An Open Letter to the NPO

[Lady Red]

Namely? What has the order apologized for and what has it not apologized for? I’ve yet to see the emperor saying he’s sorry to the former members of Vox Populi for what he’s done or personally apologizing to FAN for trying to kill of the entire alliance due to the alleged actions of a few people.

You want us to apologize to Vox? ...Really? Next time do me a favor and put that kind of statement at the end of your post. It makes it difficult to read anything else you write when you open up with 'You should apologize to an organization made up of traitors, liers and spies who formed with the sole purpose of starting a PR war on your alliance.' Next time just go straight for the FAN card. It will get you further. If it's a choice between the two, we like FAN more.

So when Trotsky’s Revenge dragged the rest of you headlong into a war you could not win, that was for the good of the NPO? This is very different from the pre-karma war boasts over the past few years stating ‘we are the one, we are the invincible etc etc.’

The only reason that there has been any change in your alliance is that they’re now the ones on the receiving end of a thrashing and they’re trying to make people forget they attacked during peace talks.

The logs have been posted. OV thought talks were still going. We thought they concluded. Debates on this topic span multiple threads and have been discussed by people far more verbose than you and I. To answer your question, yes. I believe TrotskysRevenge has always done what he thought was in the best interests of the New Pacific Order. I believe this war was an unavoidable outcome of being the number one alliance for a long time and he's doing the very best he can to guide us through it.

Hypocrisy is the act of expecting more from others than you'd be willing to give of yourself.

Such as?

Karma wants us dead for a long list of crimes that gets added to daily based on mood, menstrual cycle, and the intoxication of the person you're speaking with.

Again, do you have any examples? also that last part is largely due to the fact that many in Karma all want the NPO to be beaten but for very different reasons. That’s something which has been repeated over the forums for quite a long time now.

You're right. It has been repeated over the forums a long time now. There are threads and threads and threads of material where our crimes are listed, discussed, added too and dictated back to us as if we weren't there when it happened. Feel free to open any thread with twenty or more pages. That's usually what it's about. I'm merely suggesting that Karma would be less inclined to scrutinize their own histories. It's not as fun as scrutinizing the NPO apparently.

I no longer care what strengthens their resolve. I just want them to admit to their intent. The moral pretense is giving me a headache.

Well which one? all of the alliances which make up Karma for different reasons or just one of the more notable ones in this war? Ordo Verde for instance.

If you somehow gathered from my above that I care which alliance from Karma admits to this, you are mistaken. As far as I'm concerned, you're only as good as your bedfellows. If one of them admits it, and the others do not reject it, I'll consider it official policy.

[Cataduanes]

I find it amazing anyone could think that the destruction of each and every Pacifican was an actual goal for the Karma alliances

[Vladimir]

Conveniently missed that post did you Vlad?

And yes, I'm aware your claim is regarding 9 alliances, yet this link only provides 1. My points is, NPO has history of forcing disbandment in the past.

You'll note that Karma signatures are on there as well.

NV had a rather unique situation. At the time there was a rather public revelation about the racist character of the alliance, and it is this that was being disbanded, hence the clause "nor join any [White Supremacist]/[White Nationalist] themed alliances in the future." This is not something that the Order had engaged in directly before (and as far as I recall we didn't do anything in this case either, other than agree for our signature to be on a document our allies had put together). But there is a long history of white supremacist groups being attacked and removed by various alliances throughout the game for their practice (and often stated purpose) of recruiting to 'the cause'.

IAA, GOLD, LUE, NAAC, Golden Sabres to name a few.

We did not disband IAA, they chose to do so upon seeing potential terms.

GOLD itself blamed its disbandment on internal issues.

LUE stated that the game had become boring and they were 'off to the moon' instead.

As I understand it NAAC was intent on disbanding for their own reasons (with their former leadership stating explicitly that they were not disbanded). But for more details you'd have to talk to the NpO, since they were the ones in negotiations with them while we were were completely uninvolved.

Golden Sabres disbanded themselves when every nation left the AA over the course of a 13 day war with various opponents.

Just because an alliance has a history with us and eventually ceases to be does not meant that we disbanded them.

Asinine is stating that I refused to provide the names of alliances which you had forced to disband. Point to me the sentence where I stated such.

"There is no “peace term” harsher than forced disbandment, which is the fate that the NPO has brought to, how many, 9 different alliances in Planet Bob’s history?"

