Imperial Decree - New Polar Order

[Starcraftmazter]

I have three things to say.

1. About 90-95% of the alliances on the Hegemony got white peace. I didn't hear NpO or their buddies make any long threads about that - yet when 2 alliances get real surrender terms - which they arguable deserve, this is now a reason to cry about it?

2. The terms are perfectly reasonable.

- Colour Changes

- Wonder decommissions

- Terms designed to be broken

- Forced Disbandment

- Eternal War

Just some of the horrific practises which core Hegemony alliances have done, which nobody on the Karma side has done or supports. This is proof that the Cyberverse has drastically changed, and that the era of harsh terms is over. Whether people like it or not, the terms given to NPO and Echelon are perfectly reasonable and fair.

3. I find it very hypocritical that NpO speaks about changing their attitudes to foreign affairs and approaching other alliances from "bad" to "good", all while being allied to alliances which conduct their diplomacy in the said "bad" ways still, especially alliances which are led by people who have done this so notoriously in the past. Electron Sponge for example was the very person who was responsible for so much dislike towards Polaris, and now Polaris claims to have changed and yet still supports him and his alliance? And it's not like ES has changed, and then there's Ivan Moldavi as well...I mean - come on? I don't know who you are trying to fool, but you do not have the moral high ground, being allied to those who bully other alliances and send recruitment messages to their members - and that there, is something which truly is despicable.

[Tulak Hord]

You have absolutely no idea what was going on. This leadup to both wars was virtually identical. The only difference is that you were on Sponge's side this time and you are buying the propaganda hook, line and sinker.

I am making no assumptions, I am stating facts. Sparta was in war planning talks as early as January and February and I didn't need GtG to tell me that. Claiming some noble defensive goal is ridiculous. You wanted NPO dead and made moves to make that goal a reality. If it wasn't OV it would have been something else, the actual cb was no more relevant than the cb in UJW.

Another gem for the collection.

Provide some logs of these all powerful talks you keep bringing up because I tire of reading your theories. Please, enlighten me.

All of our posts on the Continuum forums made our position very clear. Your leadership knows it, just like all of Q at the time did, yet the problems we raised kept happening...repeatedly. Get over your mistakes and move on. Perhaps another drink will help?

[iamthey]

wow heft

i got to about page 8 and was shaking my head.

before you attack Sparta, you should make sure your own house is in order.

the punishment NPO has many factors to consider.

what about the punishment of NSO for your recent recruiting methods?

just get your own house in order before condemning Sparta who isnt even considering reps, ect, ect.

His arguments concerning NPO's actions and subsequent rationalization for not trying to permanently hold them down has nothing to do with sparta. Once again same exact thing as before, just because he is associated with NSO doesn't naturally make the argument itself invalid. Thank you.

i for 1 believe this planet deserves the right to exist without the fear of NPOs tactics becoming a threat in the near future.

my what short memories we have.

If you didn't read his argument please do so before commenting on it. Your point here is largely answered by it.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...t&p=1669257

I have three things to say.

1. About 90-95% of the alliances on the Hegemony got white peace. I didn't hear NpO or their buddies make any long threads about that - yet when 2 alliances get real surrender terms - which they arguable deserve, this is now a reason to cry about it?

This argument really isn't valid; you are basically saying "We did the right thing MOST of the time." Why should we be happy that you you let most alliances go while only really trashing two of them. Obviously those of us who find harsh terms, more specifically terms that are impossible to reasonably pay off are going to find it acceptable whenever they are employed regardless of what the track record has been up to this point. Hence why NpO is complaining about this, they don't find the tactic just or acceptable.

2. The terms are perfectly reasonable.

- Colour Changes

- Wonder decommissions

- Terms designed to be broken

- Forced Disbandment

- Eternal War

Just some of the horrific practises which core Hegemony alliances have done, which nobody on the Karma side has done or supports. This is proof that the Cyberverse has drastically changed, and that the era of harsh terms is over. Whether people like it or not, the terms given to NPO and Echelon are perfectly reasonable and fair.

