An Open Letter to the NPO

[Tromp]

From all said and done, I am still baffled that somebody would argue what you are here. Seriously, you for real?

Who is suppose to buy what you are selling here? Why even argue this anymore, totally baffled,....

Common man, just drop this propaganda line, it is clear as sunshine in Sahara during mid day that you seek to achieve cripple NPO post war as for long as possible. You just do not reject 3 times the rep amount because in that scenario you do not get to destroy the last 5% of the NPO you thus far didn't manage to ZI, if that isn't true. What are we talking about here? Just stop man, we are far, far, beyond that point.

You want to achieve complete destruction of your enemy and achieve post war conditions which would stop him from ever regaining any noticeable power. It is a legitimate political goal in war and stop pretending you are not aiming for it when it is clear. Actually, at this point majority from your side of the fence isnt pretending this to be otherwise.

It is what it is, and it is resulted in NPO rejecting your terms which lead to this situation. Now the war continues and the world keeps spinning around.

I believe Vladimir started this argument with stating that 'Karma wants to drive all NPO players out of the game'. This is incorrect.

The terms may be harsh, but you can not say that you will never be in a position of power again. That's just a simple party line to put pressure on those on the other end of the table.

Stargazer Alchemist, we admitted defeat. We are far, far beyond that point as well. This has nothing to do with that, just rather with a point that if we are not to be ever allowed to live and breathe, then we rather be in war fighting as long as we have stones and rocks in our nations to throw at our enemies, then to be systematically picked apart by "peace terms".

Though Moo clearly stated you lost the war, if you want to go e-lawyering, this war hasnt ended yet...

[shahenshah]

You assume we demanded more reps than NPO made public in their thread.

Believe me, you are incorrect.

Yes you are right, I do not have the same information as you or anyone in NPO may have in that regards, but seeing already the high level of reps and conditions, I just found it bit funny they were actually 'lowered' in any sort of sense. I just find that line of argument moot. Someone else may however find more value in it.

Regardless, I just wish both sides can achieve peace in which both sides can continue to prosper and not being stalled due to the war. We'd like to see some Oranges go FokIng upwards crazy on Amazing race.

[Branimir]

I don't think people care. If people cared, they would do something about it. Looking around, the only ones arguing on your side are the ones stuck there for the duration.

I am not sure if you are original long term FAN member, so you would know this, as such let me teach you about something.

Nobody cared for FAN for a long, long time either. Only recently did that really changed, because it was a great propaganda rally point. And honestly, I do not believe many that seemed to be caring lately, really do because many of them for a long time didn't showed even the slightest interest.

Edited July 2, 2009 by Branimir

[Tromp]

Yes you are right, I do not have the same information as you or anyone in NPO may have in that regards, but seeing already the high level of reps and conditions, I just found it bit funny they were actually 'lowered' in any sort of sense. I just find that line of argument moot. Someone else may however find more value in it.

Regardless, I just wish both sides can achieve peace in which both sides can continue to prosper and not being stalled due to the war. We'd like to see some Oranges go FokIng upwards crazy on Amazing race.

I can't blame you for that. Seriously, it wasn't us that went public about the terms so Planet Bob could go speculate about them.

The amount of spin I have seen just makes me shake my head. It doesn't look like a sincere move towards peace from my point of view from the NPO.

Edited July 2, 2009 by Tromp

[Litha Riddle]

And as wonderful as that seems to NPO, it really doesn't work that way. The name Karma is just that, a name of a coalition that could just as easily have been called anything else. NPO can come on the forums and bluster about, saying that the reps are impossible all they want. I don't think people care. If people cared, they would do something about it. Looking around, the only ones arguing on your side are the ones stuck there for the duration.

You misunderstand me, I am not talking about the group called Karma, I am talking about actual karma that as an ex practicing buddhist is something I do still believe in. So yes, in this respect it will be revisited upon you.

As for you point about people not caring, well as someone who was around during FAN's glory days, I know they were not nice people, they were consumate war mongerers and people hated them. Fast forward and now they are seen differently, even by those same people that condemed their behaviour from the WUT days.

People do change, and opinions change along with it. It is a part of human nature and I doubt you or I can stop it.

Not to mention, should you only do something if there's a crowd with you? Or should you do what is right even though you may be standing alone? I personally would choose the latter, better to do whats right and stand alone than give in your principles to the mob.