That's you stating that we disbanded 9 alliances. Then when I asked you called me a liar and suggested that it was all "semantics." You didn't yell 'I won't answer that!', you simply didn't answer and instead called me names and moved to dismiss the entire subject. It amounts to the same.

Asinine is imputing to me a motive which I never claimed "a moral war for a better world." Again, point to me the sentence where I stated such.

The moral fight is implied when you start going after the (imagined) history of the alliance you are fighting. Used to be that Karma's great moral crusade was shouted from the rooftops, these days it seems more of a dirty little secret better left forgotten. If only there was a dashing young fellow who had predicted this.

And asinine is stating that anything you say is presumed true until proven false.

Of course it's asinine. It was meant to be, that's the entire point of it. It was a sentence used by Generalissimo back in the 2006 Citrus War, and spawned a multitude of signature images, avatars and jokes, because it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Good times, but I think you may have missed my point.

As for your list of alliances that we have supposedly 'disbanded', I'm afraid to say it is complete nonsense. It follows only the logic of 'NPO was once at war with/looked slightly wrongly at X, X no longer exists, therefore NPO disbanded X.' It doesn't work that way. You don't take into consideration all alliances involved in the incidents, why the incident took place (and where you do you get it completely wrong), when the incident took place, who initiated the incident (in GW3 NAAC declared on us, for example), why the alliance disbanded, or when the alliance disbanded. It's all pretty similar to Stumpy above.

I will more than willingly admit to mistakes. I admit that in retrospect our policy on FAN was incorrect and failed to achieve the desired results, for example. I don't suggest that we are perfect. I will not admit, however, to things that we did not do purely in order to justify your blood-lust.

the sheer ludicrousness of her remarks becomes apparent - as does the fundamental validity of my assertion that when your AA is NPO, you don't get to criticize others for "poor sportsmanship."

This is the only ludicrous thing here. The idea that if you disagree with what X did, X therefore is inherently wrong in matters relating to what you are doing. You cannot remove ones 'right' to criticize just because you don't like them -- or if you can, I'd like to have a word with an awful lot of Karma alliances.

[Lady Red]

Propaganda? you must be mistaking me with someone else ..i am just a lurker and besides an ODN member creating propaganda on these boards is likely to get laughed out of town (or trolled, i know my place Lady Red), i am happy that you took the time to answer me and i respect your stand on having no regrets, apoligies have been made to specific parties (such as a spurious and very very late apology to GATO) yet i fail to see that apologetic stand carrying on in the conduct and posts of members such as yourself...it hardly strikes me as sincere if you catch my drift.

The fact is that in this war you guys lack the political capital to force peace on your terms, if the Order is desirous of peace then regret for some of the actions whom some in Karma are still pissed about (and yes that list is long) would be a great starting point. Simply becuase the Karma leaders refuse to negotiate does not mean it is impossible to do so...but bridges have to be built and the onus i am afraid is on the Order to do the building.

Peace has to be forged with hardwork but hey you guys want to be stubborn then so be it but expect no sympathy from the majority because i doubt it will be forthcoming.

I apologize for confusing you with someone else. Call it post traumatic stress syndrome. I see Karma operatives everywhere. >_>.

[ShinRa]

You want us to apologize to Vox? ...Really? Next time do me a favor and put that kind of statement at the end of your post. It makes it difficult to read anything else you write when you open up with 'You should apologize to an organization made up of traitors, liers and spies who formed with the sole purpose of starting a PR war on your alliance.' Next time just go straight for the FAN card. It will get you further. If it's a choice between the two, we like FAN more.

…

Ten posts and already a troll eh? that’s got to be a record. Also it’s ‘liars.’

Anyway, I’m sure you’d like FAN more as you beat the crap out of them for over a year after jumping them after they had disarmed and were under your protection, All for reasons I’ve never seen any actual solid evidence for. Nor has anyone I’ve spoken to.

You probably disliked Vox more as they could and did actually hurt you with your PR war. Your egos were the largest and most vulnerable target available and as such they attacked them, I really can’t see anything wrong with that as when compared with the actions of members flying the NPO flag it’s again the lesser of two evils.

In addition to this Vox Populi was directly created from your action, your warmongering, your arrogance and the war crimes that you committed. I’d think that you would like any alliance over one which was directly spawned from all of your sins and failings.

Finally, I wish to make one correction. I never said that I wanted to see the emperor apologizing to Vox Populi, I know that none of your hierarchy would ever do such a thing. I simply stated that I had not seen it, thus anything that should have been apologized for has not been apologized for.