3. I find it very hypocritical that NpO speaks about changing their attitudes to foreign affairs and approaching other alliances from "bad" to "good", all while being allied to alliances which conduct their diplomacy in the said "bad" ways still, especially alliances which are led by people who have done this so notoriously in the past. Electron Sponge for example was the very person who was responsible for so much dislike towards Polaris, and now Polaris claims to have changed and yet still supports him and his alliance? And it's not like ES has changed, and then there's Ivan Moldavi as well...I mean - come on? I don't know who you are trying to fool, but you do not have the moral high ground, being allied to those who bully other alliances and send recruitment messages to their members - and that there, is something which truly is despicable.

Grub was fairly clear he didn't condone any of that and that he would never try to defend or justify what pacifica did; his point is even after all of what they did do; he still things what is being done now is an insult to what the war originally was suppose to set out to do. He was fairly consistent in the OP, perhaps I missed it but I don't see where you justify labeling him a hypocrite. Unless Polaris is doing exactly what karma is doing now and we don't know about it then he can't really be a hypocrite can he?

Edited July 6, 2009 by iamthey

[iamthey]

double post.

Edited July 6, 2009 by iamthey

[Bob Sanders]

No, this is where you are wrong.

See, we all knew NPO would find a reason to war against someone. Finally, because we all didn't want to see that happen again, we formed a plan that we would honor our defense treaties.

The lead up to this war was far less public than the UJW. You remember the thread in which Bilrow and 404 error were contradicting each other blatantly when both were in the WUT? You remember when 404 error showed evidence that proved that the nation on the brown team with no Alliance Affiliation was not, in fact, a GGA nation? You remember when they had those threads, going back and forth, with the UJP alliances on one side and the ~ alliances on the other? I don't recall too many of those threads leading up to the Karma war.

Simply put, this war was planned out to be a response to NPO agression. If NPO didn't attack, Karma would not have attacked. The UJW was going to happen, regardless if Genmay DOWed BOTS. GGA would have used their same CB against GOONS, and the rest would have piggy backed into the war anyway.

So you're wrong once again.

Again, the Karma war occured simply because NPO declared on an alliance who had allies who decided to honor their treaties. The UJW occured because of a mutual dislike and a gradual rise of tensions, culminating in both sides gaining a CB and it was simply a manner of time before one of them used their CB to start the war.

Your perspective is clouded and your memory is selective, the hostility may have not been quite as public but you are massively oversimplifying the situation. There were numerous failed attempts by Karma to spark the war before it actually started.

Another gem for the collection.

Provide some logs of these all powerful talks you keep bringing up because I tire of reading your theories. Please, enlighten me.

All of our posts on the Continuum forums made our position very clear. Your leadership knows it, just like all of Q at the time did, yet the problems we raised kept happening...repeatedly. Get over your mistakes and move on. Perhaps another drink will help?

The gem in my sig is even better. I'm sure it was an accident that you offered the protection of Citadel, Superfriends and CnG to Tempest in exchange for them giving you a ridiculous cb on Valhalla. That "cb" was invented by Pete MaCavoy, a guy who has done nothing but spy and infiltrate alliances including Tempest and ODN and was bitter at Valhalla because we sniffed him out. Oh yea, that happened months before the war. Yep, there was no aggressive plotting by Sparta at all. Sparta is and will continue to be the village idiot of Karma.

Edited July 6, 2009 by Bob Sanders

[Azhrarn]

3. I find it very hypocritical that NpO speaks about changing their attitudes to foreign affairs and approaching other alliances from "bad" to "good", all while being allied to alliances which conduct their diplomacy in the said "bad" ways still, especially alliances which are led by people who have done this so notoriously in the past. Electron Sponge for example was the very person who was responsible for so much dislike towards Polaris, and now Polaris claims to have changed and yet still supports him and his alliance? And it's not like ES has changed, and then there's Ivan Moldavi as well...I mean - come on? I don't know who you are trying to fool, but you do not have the moral high ground, being allied to those who bully other alliances and send recruitment messages to their members - and that there, is something which truly is despicable.

