An Open Letter to the NPO

[bbrownso]

As other cries have been heard...

Friends > Infra

Those who roll together reroll together..

NPO will surely join them with their strong call.

Pride before peace!

NPO has been defeated. Their crimes have been tallied. They can squirm all they like, but they have been presented quite simple terms, easy ones. They can easily pay them off, and all crying about the harshness can simply come down to a reluctance to take your medicine. You were the aggressors. The world said no. You can give up now and listen to them, or be crushed further.

Well would Karma care to show us the list they finally decided on? I know I'm still waiting for that list to show up. Please start a new thread so we can discuss these "crimes." I have some time on my hands.

[Tromp]

So having 90% of NPO nations at ZI or near ZI, having NPO be willing to pay gazillion of reps, and having it diplomatically isolated isn't enough of a head start?

It's not really 90%. Even more so with the amount of money still around in NPO, which is something you admit yourself by offering more than we asked of you.

And I want to say it again here... If NPO somehow couldn't manage to abide to the term, there is a way to lower the amount of reps included.

If you went ahead and clearly stated that you would keep us at perpetual war it really would look bad for you and everything you stated you stand for. Also perpetual war isnt a easy thing to keep going really with a ever changing world political realities.

Its better to achieve what perpetual war would, via "surrender treaty".

It doesn't apply anyway, so speculating is not in my interest.

[Branimir]

That's a huge jump to make.

Really?

I repeat:

"So having 90% of NPO nations at ZI or near ZI, having NPO be willing to pay gazillion of reps, and having it diplomatically isolated isn't enough of a head start?"

We like lost around 18mil NS our nations are battered. If that is not enough, nothing ever really be.

[Vladimir]

No, actually. While it is a concern, we just want to get a head start over you, not completely remove you from this world.

It's a difference.

And if it truly was like that, we wouldn't have offered you any terms so you would actually get perpetual war.

So you're incorrect.

I was pointing out that the main Karma rhetoric is about how big a threat we are ('remember GW1' and all that ahistorical nonsense). I was further pointing out that we aren't a threat at all. I was thus stating that if you see us as a threat in our current position you will always see us as a threat, even if the NPO is just one woman waving a flag you will be agitating about the Evil Pacifican Empire just round the next corner. This important piece of Karma propaganda demonstrates the aim of Karma to crush the NPO forever since the aim is to ensure that we are 'never a threat again', whether through war or terms, and goes to further demonstrate why the idea that reparations are merely there to help rebuild the fighting alliances is incorrect (although in retrospect perhaps it would have been easier just to link to the multitude of ranking Karma officers directly stating such).

I do not believe Karma to be a homogeneous entity. It has been stated on these forums by key Karma players that some in the central group don't want any terms at all and do indeed favour straight war for disbandment. Others in the group obviously disagree and push for terms of some sort. The result is somewhere in between where everyone in Karma is happy: terms that we cannot accept, and that destroy us if we do.

Trinite, if Karma merely wants us out of sanction then there are other ways of achieving that, which don't require the complete decimation of every nation in our alliance followed by lengthy military/political/diplomatic subjugation and unaffordable reparations that'd either have to be paid over a period of years or (more likely in my opinion) result in a re-engagement of hostilities. If Karma is interested in such then they can reopen negotiations (and I mean 'negotiations', not 'sit here while we reiterate current terms that you've already rejected because they're our minimum') and I will help them form such ways.

[Branimir]

It's not really 90%. Even more so with the amount of money still around in NPO, which is something you admit yourself by offering more than we asked of you.

You are so fearful of us that it actually makes me feel cool, lol.

Seriously man, after the entire beating we took and destruction, if you think that we have enough magic money and magic aid slots to rebuild ourselves with huge reps in paying with a speedy hurry to overcome you then nothing I will ever say will manage to change your mind as fear of us is too strong.

[Tromp]

[...]