The logs have been posted. OV thought talks were still going. We thought they concluded.

Wait,

you’re asking me to believe what’s been listed in logs. When you’re the NPO and you have a certain reputation involving those with other alliances and said logs accuracy and creditability.

Debates on this topic span multiple threads and have been discussed by people far more verbose than you and I. To answer your question, yes. I believe TrotskysRevenge has always done what he thought was in the best interests of the New Pacific Order. I believe this war was an unavoidable outcome of being the number one alliance for a long time and he's doing the very best he can to guide us through it.

Via backstabbing others, blackmail, creating a world order run by a dictatorship and several puppet alliances, yes. The problem is that a person’s mistakes and sins always come back to haunt him and in this case all those which TrotskysRevenge made have come back to haunt him in full force.

He pissed off a lot of people, as did the NPO, and the end result was a very large number of people wanting both he and those who followed him gone.

You're right. It has been repeated over the forums a long time now. There are threads and threads and threads of material where our crimes are listed, discussed, added too and dictated back to us as if we weren't there when it happened.

I’m afraid you shall have to excuse a few of them for that. Many NPO members have a rather slippery reputation which makes people believe that if it’s not directly stated to them in full force they shall try and push the blame onto others and act as if they were not there.

It just comes with the AA.

Feel free to open any thread with twenty or more pages. That's usually what it's about. I'm merely suggesting that Karma would be less inclined to scrutinize their own histories. It's not as fun as scrutinizing the NPO apparently.

Well, you’re more likely to be entertained by fiery NPO zealots frothing at the mouth and spouting endless hails along side lies and propaganda than those who will try and treat your argument with some level of response expected of a civilized human being.

By comparison you make them once more be the lesser of two evils, and by helping rid Bob of you people are more likely to be forgiving of previous crimes.

If you somehow gathered from my above that I care which alliance from Karma admits to this, you are mistaken. As far as I'm concerned, you're only as good as your bedfellows. If one of them admits it, and the others do not reject it, I'll consider it official policy.

Again, you’ve misread this. I’m not asking you to take verbal pot shots at Karma, I’m asking you to be more specific with your references and accusations. To give more direction and focus to your arguments.

[shahenshah]

It doesn't look like a sincere move towards peace from my point of view from the NPO.

If its 'reps' Karma seeked, they got more than what they asked for. So, I cannot help but think that its something more than reps and several months of tech farming that is being demanded.

[Cataduanes]

I apologize for confusing you with someone else. Call it post traumatic stress syndrome. I see Karma operatives everywhere. >_>.

Well tbh i am a Karma supporter and was part of an internal campaign to bring ODN into its fold so in those terms i am an operative, and yes i have grudges to satisfy but that does not include the Order being chased out of the game! far from it!!

As i said before if the Order is serious about wanting peace then it will need to swallow some pride and talk from a realisitc position, because as things stand more than a few of my peers would like nothing more than this apparent stubborness to continue...i cannot speak for Karma's leaders or all Karma members but it is true enough that more than a few in the ranks would love eternal war to be waged.

The Order was once a very pragmatic outfit (post GW1 is a great example) but i see little evidence of that pragmatism now.

[shahenshah]

That's a huge jump to make. You're still sanctioned, and have a decent amount of large nations untouched. Wanting to knock you down further is hardly tantamount to wanting to destroy NPO completely. That is absurd propaganda. You can either slowly fade into a less threatening position through a ridiculously long and boring war or jump out of hippy mode, take your lickings and begin to move on. It's completely up to you guys. You guys say it's better for NPO to take the former route, then so be it. I disagree, but I'm not in NPO, so it's not my decision. Stop trying to play the victim though. Nobody's buying it.

If nobody's buying it I don't understand why alot of you are trying so hard to show 'nobody's buying it'

[kevin32891]

I thought that you people would get tired of making NPO threads.

I guess not.

[Cataduanes]

I thought that you people would get tired of making NPO threads.

I guess not.

Hell no! you should be flattered that the Order is still the number one topic of discussion B)

[WcaesarD]

I thought that you people would get tired of making NPO threads.

I guess not.

Every day or so someone magically discovers that they've solved the answer to "life, the universe and Cyber Nations™" and then decides to share it with the world at large.

[the rebel]

To clear a little thing up:

You cannot force an alliance to disband, its the sole alliance's leadership decision to disband.

E/PZI: If a nation given that punishment rerolls, isnt stupid and doesnt tell a soul who s/he once was how can it possibly be inforced.