I would go farther than this. I don't think it's a coincidence that NPO members have been referring to the possibility of a Karma civil war for the past week. And then, just a few days ago, we have NSO members sending out recruitment letters to neutral alliances. Do we perhaps have a few NPO sympathizers within the NSO, who were trying to drum up a convenient civil war on the NPO's behalf? And no sooner does it become clear that a civil war is not going to happen, then we have AlmightyGrub no less, entering the PR battle on the NPO's behalf. Is he truly acting on his own initiative, or could it be that even within the NpO there are still NPO sympathizers?

[Stonewall14]

I agree 100%...o/ Frostbite o/ NpO.. The evil tyrants NPO have been replaced by the Athens/Sparta and cronies who do the same things and are just as bad...

[Timmmehhh]

I have three things to say.

1. About 90-95% of the alliances on the Hegemony got white peace. I didn't hear NpO or their buddies make any long threads about that - yet when 2 alliances get real surrender terms - which they arguable deserve, this is now a reason to cry about it?

2. The terms are perfectly reasonable.

- Colour Changes

- Wonder decommissions

- Terms designed to be broken

- Forced Disbandment

- Eternal War

Just some of the horrific practises which core Hegemony alliances have done, which nobody on the Karma side has done or supports. This is proof that the Cyberverse has drastically changed, and that the era of harsh terms is over. Whether people like it or not, the terms given to NPO and Echelon are perfectly reasonable and fair.

Good post, don't forget the decommission of factories and the forced removal of government members.

[NoFish]

I agree 100%...o/ Frostbite o/ NpO.. The evil tyrants NPO have been replaced by the Athens/Sparta and cronies who do the same things and are just as bad...

GOD is Athens/Sparta cronies now? Damnit, Xiphosis, what have you done?!

Good post, don't forget the decommission of factories and the forced removal of government members.

Oh! I just knew there was a "military" improvement we were forgetting to make people decom. Can we have a do-over?

Edited July 6, 2009 by NoFish

[Alterego]

At last the mainstream has spoken about what has been done in the name of Karma. Great post.

[R&R-Viking]

Hey, this thread is filled with the same people who have been crying for weeks, sweet.

[AlmightyGrub]

Did they? I don't remember that at all to be honest and hope someone from NAAC at the time could clarify. You could keep saying their impact of the war against them is irrelevant, but that still does not negate the intent, backing, and creation of terms with the full purpose of seeing the alliance and community be destroyed. If you look at the OP and then AG's other comment, he still disagrees against every single ruler's intent to have the NPO completely destroyed, disbanded, and anything of that nature which further solidifies my point as even comments like those are hated by him.

WC

The NAAC reached a decision to disban well before that war was over. I eventually got the terms from Sponge as motivation for the last week or so of the war. Despite your assertions to the contrary, Sponge played no role at all in our decision. People have always misunderstood the NAAC and Polaris. I will clue you in a little, we didn't rate the ""NPO-lite", but we rated their bigger brother, the same one we are talking about now.

I have a capacity for patience, I also have a capacity to accept things and move on. After all that has happen to me in the life span of my nation, I can say I hold one grudge and I can say I hold that for a specific reason. Pretty much every single informed player in this game will know who I hate to the core and which alliance he belongs to. It certainly isn't Moo, Ivan, Sponge or anyone else from that era of the NAAC.

Part of the ongoing issue with this game is the inability for some people to get over it. You win some, you lose some, I have won at least as much as I have lost. I don't hold a grudge against alliances I fought in any war, in fact as evidenced I joined one of them and eventually took command. There is a need for people to act less butt hurt and more maturely regarding alliance loses. You don't have to forgive what happens, but it is not so healthy to make your life's mission the destruction of a rival.