You keep repeating your own arguments, that isn't a good sign in a debate...

I can only stand by my words and say we definitely don't want to see any of you leave this world. As long as you don't take my word for truth I see no reason to keep on talking to you, so I'll leave this conversation.

[D34th]

Instead of addressing anyone in particular, I'll just make this one observation: The NPO claims that the terms given are unacceptable; yet they've given worse terms to many other alliances.

I have to say that in terms of money and tech just NpO had worse terms because we had to pay it with the top 40 nations and those terms weren't given by NPO. Even in proportion I fail to see what alliance received worse terms than NPO when we talk about cash or tech. Now if you are talking about viceroyship, PZI...

and just to you remember:

We will not sink into a smear war with them. Their sins are long, and they are known to us all. We will fight this war with no joy, and we will fight it with honor and dignity. We will not impose draconian terms, but we will not tolerate such underhanded tactics being employed against us. Our haste was unbecoming, and it was shameful, but our hand was forced. I hope that the population of Planet Bob will understand this, and forgive us our malfeasance.

Thank you.

On behalf of Karma,

Archon

Obs: One more time I have to say that I'm not a NPO defender or I'm trying to get white peace for them, I'm as always just pointing the hypocrisy of Karma in my opinion.

[Branimir]

I can only stand by my words and say we definitely don't want to see any of you leave this world.

Actions made by the side you are affiliated with, go to tell another story.

This convo is over from my part.

[Stargazer Alchemist]

You are so fearful of us that it actually makes me feel cool, lol.

Seriously man, after the entire beating we took and destruction, if you think that we have enough magic money and magic aid slots to rebuild ourselves with huge reps in paying with a speedy hurry to overcome you then nothing I will ever say will manage to change your mind as fear of us is too strong.

I'm sure you have the money.

6/29/2009 7:38:49 AM

"NPO Membership Rewards"

[Team: Red]

TinyVillages

Ruler: TinyVillages

New Pacific Order

[Team: Red]

Marsapanilia

Ruler: Troger

New Pacific Order

$3,000,000

0 Tech

0 Soldiers

Approved

6/29/2009 7:38:16 AM

"NPO Membership Rewards"

[Team: Red]

TinyVillages

Ruler: TinyVillages

New Pacific Order

[Team: Red]

Artemis

Ruler: Chaosdragon

New Pacific Order

$3,000,000

0 Tech

0 Soldiers

Approved

6/29/2009 7:37:31 AM

"NPO Membership Rewards"

[Team: Red]

TinyVillages

Ruler: TinyVillages

New Pacific Order

[Team: Red]

Arxendes Empire

Ruler: joseph1594

New Pacific Order

$3,000,000

0 Tech

0 Soldiers

Approved

6/29/2009 7:33:57 AM

"ZI Membership Rewards"

[Team: Red]

TinyVillages

Ruler: TinyVillages

New Pacific Order

[Team: Red]

Feuersturm Empire

Ruler: Feuersturm

New Pacific Order

$3,000,000

0 Tech

0 Soldiers

Approved

[Vladimir]

You keep repeating your own arguments, that isn't a good sign in a debate...

I can only stand by my words and say we definitely don't want to see any of you leave this world. As long as you don't take my word for truth I see no reason to keep on talking to you, so I'll leave this conversation.

I'm reexplaining my argument because you don't seem to understand it, hence why the explanation got longer and simpler each time.

If you don't want to see any of us leave this world then you are too late, since significant numbers already have (as far as I can tell most of our number loses come from nation deletions rather than surrenders). Refusing to negotiate while keeping us in an eternal war will no doubt see more. But this isn't an argument that I am making (as I was trying to explain).

Stargazer Alchemist, one member sending out $12 million is not equivalent to sending out $7 billion and 300k tech after a nuclear war. If I show you that I have one penny, it does not imply that I can afford to buy a car.