[Cortath]

Why doesn't NPO go to Karma and open the negotiations themselves? Why wait for Karma to do something which they do not want to do?

Been there, done that. No doubt we'll try again, with similar results.

To put this as politely as I can, Hell and No.

It's called “losing a war,” that is the sticking point. The underlying problem with these so-called negotiations is that the NPO still hasn’t admitted defeat. The majority of their high-strength nations have remained in peace mode for a majority of the war - engaged in siege warfare. Now supposedly the NPO has admitted defeat militarily, but let me ask you this: When you look at the propaganda effort that it’s carrying out, does the NPO seem like an alliance that has admitted defeat? No, of course not. They may not be fighting militarily (except at very low strength levels), but they are fighting politically. So all this talk about admitting defeat, like pretty much everything else they say, is pure BS.

This is laughable.

We have admitted defeat.

If you would like us to instruct our members to say certain phrases or words that will suit your concept of "seem[ing] like an alliance that has admitted defeat," tell me those words and phrases, and we will say them. It will be humiliating. It will rub our faces in it, and it will be utterly insincere, but sure, we'll do it. Words are words, but they can make people hate for you for a long time.

So let’s stop trying to woo them to the negotiating table when they obviously still want to fight. When the NPO is finally serious about admitting defeat and pursuing peace, we’ll know it because they’ll have stopped trying to dictate surrender terms to the victors. Until then they can either continue to be ground down or remain in peace mode until Planet Bob explodes.

It's called negotiating. I understand if you're not familiar with it.

I have yet to see the NPO make one single valid argument against accepting peace terms. Not one. There's nothing special about the NPO, other than the unbelievable amount of whining of which they've proven capable. The sheer volume of hypocritical propaganda that they’ve spewed forth has been so overwhelming it could choke a whale.

Read the posts in my sigs. Read it again. Then write a summary of the posts to make sure it got through. Then read it again for the heck of it. Then come back here.

Until now, the constant mantra we’ve heard from the NPO is that they’re superior in all things, in leadership, in government and organization, in diplomacy, war and economics, superior in all of these areas. But now, in response to the peace terms that Karma has offered, this same alliance is now arguing it’s overwhelming ineptness and utter incompetence, stating over and over again that it couldn’t possibly comply with the merciful and lenient terms which it’s been offered, when numerous other alliances have been able to comply with unbelievably unjust and harsher terms which the NPO has imposed upon them.

Our propaganda is incredibly effective. I am glad to see you still believe it. I shall inform Z'ha'dum and he shall award medals to the Media Corps.

It’s members have lost all morale; they won’t leave peace mode and fight – even under orders; their members don’t have warchests; their members couldn’t possibly organize themselves sufficiently to pay tech reparations on schedule, and on, and on, and on.

It’s all quite tiresome, and completely unbelievable. The only thing more tiresome have been the illogical and unjustified allegations of hypocrisy against the various Karma alliances. Prior to this conflict, Karma as an organization simply did not exist. It’s a loose coalition of numerous alliances, and a multitude of nation rulers, all having different histories, beliefs and agendas - but united in the single belief that the NPO had simply gone too far and had to be stopped for the sake of all other alliances on Planet Bob. And having never existed before, and therefore never having taken concerted action before, Karma cannot therefore be accused of hypocrisy on the basis of the past words or actions of any one single Karma alliance or leader. To attempt to do so is both illogical and absurd. It is propaganda, and nothing more.

So, let me follow you. This is your argument, "Karma did not exist, so any actions that individual alliances that were in Karma also did not exist." Interesting argument.

But wrong and foolish and stupid. But I understand why you make it. It would be exceedingly difficult for Karma to punish us for, ah well, let's use the example you gave regarding Norden Verein. It would be difficult for you to fault us for that, or punish us, since, although it was really Slayer's war, our signature is on that treaty, as well as the signatures of some of our opponents in the present conflict.

I understand your predicament, and I deeply sympathize. It is very difficult for Karma to come up with effective propaganda. You can't attack us for many of the things we did, for fear of antagonizing many of your allies who quite happily did them (or in fact, led the efforts) with us.

How many times has the NPO held the fate of demilitarized alliances in its hands, only to abuse that trust? There is no “peace term” harsher than forced disbandment, which is the fate that the NPO has brought to, how many, 9 different alliances in Planet Bob’s history? How many nation rulers has the NPO forced from Planet Bob? How many nation rulers has it sentenced to EZI or PZI?