I do not support the disbanding or destruction of any genuine alliance in this game. Things have happened in the past that don't sit well with me, there is no undoing what is done, but we can move forward intelligently.

[Tweety]

At last the mainstream has spoken about what has been done in the name of Karma. Great post.

It's as if Grub has taken every one of your self-righteously indignant posts and moulded them into some kind of superbly eloquent (this was obviously a product of the transformation), super post.

Congratulations on receiving the approval of HoT 2.0, Grub. Well deserved!

[Francesca]

I have a capacity for patience, I also have a capacity to accept things and move on. After all that has happen to me in the life span of my nation, I can say I hold one grudge and I can say I hold that for a specific reason. Pretty much every single informed player in this game will know who I hate to the core and which alliance he belongs to. It certainly isn't Moo, Ivan, Sponge or anyone else from that era of the NAAC.

I'm 90% sure I know who you are referring to. If I'm not mistaken, you said that you would "never speak to him again." But I really hope that I'm not wrong in who I think it is.

[Doitzel]

I would go farther than this. I don't think it's a coincidence that NPO members have been referring to the possibility of a Karma civil war for the past week. And then, just a few days ago, we have NSO members sending out recruitment letters to neutral alliances. Do we perhaps have a few NPO sympathizers within the NSO, who were trying to drum up a convenient civil war on the NPO's behalf? And no sooner does it become clear that a civil war is not going to happen, then we have AlmightyGrub no less, entering the PR battle on the NPO's behalf. Is he truly acting on his own initiative, or could it be that even within the NpO there are still NPO sympathizers?

Incredible. I can't find the words to respond to that little piece of idiocy.

How's this? Grub's right on every point. I guess you can count me as part of the Frostbite-NPO conspiracy to destroy Karma. There's just no other explanation, it's not possible that someone could have legitimate grievances! It's a Pacifican conspiracy!

[Francesca]

Incredible. I can't find the words to respond to that little piece of idiocy.

How's this? Grub's right on every point. I guess you can count me as part of the Frostbite-NPO conspiracy to destroy Karma. There's just no other explanation, it's not possible that someone could have legitimate grievances! It's a Pacifican conspiracy!

I found both your post, and the post of the guy you were quoting, absolutely hilarious.

[shahenshah]

Incredible. I can't find the words to respond to that little piece of idiocy.

How's this? Grub's right on every point. I guess you can count me as part of the Frostbite-NPO conspiracy to destroy Karma. There's just no other explanation, it's not possible that someone could have legitimate grievances! It's a Pacifican conspiracy!

Jedi and Sith on the same side? Karma WTH?! [Also Sigged!]

[Bob Janova]

Didn't we have a very long thread about NPO peace terms not long ago? I don't believe the situation has materially changed since then so I am not quite sure what you hope to achieve by starting another one. The same people are going to have the same opinions, and the situation will not change. The NPO shot themselves in the foot (again!) by going public as they did, in insulting the chief negotiator as they continue to do, and in not agreeing to terms which, while harsh, would allow them to be at peace and rebuilding within months. Your own impressive regrowth in Polaris shows that it can be done.

There were numerous failed attempts by Karma to spark the war before it actually started.

Because you'd know, being in Karma and all . In fact this is exactly the sort of paranoia that caused Hegemony alliances to start the war in the first place. Nobody in Karma was going to start a war.

I'm sure it was an accident that you offered the protection of Citadel, Superfriends and CnG to Tempest in exchange for them giving you a ridiculous cb on Valhalla.

This is so ridiculously distorted that it crosses the line into outright fabrication. I'll leave it to Sparta to decide if they want to spoil your day by bringing some facts into play, as I believe that incident has not been publically documented at this point.

I had thought that losing a war and being in a weak position might have taught you some humility, but apparently that is too much to hope for.