[The AUT]

Exactly. NPO surrender terms have not been forgiving towards those who lose the war, so why should the terms handed to you be given such a courtesy?

We will not sink into a smear war with them. Their sins are long, and they are known to us all. We will fight this war with no joy, and we will fight it with honor and dignity. We will not impose draconian terms

You can kind of see where Pacifica and co. were misled. People are saying Karma is just merely what goes around comes around but if this speech was such a rallying cry for the side called "Karma" what are they truly trying to accomplish? The self-righteous Londo Mollari has demanded 8 billion dollars and 300k tech in reps, the harshest reparations amount in the history of the game.

Karma has the right to do this but doing so they have to understand there is no way they can justify Archon's above statement other than just putting a spin on things. "Pacifica deserves it, we feel no pity," isn't very consistant with Archon's state of the Karma address.

You can't seek a change for all and punish the few. When you seek fairness you have to do it for all and not for the few.

[Branimir]

I'm sure you have the money.

You are ridiculous, all I have to say.

One does not rebuild years of NS in months, while paying gazillion of reps. One does not overcome a large coalition against him, just like that in the state where he is firmly defeated and unavoidably subjected under unfavorable econ./political terms for a large amount of time.

You are ridiculous.

[bkphysics]

People really seem to forget a lot of the facts about the terms:

1. Wars will only last 14 days (not 3 weeks) and this has been explained and reiterated numerous times by Karma officials.

2. After the results of those wars the NPOs rebuilding power and cash reserves are to be tabulated and reparations will be adjusted accordingly. Iterated numerous times by Karma officials.

I am in NO WAY INVOLVED IN THE NEGOTIATIONS and I know this.

Oh, and where did NPO offer to pay 3x the amount of reparations? I don't believe that was ever done???

[ColchestersKing]

Once again i offer this position on my part; If Karma and Pacifica wish to return to the table i offer to mediate IMPARTIALLY while i am a member of iFOK i will agree to be removed from the alliance and forums as well as the IRC thereby preventing any contact with FOK or iFOK during the time of discussion.

while this may be logistically difficult my suggestion is this the NPO pays a large sum to be held by an ally such as IRON or the GGA or if need be a Karma alliance this money is held for a period during which the NPO peace mode nations will be engaged in war for 14 days, following and its successful verification by an approved independent person(s) agreed upon by both parties the money will be returned and a period of 60 days will pass during which NPO nations will be allowed to rebuild there economies to a point deemed acceptable by both sides....at this point the staggered payment of reperations can begin

[Trinite]

Really?

I repeat:

"So having 90% of NPO nations at ZI or near ZI, having NPO be willing to pay gazillion of reps, and having it diplomatically isolated isn't enough of a head start?"

We like lost around 18mil NS our nations are battered. If that is not enough, nothing ever really be.

You're wrong. Clearly two weeks of your banks at war, a gazillion reps and being diplomatically isolated would be enough. I actually do think the reps are higher than they need to be. I think one week of wars and a little less reps would more than enough, but I'm not at the bargaining table and others think you're even scarier than I do. None of us are buying this "We can't be any more beat than we are now." nonsense you're trying to pull.

And where are you getting this 90% figure. You have 145(22%) nations with over 1000 infra and 445(68%) with over 100 infra. Do you just make these things up or do you honestly consider 4000 infra "close to ZI." Or is that where you think you'll be if you accept terms? If that was your question, then the answer is yes. Having 90% of NPO nations at ZI or near ZI, having NPO be willing to pay gazillion of reps, and having it diplomatically isolated IS enough of a head start .

[matt01867]

Thank you for the well thought out letter. But I would have to say that I personally fight for my comrades. My infra has never mattered one bit to me, it is the banner I wear on my heart that compels me to fight on.

Some would call me brainwashed and a drone, but I am none of those things. I merely fight for my beloved home and comrades, without them none of this planet would matter.

So yes, the fight will go on until everyone of my comrades is safe.

