An Open Letter to the NPO

[Trinite]

Alright.

40 (for defeat alert) + 20 (2 cms per day) x 3 (3 attackers) + 40 (2 aircraft attacks per day) x3 + 150 (1 nuke per day)

That is one day of minimal damage if turtling. So then you times that by 14 for 2 weeks of war and get 5180 approximate infra destroyed per day at minimum.

Need to take off 2 nukes for the 24 wait assuming there's no stagger. If there is a stagger, then you can add an extra nuke, but the stagger slot will lose 1 day it can attack. It's still around 5K infra. I'm just sayin'.

[Locke]

Regardless of what size the nation was before, it only takes 37 mil to get to 3k infra, a respectable level, and only 73 mil to make it to 4k, a level where a nation is large enough to clear bills and send out aid. Not as much money as it seems, is it?

Edit to avoid double:

Yeah, it is, I had to go look up the numbers.

Tell me, do these numbers include the large tech reparations also to be paid? Yes, they can convert it into cash, I believe, but which would be quicker? Don't the rep sending nations also have to be over 1000 tech? Getting into range would require tech dealing for some, which would tie up slots.

[youwish959]

Regardless of what size the nation was before, it only takes 37 mil to get to 3k infra, a respectable level, and only 73 mil to make it to 4k, a level where a nation is large enough to clear bills and send out aid. Not as much money as it seems, is it?

Edit to avoid double:

Yeah, it is, I had to go look up the numbers.

The problem is do you really expect a nation to have 73 million on them after this long of a war, and considering how little you make in peace mode?

Need to take off 2 nukes for the 24 wait assuming there's no stagger. If there is a stagger, then you can add an extra nuke, but the stagger slot will lose 1 day it can attack. It's still around 5K infra. I'm just sayin'.

That would bring it down to 5030 infra. Still a helluva lot.

[WcaesarD]

Do you really honestly think a 5k infra nation would have 200 million on them to rebuild?

Alright.

40 (for defeat alert) + 20 (2 cms per day) x 3 (3 attackers) + 40 (2 aircraft attacks per day) x3 + 150 (1 nuke per day)

That is one day of minimal damage if turtling. So then you times that by 14 for 2 weeks of war and get 5180 approximate infra destroyed per day at minimum.

This is assuming that every ground attack goes through with no losses and they win nothing back in counter attacks. If they're an active player, this wouldn't go exactly this way. And you have to assume that they stagger one day to avoid the day in the middle to avoid the nuke lag.

Tell me, do these numbers include the large tech reparations also to be paid? Yes, they can convert it into cash, I believe, but which would be quicker? Don't the rep sending nations also have to be over 1000 tech? Getting into range would require tech dealing for some, which would tie up slots.

If you buy back to 4k infra, you can have enough to start paying reps or helping others rebuild right then and there.

The problem is do you really expect a nation to have 73 million on them after this long of a war, and considering how little you make in peace mode?

That would bring it down to 5030 infra. Still a helluva lot.

If what the NPO has been telling us is true about cycling in and out of peace mode, it seems that there is very little reason for them to need to collect in Peace mode, if they cycle properly. I'm not saying that everyone is going to be able to get there right away, but for every five of them get there, then every 20 days you could get another five there if they simply send out aid and and pay bills.

Edited July 2, 2009 by WCaesarD

[youwish959]

This is assuming that every ground attack goes through with no losses and they win nothing back in counter attacks. If they're an active player, this wouldn't go exactly this way. And you have to assume that they stagger one day to avoid the day in the middle to avoid the nuke lag.

If what the NPO has been telling us is true about cycling in and out of peace mode, it seems that there is very little reason for them to need to collect in Peace mode, if they cycle properly. I'm not saying that everyone is going to be able to get there right away, but for every five of them get there, then every 20 days you could get another five there if they simply send out aid and and pay bills.

I assumed that they would be turtling and eating a defeat alert a day. And yes, you are correct about the nuke lag, but even then its still 5030 infra lost. It's not a significant amount of nations to pay reparations of that sort.

[WcaesarD]

I assumed that they would be turtling and eating a defeat alert a day. And yes, you are correct about the nuke lag, but even then its still 5030 infra lost. It's not a significant amount of nations to pay reparations of that sort.

I don't think you're getting the point of rebuying infra. It doesn't matter how low you finish the war in terms of infra, it matters how much cash you have on hand at the end. If you have the cash, you can get right back into banking quickly.

[youwish959]

I don't think you're getting the point of rebuying infra. It doesn't matter how low you finish the war in terms of infra, it matters how much cash you have on hand at the end. If you have the cash, you can get right back into banking quickly.

I do get the point, I just finished doing the same thing you suggest, to a smaller scale. What I'm saying is I don't believe they will have enough on hand after 2 weeks of war to do so.

[Locke]

This is assuming that every ground attack goes through with no losses and they win nothing back in counter attacks. If they're an active player, this wouldn't go exactly this way. And you have to assume that they stagger one day to avoid the day in the middle to avoid the nuke lag.