[AlmightyGrub]

I don't really care whether you support me or not. It's your prerogative. I just find it tedious that you have to remind us in every situation that you would do things differently, would do things better, if you were in the driver's seat. You are quick to find fault, where someone has gone too far, where someone pushed too hard. The fact of the matter is you haven't been in this situation and done better. You use repeated references to the lessons you've learned from the noCB war, but you've never actually done anything to demonstrate the fact of those lessons. MK has backed up their words with actions. STA has. Hell, even I can say I was in a similar situation to the one NPO was in that kicked off this war and resolved it far batter with my actions. But you? You just talk a lot. Not once have you put yourself in a position to back up anything you say.

You are content to sit on the sidelines of the political world and decry the imperfections of people that take action, but don't do anything yourself. You've taken no risks. Have, in fact, stood for absolutely nothing in your entire tenure as Emperor. Say what you will about Sponge, but the man actually did things. You can spout all the pretty rhetoric you want, but I haven't seen if and how much you would compromise when push came to shove and until you have something to back those words up, they are just all so much meaningless fluff.

I couldn't give less of a damn whether you stand with me, against me, or somewhere that has no spatial relation to me whatsoever, but for christ's sake, man, stand for something. All you have been doing for months is talking about what you wouldn't stand for and even now, your big stand is to point out the flaws you observe in the stances of others. Stand the $%&@ up, because it's freaking pitiful watching the Emperor of an alliance like Polaris playing for hails with "hardline" posts that pander to the crowd and mean $%&@ all. Playing at being cool is exactly what you are doing. Popularity is not worth respecting and that is the only thing you could possibly hope to garner by this hailfest generator of a topic.

So what would you like me to do exactly, declare war on you to show my resolve? Declare war on the NPO to show how much I care? Don't be pathetic. Would you like me to praise your actions and hail your mistakes to prove I stand for the side of righteous indignation, seems self-serving. You don't know what I stand for because you do not pay any attention, which doesn't really surprise me. You are just as irrelevant in my life as I am to you.

I am content to sit on the sidelines because that is where I belong in this war, it is not my agenda to destroy Pacifica, it is not my agenda to punish everyone but exclude those who managed to jump ship at the last minute and prop up your numbers. It is not my fight to fight and seeing how this is all we have apparently to discuss right now, it appears I don't have a horse in the main event doesn't it. The fact I do not support your unbridled hypocrisy does not mean I stand for nothing.

End the war, don't end the war, do whatever you like, but be aware there will be a fallout from this war, and if you weren't so blinkered by your own new found power you would objectively step back and look at it honestly. Popularity, I couldn't give a damn, I can get a o/ whenever I want in the confines of my own forums, I can probably get one in quite a few places most of the time. I do not need or seek the approval of people like you, maybe it irks you that I don't give a toss about your individual opinion. Maybe the core of the issue here is I don't support you but I am also not supporting the other side and that confuses your simple black and white world?

NPO's mistake, and Polaris before her, was to not read the winds of change, the changing attitudes, the changing resolve and the changing commitment and do anything meaningful about it. This war, regardless of who started it or why was always going to be in play by now. OV was just the last in a long line of pieces of cheese laid out for the rat.

You say I have stood for nothing, I would say you have no idea at all, but I would suggest you start reading the winds of change and do so fairly quickly. Your position is untenable and to continue with it will have its own rewards at a considerable, measurable cost to the community overall.

Punish them, no one is arguing with that, have a shot at me, I love people having a go, but also step back and consider your actions with a little less bravado.

[Micheal Malone]

While I may not hold such prose as you, to write a wall-of-text saying what people have been saying from the beginning, I will say one thing. To lump the entire Karma side into such a stereotypical view is narrow-sighted at best, and cynical at the least. There are many alliances at the beginning, and many now that agree that some terms are quite harsh, and there are many who will say otherwise.

As you have stated though, people learn from the past. If the past has anything to show us, it's that NPO if not given strong terms that will limit their actions, they will redouble their efforts and come at the throats of those who held them down at gunpoint. Perhaps it is the past, that is causing these "astronomical reps", but it is more-over the past that has shown the ruthlessness of the NPO, both in power and on the defeated end of a war.