I have never been one to leave people behind, and I'm not about to start now.

I fight for something greater than myself, and it is worth shedding blood for.

I am glad that my Emperor refused such terms. As it would mean destruction for my comrades and leaving them to shoulder the burden of surrender by themselves.

We are one. We fight as one, and we make peace as one.

and by doing that NPO will lose a lot of money and there alliance wont be as strong

i would just take the peace offer and not fight if i were you

[Locke]

And as wonderful as that seems to NPO, it really doesn't work that way. The name Karma is just that, a name of a coalition that could just as easily have been called anything else. NPO can come on the forums and bluster about, saying that the reps are impossible all they want. I don't think people care. If people cared, they would do something about it. Looking around, the only ones arguing on your side are the ones stuck there for the duration.

Really? I know that I've come to bat for NPO on several occasions. I'm not the only one. There aren't many non-NPO members who argued that side, but they still exist; you can't make blanket statements like that.

Once again with the false assumptions, eh? Until very recently, it would not have been safe to admit any sympathy for FAN, now would it? You can't stifle debate at the point of a gun, and simultaneously argue that there were never any dissenting opinions to stifle, well, not unless you're the NPO.

NPO isn't the only one. I have a friend who was Atlantis gov once upon a time, and he's told me the same thing: FAN was a warmongering alliance that he wouldn't exactly want to see running free, even though he didn't like the way NPO handled it (he's not what you'd call a fan of NPO, TPF, or the rest of the Hegemony).

Instead of addressing anyone in particular, I'll just make this one observation: The NPO claims that the terms given are unacceptable; yet they've given worse terms to many other alliances.

So? If alliances accept worse terms, that's that. NPO doesn't feel like accepting these terms is good for their alliance. Both those beaten by the NPO and the NPO have made decisions over whether continuing the war or ending it is better for them. Those NPO beat considered it better, and NPO hasn't. They're all free to take or leave the terms.

No, actually. While it is a concern, we just want to get a head start over you, not completely remove you from this world.

It's a difference.

And if it truly was like that, we wouldn't have offered you any terms so you would actually get perpetual war.

So you're incorrect.

Tromp, you can say that, but I don't think NPO will listen. Karma is out to get NPO, there's no denying that, and because of that NPO isn't exactly going to be quick to trust you. I've talked to you, and I think you're an honorable guy, so I'm inclined to believe you when you say that you only want to take NPO down a few notches and not destroy them, but I can't see many Pacificans doing the same. The rabid PR effort at the start of the war hardly made me inclined to take Karma's word at face value either.

Well would Karma care to show us the list they finally decided on? I know I'm still waiting for that list to show up. Please start a new thread so we can discuss these "crimes." I have some time on my hands.

I'd like to see it as well.

You can kind of see where Pacifica and co. were misled. People are saying Karma is just merely what goes around comes around but if this speech was such a rallying cry for the side called "Karma" what are they truly trying to accomplish? The self-righteous Londo Mollari has demanded 8 billion dollars and 300k tech in reps, the harshest reparations amount in the history of the game.

Karma has the right to do this but doing so they have to understand there is no way they can justify Archon's above statement other than just putting a spin on things. "Pacifica deserves it, we feel no pity," isn't very consistant with Archon's state of the Karma address.

You can't seek a change for all and punish the few. When you seek fairness you have to do it for all and not for the few.

Just a quick factual correction, I'm pretty sure that the reps asked for were 7 billion and NPO offered 8 in return for the dropping of the war clause.

Edited July 2, 2009 by Locke

[Branimir]

People really seem to forget a lot

Yes, they do.

At one point they form a large coalition to fight an entity they called hegemony and described as evil and bad because of many things, one being draconian surrender terms which tend to result in an amount of players leaving the game. They say they are different, better then that will not do the same things and that their goal is to remove the hegemony from power and to defeat and destroy its perceived heart NPO.