[kenny]

sweet jesus you people need to get something new to talk about. Im sick of seeing 50 threads about the surrender terms, 50 more threads telling us to accept the terms, and another 50 polls about whether we will accept!

WE ARN"T DISBANDING so ColchestersKing's whole statement of quick better accept these crappy terms before you all somehow die, is silly at best.

seriously, whats the worst case scenario for us? we stay in peace mode while our soldiers shuffle in and out to inflict some small amount of damage. sure the war might last months, sure we will of course lose members, hardly a significant amount tho! most of the damage karma can do to us is already done. now we just wait to either accept reasonable peace terms or just do what fan did and wait it out,

in summary, im sick of hearing about all your opinions on what NPO should do as none really want us to do whats best for us as we are already doing it!

GET A NEW FREAKING THING TO TALK ABOUT! im in NPO and im TIRED of hearing about NPO. if everyone keeps looking at us you will all miss whats happening with the global posturing going on.

[Stargazer Alchemist]

re-posted below

Edited July 2, 2009 by Stargazer Alchemist

[Branimir]

I believe Vladimir started this argument with stating that 'Karma wants to drive all NPO players out of the game'. This is incorrect.The terms may be harsh, but you can not say that you will never be in a position of power again. That's just a simple party line to put pressure on those on the other end of the table.

You said it, not him.

No, Vlad is just highlighting your objective currently which at this point doesn't need to get repeated again. He is also explaining your rationalization for it--- we are inherent evil, all past wrongs are somehow our doing, so we deserve it.

That is what Vlad is saying, and for what you added, well, that is a likely side effect when you put a group of leaders into this position. Horrific terms or perpetual war.

Doesn't change you have a legitimate political goal, but if you want to achieve it then you will also have to come to terms of the fact that it will also have effect you mentioned for some. Now, how that interacts with your "morality" and propaganda, well, you judge it for yourself.

[WcaesarD]

You misunderstand me, I am not talking about the group called Karma, I am talking about actual karma that as an ex practicing buddhist is something I do still believe in. So yes, in this respect it will be revisited upon you.

As for you point about people not caring, well as someone who was around during FAN's glory days, I know they were not nice people, they were consumate war mongerers and people hated them. Fast forward and now they are seen differently, even by those same people that condemed their behaviour from the WUT days.

People do change, and opinions change along with it. It is a part of human nature and I doubt you or I can stop it.

Not to mention, should you only do something if there's a crowd with you? Or should you do what is right even though you may be standing alone? I personally would choose the latter, better to do whats right and stand alone than give in your principles to the mob.

I will never argue against someone standing for what they believe is right. I may disagree with the, and try to sway them with my argument, but I will respect someone standing for what they believe in. However, that being said, what are you standing for? Pacifica claims to be standing for each other, yet in peace mode they sit. They "stand" with no wars and with no help for their brothers. I understand the terms are tough, I get that you don't want to pay them, but how long do you think it will be before things get better?

And as for the idea of Karma, I don't think that what the alliances in the "Karma" bloc are anywhere near on the level of what NPO did in terms of atrocities.

[Azhrarn]

I am not sure if you are original long term FAN member, so you would know this, as such let me teach you abut something.

Nobody cared for FAN for a long, long time either. Only recently did that really changed, because it was a great propaganda rally point. And honestly, I do not believe many that seemed to be caring lately, really do because many of them for a long time didn't showed even the slightest interest.

Once again with the false assumptions, eh? Until very recently, it would not have been safe to admit any sympathy for FAN, now would it? You can't stifle debate at the point of a gun, and simultaneously argue that there were never any dissenting opinions to stifle, well, not unless you're the NPO.

[Branimir]

NPO has done that many a time with past wars. Why should the treatment of you be any different?

Because you said you would (famous Archon's words of no draconian surrender terms) and on that rally point of difference, hyped the masses against us painting us as evil and you as better.

Now, you have to live with your hypocrisy and the fact that, so much mentioned karma, does go around and around.

[Stargazer Alchemist]

You want to achieve complete destruction of your enemy and achieve post war conditions which would stop him from ever regaining any noticeable power. It is a legitimate political goal in war and stop pretending you are not aiming for it when it is clear. Actually, at this point majority from your side of the fence isnt pretending this to be otherwise.