I think Vladimir has effectively countered your rubbish about nine alliances. Name them, and stop avoiding Vladimir's posts.

The terms that have been offered to the NPO are merciful, and far, far better than they deserve. These merciful terms have been characterized by Vladimir as "ludicrous and impossible" when in fact they are actually less severe than the terms that the NPO itself has imposed upon many other alliances. To give just one example, the most glaring example that leaps to my eyes, the NPO is not being asked to decommission all military wonders and improvements. In my opinion this is a huge mistake, and I would wish that every nation ruler in every Karma alliance would petition their leaders to correct this if and when final terms are ever given to the NPO. To do otherwise is an insult to every alliance that has ever been destroyed by the NPO, and an insult to every alliance ruler that has ever been driven from Planet Bob altogether.

The reparations that have been requested in terms of cash and tech are reasonable given the size of the NPO, especially when viewed as percentages of alliance strength and not simply as total values. These terms clearly are not meant to destroy the NPO, merely weaken it, and prevent it from immediately becoming another threat to world peace.

Over and over again we have been told how special the NPO is, how wonderful their community is. Be glad then, that you are being offered the opportunity to focus upon your community, free from the burden to rule over all of Planet Bob, free from the need to constantly plot the destruction of, and wage war against, other alliances and other communities.

The terms are the highest ever given to anyone, and more than we have ever taken from anyone in history.

But we can pay the numerical reparations, but not with the other conditions in the terms. Before you respond regarding the economics, read the posts in my signature for a better understanding of the economics.

[Cortath]

To clear a little thing up:

You cannot force an alliance to disband, its the sole alliance's leadership decision to disband.

E/PZI: If a nation given that punishment rerolls, isnt stupid and doesnt tell a soul who s/he once was how can it possibly be inforced.

That's an excellent point regarding so called EZI. I will give you an example to illustrate the matter:

The New Pacific Order once had a member involved in our Technology Corps. At one point, he came into conflict with our elected Council and the Emperor. He demanded admin powers on our forums. The Emperor, wisely, refused. His response was to delete many important threads regarding the Technology Corps, threaten to "hack" our forums and also cursed at various members of our government.

We expelled him and ZIed him. I think that's a pretty reasonable punishment for the damage he caused.

His nation deleted.

Now, we twiddle our thumbs, doing our thing, and on along comes a new NPO member. He becomes very interested in history, specifically the history of the Technology Corps. He asks quite a bit about that member who caused all that damage. That raises our hackles a bit, and we check him out. Turns out his [ooc]IP[/ooc] was the same as the person who destroyed our forum. When confronted, he admitted it.

What did we do? Expelled him and ZIed him. Not only did he do these previous offenses, but he lied about his prior nations on his alliance application.

Would we call that "EZI"? I wouldn't. If the guy came back and came clean and didn't do it again, we wouldn't care. If the guy came back, and we didn't know about, we couldn't do anything.

EZI is what happens when people who piss of an alliance re-roll, and are either too stupid to hide their prior identity and then engage in the same behavior as before, or too stuborn to come clean and stop doing whatever they did before.

Edited July 3, 2009 by Cortath

[Sarai]

Please see the 2nd quote in my sig.

Yes and we know how wonderful and selected and full of rubbish your quotes are. As per most of Karma you boil everything down to one or two lines which you then rejig from what was originally a far longer and more well thought out post.

Your terms and yourself fail. They and you fail to make an impact on me by being stuffed with junk that is either made up or 'i am lame-packet' calculations. When presented with real math you run to <OOC> "check my sig"</ooc>. It's pathetic.

[Waterana]

If its 'reps' Karma seeked, they got more than what they asked for. So, I cannot help but think that its something more than reps and several months of tech farming that is being demanded.

Yep, the true intent of those 'terms' was rejection by us, so they could continue the war and blame us for it at the same time. Pretty clever I'll admit. The truth is slowly coming out of them now though. Karma want us gone, no ifs buts or maybes. They won't feel 'safe' until the NPO no longer exists so they're going to continue this war indefinitely in a bid to wear us down to the point of disbandment. The excuse for that they're already using of course is, as someone above who's name I can't remember has already stated, that apparently, we did it to others so it's justified in their eyes doing it to us.

Fear is a powerful thing. Though I find it funny Karma are so scared of us in our current state and think the NPO is magically going to rebuild and 'come get them'. It ain't gonna happen. Besides, we won't need to 'come get em'. Give it 6 to 12 months and Karma alliances will be busy killing each other. I intend to still be around then to cheer from the sidelines as each one falls.