If you buy back to 4k infra, you can have enough to start paying reps or helping others rebuild right then and there.

If what the NPO has been telling us is true about cycling in and out of peace mode, it seems that there is very little reason for them to need to collect in Peace mode, if they cycle properly. I'm not saying that everyone is going to be able to get there right away, but for every five of them get there, then every 20 days you could get another five there if they simply send out aid and and pay bills.

If you're helping others, you'll have fewer slots to pay reps. Is that taken into account? Would the number of large nations not able to pay the reps make up for the upper nations only sending reps?

You HAVE to collect to get out of peace mode. You can't switch until you collect.

[WcaesarD]

If you're helping others, you'll have fewer slots to pay reps. Is that taken into account? Would the number of large nations not able to pay the reps make up for the upper nations only sending reps?

You HAVE to collect to get out of peace mode. You can't switch until you collect.

Ah, excuse my ignorance of peace mode, I've never been there

And as for fewer slots to pay reps, I thought Karma only wanted the top nations to pay the reps, and that wouldn't affect these nations, would it? Either way, NPO would surely be able to get some back up there at a good pace. And most of the rest have their wonders and improvements to speed them along.

[Yggdrazil]

For a moment, envision that you are a member of the NPO. Would you accept these terms? I do not believe anyone with any honesty would.

Let's say tomorrow the NPO accepts these terms, I would like to know which alliance gets what from the 300,000 tech and 7 billion, so I can determine who has the least honor among the thieves. Yes the terms are nothing more than thievery.

Taking something that is not yours makes you a thief. Many of you will wish to answer that the NPO took reps also, making them thieves as well. Granted, but in what jurisdiction can you steal back from a thief without being labeled a thief as well.

[Ogaden]

Hmm, doesn't MHA still hold a treaty in which part of that is not to flame each other? Way to take the high road.

Seriously, enough with the Spartan judgement. The ONLY thing that Sparta can judge NPO on is for the aggression on OV. Everything else you were right there with them so for you to be pushing the largest reps ever seen as being fair is equivalent to some extreme hypocrisy. You really should just allow the guy from FOK to do all the talking because they were not side by side with NPO for a long time through all the horrible things that these massive terms are meant to punish them for like you guys were.....

Something positive comes out of the thread after all. Who would have thought?

MHA cancelled their treaty with us. They took a few opportunities to twist the knife in the cancellation as well.

FOK was in the Continuum too, and only left on January 17th of 2009.

There is no shortage of hypocrisy in this war.

Edited July 2, 2009 by James Dahl

[Haflinger]

Pacifica claims to be standing for each other, yet in peace mode they sit. They "stand" with no wars and with no help for their brothers.

War Search Results

Your search for New Pacific Order returned 1,852 results.

You were saying?

[HeinousOne]

MHA cancelled their treaty with us. They took a few opportunities to twist the knife in the cancellation as well.

FOK was in the Continuum too, and only left on January 17th of 2009.

There is no shortage of hypocrisy in this war.

Thought it had a year long expiration date? They did not cancel the individual treaty unless they simply ignored that aspect.

[youwish959]

MHA didn't cancel the treaty, just ignored it.

[Locke]

Ah, excuse my ignorance of peace mode, I've never been there

And as for fewer slots to pay reps, I thought Karma only wanted the top nations to pay the reps, and that wouldn't affect these nations, would it? Either way, NPO would surely be able to get some back up there at a good pace. And most of the rest have their wonders and improvements to speed them along.

Neither have I, it's just basic military strategy.

Yes, those over 1000 tech. That's about 160 people. About 40 of them are already < 1000 infra. That number will increase with the two weeks of war. Also, some on the lower tech end of that could drop out of range. Suffice it to say, a lot of nations will need to build to become able to repay reps at the end of this. Depending on their warchests, this could take a while. Which is why I asked Bob Janova, who should have experience in the this arena, to give some estimates as to what their warchests were, are, and will be.

[Haflinger]

It's not really 90%. Even more so with the amount of money still around in NPO, which is something you admit yourself by offering more than we asked of you.

Out of 653 nations in the NPO...

60 (9.19%) are at 0.00 infra

238 (36.45%) are below 100.00 infra

509 (77.95%) are below 1000.00 infra (i.e. too low to buy nukes)

The highest infra of the bottom 90% nations is Novaya Zemlya at 3,850.00 infra.

He's exaggerating, but not by alot.

You keep repeating your own arguments, that isn't a good sign in a debate...

There are no debates on these forums. Everyone just keeps on repeating. This applies to both sides.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but doesn't NPO still hold multiple treaties, including membership in at least one bloc?

Not that many.

MADPs with TPF and GDA

Watling Street Compact (MDOAP)

MDPs with SSSW18, Legion, Invicta, Echelon (1V), RIA, MHA

Joint protectorate with the Polars of GOONS

Protectorate with Mafia

PIATs with GATO and MK

That's it.

That's not enough to start any kind of wars of oppression, especially when you consider the overall foreign policy of all the alliances in that list. Their ties to all the traditional aggressive alliances that they were allied to for a long time have been severed, except for TPF, who are in a state of complete rubble even if the treaty survives.