And as for the idea of Karma, I don't think that what the alliances in the "Karma" bloc are anywhere near on the level of what NPO did in terms of atrocities.

Exactly. NPO surrender terms have not been forgiving towards those who lose the war, so why should the terms handed to you be given such a courtesy?

[Tromp]

You said it, not him.

Is that so? I don't think so:

The Order has not rejected reparations or surrender -- in fact we offered $8 billion and 300k tech, more than Karma is asking for and about 10 times the total reparations that we have received from dozens of wars (including 4 previous 'great wars') combined. But for Karma it is not about paying for the war, or their rebuilding, no, it is explicitly about 'preventing the NPO from ever being a threat again' -- that is to say, it is about preventing us from ever being able to rebuild (and let's face it, if they still see us as a threat as we stand at the moment, they're never going to be satisfied until every Pacifican is driven from the game).

[...]

No, Vlad is just highlighting your objective currently which at this point doesn't need to get repeated again. He is also explaining your rationalization for it--- we are inherent evil, all past wrongs are somehow our doing, so we deserve it.

That is what Vlad is saying, and for what you added, well, that is a likely side effect when you put a group of leaders into this position. Horrific terms or perpetual war.

Doesn't change you have a legitimate political goal, but if you want to achieve it then you will also have to come to terms of the fact that it will also have effect you mentioned for some. Now, how that interacts with your "morality" and propaganda, well, you judge it for yourself.

All I see is the both of us repeating our own arguments. It becomes a bit funny now, because it is clear we will never agree on that one.

[Branimir]

Once again with the false assumptions, eh? Until very recently, it would not have been safe to admit any sympathy for FAN, now would it?

Actually when originally the entire hype started with Vox and many others joined in, it still wasn't safe. You can argue that, but it isnt the complete truth. Many didnt cared until it didnt turned out to be a good propaganda tool for their cause.

And honestly, I do believe the long term FAN members are fully aware of that.

[Branimir]

Is that so? I don't think so:

Missed that, my wrong.

[Vladimir]

Is that so? I don't think so:

All I see is the both of us repeating our own arguments. It becomes a bit funny now, because it is clear we will never agree on that one.

Actually, the point I was making was that if Karma still see us as a threat in our current condition then they will always see us as a threat until no Pacifican exists. I was pointing out the absurdity of the 'NPO WILL KILL US ALL!' anti-peace propaganda.

[Litha Riddle]

I will never argue against someone standing for what they believe is right. I may disagree with the, and try to sway them with my argument, but I will respect someone standing for what they believe in. However, that being said, what are you standing for? Pacifica claims to be standing for each other, yet in peace mode they sit. They "stand" with no wars and with no help for their brothers. I understand the terms are tough, I get that you don't want to pay them, but how long do you think it will be before things get better?

And as for the idea of Karma, I don't think that what the alliances in the "Karma" bloc are anywhere near on the level of what NPO did in terms of atrocities.

Now see, the thing about karma is that it doesn't matter how big the action is. Whether you step on an ant or kill a person, to karma it is the same thing. The person dying will gain some positive karma, and those doing the killing will gain negative karma. Just the act of standing on an ant will be enough to give that creature a higher rebirth.

As for what I stand for? I stand for my family, that being Pacifica and my comrades therin. I stand for its survival and the right for my comrades to exist. Those that are in peacemode or either there to stand for our future or the ability to come back and fight some more. Like myself, I have managed to get to peacemode once again, and I will be coming back out. You see, when you have something greater than infra and tech to stand for, then it doesn't matter how long it takes, or how many times you have to swallow your desire to fight alongside your comrades so that you can give them a future.

You can laugh all you want and call me a coward and a traitor, but that wont deter me from doing what I feel is right for my comrades. You can knock down our infra, call us cowards and spit on us all you want, but we are united and we will not give in till everyone of our comrades is safe. And being safe is not having to let them be slaughtered for two or three weeks, just so the alliances of karma can get their jollies.

[Azhrarn]

Instead of addressing anyone in particular, I'll just make this one observation: The NPO claims that the terms given are unacceptable; yet they've given worse terms to many other alliances.