Edited July 4, 2009 by Waterana

[Walt Schmidt]

You were offered reasonable terms

Perhaps the full terms could be posted here for an objective review?

[ShinRa]

Perhaps the full terms could be posted here for an objective review?

EDIT: Found it.

Edited July 4, 2009 by ShinRa

[Waterana]

For heavens sake, stop lying. It is getting old. The reasoning behind our 'terms' is so we'd reject them and Karma could keep the war going. Nothing more or less. All this other crap is a smoke screen to try to justify their sentence of eternal war. Give up the theatrics already and just admit it.

Edited July 4, 2009 by Waterana

[Stargazer Alchemist]

Anyone ever notice that when the little man is being oppressed and treated harshly, no one seems to care but when the Oppressors become the Oppressed it's the greatest tragedy in the world?

My personal favorite: "We have been told that until every member with GOLD in their AA is changed to NPO POW, The war will not be over."

[Lord of Destruction]

Perhaps the full terms could be posted here for an objective review?

The full terms are posted on your forums. I'm sure you could get clearance or what-say-you to post them in full here.

[ShinRa]

For heavens sake, stop lying. It is getting old. The reasoning behind our 'terms' is so we'd reject them and Karma could keep the war going. Nothing more or less. All this other crap is a smoke screen to try to justify their sentence of eternal war. Give up the theatrics already and just admit it.

Let me understand this, you accuse us of using a smokescreen, being hypocrites etc etc.

But you give no defense of your own actions, despite giving far worse terms to others, imposing viceroys, eternal war, demanding far more tech than the alliance can give you, and you do not make any excuses, make any counter argument nor any form of justification for what you have done.

And yet you call Karma liars when direct evidence of why we are doing fighting, and evidence of why Karma believes that such terms are acceptable in comparison with what you have done is placed in front of you.

So, you give no defense of the war crimes you have committed to others but we are the bad guys by your reasoning.

Edited July 4, 2009 by ShinRa

[Cataduanes]

So, you give no defense of the war crimes you have committed to others but we are the bad guys by your reasoning.

Yeah but it seems no Pacifican feels any shred of regret for any of the actions that have been committed by them since 2006, from what i can see it seems they perceive it is us (Karma and Karma sympathizers) who are the 'bad' guys . Seems to be a case that only Karma fighters are guilty of persuing 'grudges'

[Waterana]

Let me understand this, you accuse us of using a smokescreen, being hypocrites etc etc.

But you give no defense of your own actions, despite giving far worse terms to others, imposing viceroys, eternal war, demanding far more tech than the alliance can give you, and you do not make any excuses, make any counter argument nor any form of justification for what you have done.

And yet you call Karma liars when direct evidence of why we are doing fighting, and evidence of why Karma believes that such terms are acceptable in comparison with what you have done is placed in front of you.

So, you give no defense of the war crimes you have committed to others but we are the bad guys by your reasoning.

I say the terms are a lie. Karma wants us gone. Disbanded and gone. Those terms aren't a punishment, aren't revenge, aren't justification for anything. They are fake, false, a lie. The only outcome any of you will be satifsfed with is eternal war that will lead, you hope, to the NPO ceasing to exist and as many of it's members as possible leaving the game. Those terms are simply a PR stunt so Karma can claim 'well we tried, but they said no, so it's their fault the war is continuing'. As I said before, it would have really upset the Karma game plan if Moo had accepted them. You'd had to have made up another acceptable by the world at large excuse to keep the war going then, and I'm sure there were several backup plans ready just in case.

I've heard all the accusations, umpteen times, and other Pacificans have answered them over and over again for the last 3 months. I'm not going to feed you any more troll food. Long as Karma continues to peddle the 'NPO is to blame for the war continuing because they won't accept our 'reasonable (read impossible) terms', I'll continue to scream lies.

[NoFish]

For heavens sake, stop lying. It is getting old. The reasoning behind our 'terms' is so we'd reject them and Karma could keep the war going. Nothing more or less. All this other crap is a smoke screen to try to justify their sentence of eternal war. Give up the theatrics already and just admit it.

I can't speak for the other alliances involved, but if GOD did not want to give you terms we would not offer them. If we didn't want you to take them it would be a lot easier for me to convince Xiphosis that said offer should be revoked.

Edited July 4, 2009 by NoFish