances that make up "Karma" and taking issue with them on an individual level. Pointless posturing and mindless PR grabbing did not go unnoticed however. Good luck NpO

[mattski133]

I particularly scoffed at that section. I asked Grub to publicize Polar's shiny new Outlook on Life © and tell the world that those wars were over monnnnnths ago, but he wouldn't stick Polaris' neck out. It's easy now that Karma did the dirty work.

I find it somewhat disturbing that Polaris is all of the sudden speaking through a megaphone from behind the Karma trenches. I wonder if Polar would still be treatied to Pacifica if no one had done anything to help OV and VE.

It's a mystery. But I guess you have to try and divide Karma one way or another before your goals can be achieved.

Echelon...the alliances that made it clear to this Karma Coalition that they did not want to die for the NPO or support them after the war, were allowed to walk away with either white peace, or some kind of punitive reps that were more or less designed as a reminder that you should think about who you sign treaties with. Echelon declared war on all the alliances engaged with NPO and more or less decided to fight to the end.

I've seen little reason to believe they wouldn't do it again. I imagine that is where the terms come from.

NPO...I don't think the terms offered to them would fully repay the Karma they've collected. I'd rather see less money and tech and more destruction, as was their way of life.

[Tygaland]

Once any semblance of balance and proportionality with respect to alliances position with regards to the Continuum and/or how the alliances came into the war was discarded the terms being offered were always going to be all over the place. It resulted in light terms for alliances that deserved harsher terms, moderate terms for alliances that were deserving of white peace and now harsher terms for alliances like Echelon. No one complained much about alliances getting off lighter than expected but they are happy to scream from the roof tops when some harsh terms are handed down.

If there is no plan in place then stuff like this happens. Especially when the earlier terms offered and the manner they were handled meant keeping terms reflective of an alliance status with regards to the Continuum was impossible.

[Heracles the Great]

Once any semblance of balance and proportionality with respect to alliances position with regards to the Continuum and/or how the alliances came into the war was discarded the terms being offered were always going to be all over the place. It resulted in light terms for alliances that deserved harsher terms, moderate terms for alliances that were deserving of white peace and now harsher terms for alliances like Echelon. No one complained much about alliances getting off lighter than expected but they are happy to scream from the roof tops when some harsh terms are handed down.

If there is no plan in place then stuff like this happens. Especially when the earlier terms offered and the manner they were handled meant keeping terms reflective of an alliance status with regards to the Continuum was impossible.

I must beg to differ kind sir - though I agree with the fact that the lack of continuity and synergy amongst "Karma" is what led to the great disparity in terms.

[Paint Your Target]

Truly impressive speech, I simply havent been involved enough in the Karma war to know where I stand on it now, but you make a strong case, in Rhetoric alone.

PYT.

[Taget]

Grub

Throughout this war you've spoken with clarity and wisdom.

From the start of this war (since well before this war started almost all of us knew how it would end no matter who fired the first shot) I was hoping the justified moral outrage from how the last one ended would change how wars were conducted. On the whole this has been true. Many Karma alliances were especially helpful towards my own alliance in making sure we received fair and just terms. And I do thank them.

But don't let the end of the war undermine the work done in the beginning. This is not the "war to end all wars" but like the last a prelude to the next. With sides as well as winners and losers yet to be determined. Pay heed to the golden rule (treat others how you wish to be treated) so that it's parameters are ones everyone can be proud of.

[Anhur]

Well written and much respect, Grub!

[SmashBrother299]

Excellent post... I believe we should always be re-evaluating past actions to help us judge future actions.

[Prime minister Johns]

I wholly agree with this.

The time for mercy to the NPO is now, it could be the beginning of a new and better era for planet Bob if we want it.

o/ Grub

o/ Polaris

[zzzptm]

I think the Karma boys almost WANT revenge to dominate NPO's thinking for the forseeable future. Then it won't be focused on returning to power.

And though NPO may be isolated now, what happens when it signs a treaty after its war? Will it be attacked for so doing, to prevent it from building another hegemony? If so, what are the new rules for maintaining a balance of power in the world?

[Nizzle]

The OP made me chuckle - despite being a well written wall of text, it held little meaning as it was constructed from the sidelines and continues to pretend that Karma is a single entity, rather than addressing the individual alliances that make up "Karma" and taking issue with them on an individual level. Pointless posturing and mindless PR grabbing did not go unnoticed however. Good luck NpO

Wow. They've gotten to you too.

[Fadeev]

I think the Karma boys almost WANT revenge to dominate NPO's thinking for the forseeable future. Then it won't be focused on returning to power.

And though NPO may be isolated now, what happens when it signs a treaty after its war? Will it be attacked for so doing, to prevent it from building another hegemony? If so, what are the new rules for maintaining a balance of power in the world?

Its pointless to ask for rules, if the surrenderterms arent signed.

[Alterego]

Wow. They've gotten to you too.

You cant really blame him "the bigger the lie, the more it will be believed"