If there is one thing that has been stated time and time again since the beginning of this war, Karma is not some large organized body of alliances that will be signing a massive pact binding them all together. It was a loose, very loose, war coalition. And just as Pacific and her allies have done time and time again, the victor chooses the spoils. Will it bite them in the end? It could. Will Pacific have the wake-up call that Polaris did? They could. Will people write walls-of-text stating the same thing that has been said over and over again to make them feel important? Definitely.

If there is one thing that you can count on in Cybernations, it's that.

[Andre27]

I agree with this.

The terms offered to Pacifica only highlight the insecurity and pettiness of those who offer them, who are afraid of what will happen several months down the line when NPO has rebuilt and will be seeking revenge for this No-CB war.

I applaud NPO for continuing to stay strong and united in the face of such ridiculous posturing, and my highest respect for TPF for standing by your friend until the end.

I look forward to the day when warfare ends with a handshake and a couple of laughs, but I'm afraid that such a day is not today.

o/ Polaris

o/ Pacifica

You and me both.

Up until now my opinion of Polaris had been "Meh.. they received a beat down, but did they actually learn from this?" Today i am pleasantly surprised.

From time to time each alliance needs a humbling, Polaris had theirs and so had the GGA. Such a humbling hurts and therefor it is good to see that those humbled learn from the experience.

I'm slowly warming up to Polaris again. Good work.

[Doitzel]

As you have stated though, people learn from the past. If the past has anything to show us, it's that NPO if not given strong terms that will limit their actions, they will redouble their efforts and come at the throats of those who held them down at gunpoint. Perhaps it is the past, that is causing these "astronomical reps", but it is more-over the past that has shown the ruthlessness of the NPO, both in power and on the defeated end of a war.

You mean like all those Karma-and-affiliated alliances that suffered horrible terms at NPO's hands didn't "come at the throats of those who held them down at gunpoint"? If you're afraid of the inevitable then you'd better prepare for it rather than wasting time and political capital on a fruitless venture that will cost you many supporters.

[Mussolandia]

Witness, citizens, the birth of the Third Position, as only the Emperor of the New Polar Order could articulate it.

This statement reflects the thoughts of a number of people. It is the codification of ideology.

I would go farther than this. I don't think it's a coincidence that NPO members have been referring to the possibility of a Karma civil war for the past week. And then, just a few days ago, we have NSO members sending out recruitment letters to neutral alliances. Do we perhaps have a few NPO sympathizers within the NSO, who were trying to drum up a convenient civil war on the NPO's behalf? And no sooner does it become clear that a civil war is not going to happen, then we have AlmightyGrub no less, entering the PR battle on the NPO's behalf. Is he truly acting on his own initiative, or could it be that even within the NpO there are still NPO sympathizers?

My, oh my, were we actually that clever! I think what you fail to grasp is that our so called sympathy for the NPO is nothing but consistence. The fact a number of us still consider ourselves Pacifican should be irrelevant to what is a statement of policy. Your attempt at annhilation, dressed up as revolution, is simply nothing we want to be associated with.

Edited July 6, 2009 by Mussolandia

[Micheal Malone]

You mean like all those Karma-and-affiliated alliances that suffered horrible terms at NPO's hands didn't "come at the throats of those who held them down at gunpoint"? If you're afraid of the inevitable then you'd better prepare for it rather than wasting time and political capital on a fruitless venture that will cost you many supporters.

There you go lumping everyone together again. And here I was only pointing at possible trains of thoughts or reasonings that some might have used or be using...

[enderland]

This war, regardless of who started it or why was always going to be in play by now. OV was just the last in a long line of pieces of cheese laid out for the rat.

The funny thing is that the rat was running ahead each time to place the next piece, all the while thinking itself so clever at having found a long string of cheese pieces.