Hegemony gone, NPO defeated, destroyed, around 18mil of NS went into ruble. Diplomatically already isolated it is only a shadow of the power it once was.

But what now, hold on,...thats not enough. Forget what was said before, forget all the propaganda, morality vs. realpolitik, forget all previously had pretenses (obviously false ones), previously described goals are not enough. No, now, when we won we can drop the propaganda charade as we don't need it and can push for what we wanted the entire time--- draconian terms for NPO set to not allow it to ever again breathe and live.

So now, like vampires we want to destroy the last dozen of NPO nations that already weren't destroyed like the rest 850+ nations and we want them to pay gazillions after that. 850+ NPO nations defeated in war isn't enough, many driven out isn't enough either, no. Now nothing really is enough then seeing NPO pick up its ball and leave. And they deserve it, right? They all always do,... You are morally clean, right? Its not like you are going against what you said,... Especially those that stood beside NPO for years, right?

[WcaesarD]

Those we gave terms to could have held out for better terms, but they did not. They accepted what they thought they could afford to handle. As will we, those terms given to us are beyond what we can afford, so thus we refuse them.

Simple really.

What about the alliances who never accepted terms because they weren't offered, or disbanded because the NPO wouldn't offer terms they felt reasonable and thus the leaders tried to save their members from having to pay them?

Really?

I repeat:

"So having 90% of NPO nations at ZI or near ZI, having NPO be willing to pay gazillion of reps, and having it diplomatically isolated isn't enough of a head start?"

We like lost around 18mil NS our nations are battered. If that is not enough, nothing ever really be.

I know you're smarter than this, the NPO isn't SUPPOSED to rebuild during reps, they're supposed to finish their wars, have each nation stabalize, and then that can pay the reps, while the rest rebuild or build. It's the same way every other alliance has done it in the past. No one is suggesting you do differently.

As for the draconian terms reference that everyone seems caught up on:

dra·co·ni·an (dr-kn-n, dr-)

adj.

Exceedingly harsh

This is CLEARLY a matter of opinion. And opinions on the subject will differ based off of amount of information, political alignment and other factors. No one would claim the terms weren't harsh at the time offered, but it was clearly the opinion of Karma that they were not overly harsh. It's not up to the NPO to decide what Karma thinks is harsh anymore than it's up to Karma to decide what NPO thinks is harsh. That being said, Karma is winning, and they get to make the offers at the negotiation table. If the Karma leaders are still as reasonable as they have been in the past, I'm sure they will reassess their reps amount in accordance with the damage NPO has caused and take into account their ability to repay.

And let's not focus too much on messengers, that was overdone both with GenLee and Londo delivering terms, whatever happened to don't shoot the messenger?

And as for the draconian terms

[WcaesarD]

*snip*

Diplomatically already isolated it is only a shadow of the power it once was.*snipp*

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but doesn't NPO still hold multiple treaties, including membership in at least one bloc?

Edit: And wouldn't these allies be willing to help rebuild lower nations if allowed to do so for an alliance they clearly hold as a friend? And for the record, I'm not asking about any alliance still fighting along with NPO.

Edited July 2, 2009 by WCaesarD

[Londo Mollari]

You can kind of see where Pacifica and co. were misled. People are saying Karma is just merely what goes around comes around but if this speech was such a rallying cry for the side called "Karma" what are they truly trying to accomplish? The self-righteous Londo Mollari has demanded 8 billion dollars and 300k tech in reps, the harshest reparations amount in the history of the game.

And the best part of it is all that stuff has to go directly to MY nation!

[Branimir]

I know you're smarter than this, the NPO isn't SUPPOSED to rebuild during reps

And I know you are smarter then this to understand my point. The amount of reps, but more so the preconditions to even get them, are set to drain any posibility for reasonable rebuilding, during or after terms. And you know, they can do that not arguing that. And we can decline such as well.