[Tromp]

Actually, the point I was making was that if Karma still see us as a threat in our current condition then they will always see us as a threat until no Pacifican exists. I was pointing out the absurdity of the 'NPO WILL KILL US ALL!' anti-peace propaganda.

No, actually. While it is a concern, we just want to get a head start over you, not completely remove you from this world.

It's a difference.

And if it truly was like that, we wouldn't have offered you any terms so you would actually get perpetual war.

So you're incorrect.

[Branimir]

No, actually. While it is a concern, we just want to get a head start over you, not completely remove you from this world.

So having 90% of NPO nations at ZI or near ZI, having NPO be willing to pay gazillion of reps, and having it diplomatically isolated isn't enough of a head start?

lol

And if it truly was like that, we wouldn't have offered you any terms so you would actually get perpetual war.

If you went ahead and clearly stated that you would keep us at perpetual war it really would look bad for you and everything you stated you stand for. Also perpetual war isnt a easy thing to keep going really with a ever changing world political realities.

Its better to achieve what perpetual war would, via "surrender treaty".

Edited July 2, 2009 by Branimir

[Azhrarn]

Actually when originally the entire hype started with Vox and many others joined in, it still wasn't safe. You can argue that, but it isnt the complete truth. Many didnt cared until it didnt turned out to be a good propaganda tool for their cause.

And honestly, I do believe the long term FAN members are fully aware of that.

Your past treatment of FAN isn't propaganda, it's inconvenient history. One need do nothing more than recite the cold, stark facts to indict you. And FAN is just one example among many.

But really, if one wishes to speak of propaganda, your own members, include Vladimir in this very thread, continually provide all the ammunition that's needed against you.

[WcaesarD]

I am not sure if you are original long term FAN member, so you would know this, as such let me teach you about something.

Nobody cared for FAN for a long, long time either. Only recently did that really changed, because it was a great propaganda rally point. And honestly, I do not believe many that seemed to be caring lately, really do because many of them for a long time didn't showed even the slightest interest.

Actually when originally the entire hype started with Vox and many others joined in, it still wasn't safe. You can argue that, but it isnt the complete truth. Many didnt cared until it didnt turned out to be a good propaganda tool for their cause.

And honestly, I do believe the long term FAN members are fully aware of that.

I am not a long term FAN member, but you can bet I will be. Yet the idea you teaching me about public opinion when you are one of those who would recieve a severely biased view due to the fact that nobody wanted NPO upset at them is laughable. I can honestly tell you that as soon as FAN was attacked due to the supposed violations there were many who voiced opposition, and they held on to those sentiments for a long time. Sure it was a nice rally point for Karma, but I don't remember seeing FAN ask for it.

[Litha Riddle]

Instead of addressing anyone in particular, I'll just make this one observation: The NPO claims that the terms given are unacceptable; yet they've given worse terms to many other alliances.

Those we gave terms to could have held out for better terms, but they did not. They accepted what they thought they could afford to handle. As will we, those terms given to us are beyond what we can afford, so thus we refuse them.

Simple really.

[Trinite]

Actually, the point I was making was that if Karma still see us as a threat in our current condition then they will always see us as a threat until no Pacifican exists. I was pointing out the absurdity of the 'NPO WILL KILL US ALL!' anti-peace propaganda.

That's a huge jump to make. You're still sanctioned, and have a decent amount of large nations untouched. Wanting to knock you down further is hardly tantamount to wanting to destroy NPO completely. That is absurd propaganda. You can either slowly fade into a less threatening position through a ridiculously long and boring war or jump out of hippy mode, take your lickings and begin to move on. It's completely up to you guys. You guys say it's better for NPO to take the former route, then so be it. I disagree, but I'm not in NPO, so it's not my decision. Stop trying to play the victim though. Nobody's buying it.

[Branimir]

Your past treatment of FAN isn't propaganda, it's inconvenient history.

No, of course FAN wasn't used as a propaganda tool, by many of those that for prolonged period of time kept FAN where it was with no worries.

Sure it was a nice rally point for Karma, but I don't remember seeing FAN ask for it.

No, I didn't said FAN asked for it, actually, FAN in many ways has nothing to do with it. They are just a tool in this regard.

But this is now being dragged off topic. OP was respectful enough, so I will be respectful enough of him and try to not derail his thread. As such, this is the last I have to say about the matter.