And as for fewer slots to pay reps, I thought Karma only wanted the top nations to pay the reps, and that wouldn't affect these nations, would it? Either way, NPO would surely be able to get some back up there at a good pace. And most of the rest have their wonders and improvements to speed them along.

No, only the tech reps are restricted in terms of who can send them (nations with 1K tech at the time the peace treaty is signed). The cash reps are allowed/expected to come from all NPO nations.

[Tromp]

Out of 653 nations in the NPO...

60 (9.19%) are at 0.00 infra

238 (36.45%) are below 100.00 infra

509 (77.95%) are below 1000.00 infra (i.e. too low to buy nukes)

The highest infra of the bottom 90% nations is Novaya Zemlya at 3,850.00 infra.

He's exaggerating, but not by alot.

His original statement was that 90% was at ZI or near ZI. As you can see yourself, this isn't the case. Also, the sizes of warchest are important, as well as the improvements and wonders they own.

There are no debates on these forums. Everyone just keeps on repeating. This applies to both sides.

Probably...

I won't go into that argument again, you can all see for yourself how that went.

[WcaesarD]

War Search Results

Your search for New Pacific Order returned 1,852 results.

You were saying?

No you would look back at the conversation around there and note I was speaking of the larger nations of the NPO, the ones who have sat in peace mode for more time than they fought.

[Ogaden]

Thought it had a year long expiration date? They did not cancel the individual treaty unless they simply ignored that aspect.

They just cancelled it and ignored whatever was written in the cancellation clause.

Who cares right? We're NPO, there was no outcry. There WAS a hailfest and 'congrats MHA' though.

[Haflinger]

They just cancelled it and ignored whatever was written in the cancellation clause.

Who cares right? We're NPO, there was no outcry. There WAS a hailfest and 'congrats MHA' though.

I think this thread exists only in your head. There hasn't been a public cancellation of the MHA-NPO treaty to the best of my knowledge.

[Ogaden]

Haflinger, you missed a few cancellations and some of your treaty types are incorrect.

We only have one MADP and that is with our brothers in arms, TPF. (TPF )

We have MDoAPs with our brothers in arms in Echelon, Invicta, NATO, Random Insanity Alliance, The Legion and United Purple Nations. (purple , Echelon , NATO )

We have MDPs with Global Democratic Alliance (), Grand Global Alliance, SSSW18 () and Valhalla

We have PIATs with GATO and MK.

That is the sum total of our treaties.

Edited July 2, 2009 by James Dahl

[Haflinger]

Haflinger, you missed a few cancellations and some of your treaty types are incorrect.

We only have one MADP and that is with our brothers in arms, TPF. (TPF )

We have MDoAPs with our brothers in arms in Echelon, Invicta, NATO, Random Insanity Alliance, The Legion and United Purple Nations. (purple , Echelon , NATO )

We have MDPs with Global Democratic Alliance, Grand Global Alliance, SSSW18 and Valhalla

We have PIATs with GATO and MK.

That is the sum total of our treaties.

You probably need to catch up on your alliance's treaty partners better.

The Ring Cycle was cancelled, but you still have a direct MADP, not MDP, to GDA, The Not So New Kids on the Block Pact. http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=54985 http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=26815

You have no direct treaty to NATO, Echelon or Valhalla, as they cancelled their MADPs in this thread: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=54884

Although 1V only contains you and Echelon now.

GGA also cancelled their treaty in that thread, reinstated it (as TPF did), and then cancelled it here, also leaving 1V: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=58727

[WcaesarD]

You probably need to catch up on your alliance's treaty partners better.

The Ring Cycle was cancelled, but you still have a direct MADP, not MDP, to GDA, The Not So New Kids on the Block Pact. http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=54985 http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=26815

You have no direct treaty to NATO, Echelon or Valhalla, as they cancelled their MADPs in this thread: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=54884

Although 1V only contains you and Echelon now.

GGA also cancelled their treaty in that thread, reinstated it (as TPF did), and then cancelled it here, also leaving 1V: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=58727

Regardless of the exact number and type treaties, I think my point is proven that the NPO is most certainly not diplomatically isolated or without allies.

[Haflinger]

Regardless of the exact number and type treaties, I think my point is proven that the NPO is most certainly not diplomatically isolated or without allies.

Way to ignore the entire point of my post.

That's not enough to start any kind of wars of oppression, especially when you consider the overall foreign policy of all the alliances in that list. Their ties to all the traditional aggressive alliances that they were allied to for a long time have been severed, except for TPF, who are in a state of complete rubble even if the treaty survives.

[Ogaden]

Echelon wasn't in Continuum, Echelon is in One Vision, which is an MDoAP bloc (well more of a bilateral alliance now)

NATO is in the Watling Street Compact, we had an MADP and an MDoAP with them. They just cancelled the MADP. NATO is allied with you in the same bloc

The New Kids on the Block pact is an MDP level pact, not MADP.

We still have a direct MDP with GGA.

Edited July 2, 2009 by James Dahl