What is draconian and whatnot, many can make the point shady with a cop out how everything is subjective. But it doesn't work well, because mere look at the terms, and what was blabbed from karma mouths at the start of the war, makes the point clear again.

With that, I leave you. Have fun going in circles, good day.

edit: Clearing the meaning of the second sentence by better wording.

Edited July 2, 2009 by Branimir

[WcaesarD]

And I know you are smarter then this to understand my point. The amount of reps, preconditions to even achieve them, are set to drain any posibility for reasonable rebuilding, during or after terms. And you know, they can do that not arguing that. And we can decline such as well.

What is draconian and whatnot, many can make the point shady with a cop out how everything is subjective. But it doesn't work well, because mere look at the terms, and what was blabbed from karma mouths at the start of the war, makes the point clear again.

With that, I leave you. Have fun going in circles, good day.

That's why they're called negotiations, because it's a give and take. I wasn't there to watch the negotiations, but both sides seemed to come away thinking the other was too stubborn, perhaps it's time to start over with an arbiter in place. I would suggest asking someone from TDO, they're one of the neutrals who NPO never attacked.

[HeinousOne]

As other cries have been heard...

Friends > Infra

Those who roll together reroll together..

NPO will surely join them with their strong call.

Pride before peace!

NPO has been defeated. Their crimes have been tallied. They can squirm all they like, but they have been presented quite simple terms, easy ones. They can easily pay them off, and all crying about the harshness can simply come down to a reluctance to take your medicine. You were the aggressors. The world said no. You can give up now and listen to them, or be crushed further.

Hmm, doesn't MHA still hold a treaty in which part of that is not to flame each other? Way to take the high road.

That's a huge jump to make. You're still sanctioned, and have a decent amount of large nations untouched. Wanting to knock you down further is hardly tantamount to wanting to destroy NPO completely. That is absurd propaganda. You can either slowly fade into a less threatening position through a ridiculously long and boring war or jump out of hippy mode, take your lickings and begin to move on. It's completely up to you guys. You guys say it's better for NPO to take the former route, then so be it. I disagree, but I'm not in NPO, so it's not my decision. Stop trying to play the victim though. Nobody's buying it.

You're wrong. Clearly two weeks of your banks at war, a gazillion reps and being diplomatically isolated would be enough. I actually do think the reps are higher than they need to be. I think one week of wars and a little less reps would more than enough, but I'm not at the bargaining table and others think you're even scarier than I do. None of us are buying this "We can't be any more beat than we are now." nonsense you're trying to pull.

And where are you getting this 90% figure. You have 145(22%) nations with over 1000 infra and 445(68%) with over 100 infra. Do you just make these things up or do you honestly consider 4000 infra "close to ZI." Or is that where you think you'll be if you accept terms? If that was your question, then the answer is yes. Having 90% of NPO nations at ZI or near ZI, having NPO be willing to pay gazillion of reps, and having it diplomatically isolated IS enough of a head start .

Seriously, enough with the Spartan judgement. The ONLY thing that Sparta can judge NPO on is for the aggression on OV. Everything else you were right there with them so for you to be pushing the largest reps ever seen as being fair is equivalent to some extreme hypocrisy. You really should just allow the guy from FOK to do all the talking because they were not side by side with NPO for a long time through all the horrible things that these massive terms are meant to punish them for like you guys were.....

That's why they're called negotiations, because it's a give and take. I wasn't there to watch the negotiations, but both sides seemed to come away thinking the other was too stubborn, perhaps it's time to start over with an arbiter in place. I would suggest asking someone from TDO, they're one of the neutrals who NPO never attacked.

Something positive comes out of the thread after all. Who would have thought?

Edited July 2, 2009 by HeinousOne

[Jacques Cousteau]

And the best part of it is all that stuff has to go directly to MY nation!

Good old self-righteous Londo.

People don't seem to understand that they are lucky to have people like Londo dealing with things like terms and reparations.