An Open Letter to the NPO

[WcaesarD]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but doesn't NPO still hold multiple treaties, including membership in at least one bloc?

Edit: And wouldn't these allies be willing to help rebuild lower nations if allowed to do so for an alliance they clearly hold as a friend? And for the record, I'm not asking about any alliance still fighting along with NPO.

Way to ignore the entire point of my post.

I wasn't trying to prove your point, I was trying to prove mine. There are plenty of alliance out there with fewer allies than the NPO, they aren't alone, even if they don't have as many allies as they used to.

Also, I was saying, do we REALLY need to know the exact treaties listed here?

Edited July 2, 2009 by WCaesarD

[Blepo]

They just cancelled it and ignored whatever was written in the cancellation clause.

Who cares right? We're NPO, there was no outcry. There WAS a hailfest and 'congrats MHA' though.

As far as we're concerned, the treaty still stands... Yes, we didn't active the Optional Agression clause of the treaty, but that doesn't mean we just threw the whole treaty in the garbage can...

And as far as I know, neither of us (NPO or MHA) have activated the cancellation clause or said we'd cancel the treaty.

[Haflinger]

Echelon wasn't in Continuum, Echelon is in One Vision, which is an MDoAP bloc (well more of a bilateral alliance now)

Right. Echelon did have an MADP with you guys, and cancelled it.

The New Kids on the Block pact is an MDP level pact, not MADP.

No, it's not.

ARTICLE IV - Aggression

Whenever any nation, alliance, or union of alliances poses a clear and present danger to the signatories of this pact and is designated a threat by leadership of the signatories, all members of the High Contracting Parties unless bound by treaty to non-aggression or neutrality shall jointly respond. Such response shall only be sufficient to contain and eliminate the perceived threat and deter future threats.

It's a relatively weak MADP, but that clause compels aggression. It's not an MDP.

We still have a direct MDP with GGA.

No, you don't. It was cancelled here.

NATO is in the Watling Street Compact, we had an MADP and an MDoAP with them. They just cancelled the MADP. NATO is allied with you in the same bloc

NATO's allied to us in Purqua; I know how their foreign affairs are set up. I did list Watling Street Compact in my post.

I wasn't trying to prove your point, I was trying to prove mine. There are plenty of alliance out there with fewer allies than the NPO, they aren't alone, even if they don't have as many allies as they used to.

I think the point is that they are too isolated to be a threat to anyone.

They have a few allies remaining, none of which supported this war really, except TPF. All the people who always used to scheme wars and get the NPO to help them fight are pretty much out of the picture.

Also, I was saying, do we REALLY need to know the exact treaties listed here?

Hey, it's short enough.

If you want I can list the prewar treaties for comparison.

[HeinousOne]

As other cries have been heard...

Friends > Infra

Those who roll together reroll together..

NPO will surely join them with their strong call.

Pride before peace!

NPO has been defeated. Their crimes have been tallied. They can squirm all they like, but they have been presented quite simple terms, easy ones. They can easily pay them off, and all crying about the harshness can simply come down to a reluctance to take your medicine. You were the aggressors. The world said no. You can give up now and listen to them, or be crushed further.

When an alliance is at war seems to be the perfect time for a bashing session. And from the feel of the forums, the NPO members wishing to respond may be fiery and zealous, however, they are the ones likely to be drowned under the weight of the posts from our side of the rift.

As far as we're concerned, the treaty still stands... Yes, we didn't active the Optional Agression clause of the treaty, but that doesn't mean we just threw the whole treaty in the garbage can...

And as far as I know, neither of us (NPO or MHA) have activated the cancellation clause or said we'd cancel the treaty.

This is as I thought. So you would agree that the two quotes above yours would not exactly adhere to the part of that treaty that is meant to stop flaming from one side towards the other?

[Ogaden]

As far as we're concerned, the treaty still stands... Yes, we didn't active the Optional Agression clause of the treaty, but that doesn't mean we just threw the whole treaty in the garbage can...

And as far as I know, neither of us (NPO or MHA) have activated the cancellation clause or said we'd cancel the treaty.

Hmm you're right, I must have been thinking of TOP or something.

Edited July 2, 2009 by James Dahl

[Ogaden]

Setting me right

You're right, I missed a few cancellations.

[Blepo]

This is as I thought. So you would agree that the two quotes above yours would not exactly adhere to the part of that treaty that is meant to stop flaming from one side towards the other?

Yes, I do agree that LVNs posts are not in line with our treaty and even our general "hoopy" behaviour (we try, anyway) in general. I'll get back to him on that.

[Stravus]

The Order has not rejected reparations or surrender -- in fact we offered $8 billion and 300k tech, more than Karma is asking for and about 10 times the total reparations that we have received from dozens of wars (including 4 previous 'great wars') combined. But for Karma it is not about paying for the war, or their rebuilding, no, it is explicitly about 'preventing the NPO from ever being a threat again' -- that is to say, it is about preventing us from ever being able to rebuild (and let's face it, if they still see us as a threat as we stand at the moment, they're never going to be satisfied until every Pacifican is driven from the game).

Isn't this very similar to the situation FAN was in and yet we were not allowed peace for almost 2 years. I understand why you won't accept the present terms, but I just wanted to state that NPO is in a lot better shape than FAN was a year ago yet some how we were still a "threat." How is it possible that NPO is no longer a threat to the alliances that have battered your shores?

I think FAN (especially the long term members) understand your situation very well. I want to say and mean. Good luck may NPO and Karma come to terms soon. I hope there is never another war like VietFan.

Edited July 2, 2009 by Stravus

[muffasamini]

it could end with a word from Emperor Revenge

another person that is misinformed as to the reasonings behind our actions. We did not decline those terms on the basis that they were too harsh. And, moo is indeed suffering from this war, we have almost 400 members now in our lowest NS bracket.

The NPO has repeatedly stated its desire to accept peace and terms that even extremely harsh, are possible. We have stated that we'll accept them if them if certain added clauses making the terms impossible (we wont sign a document we know we'd be in violation of) are removed.

We have been defeated, now the burden of peace is on you.

[Weirdgus]

I would rather die on my feet than live a brief life on my knees followed by a shot to the back of the head.

This is a perfect summary of my feelings after reading the OP.

For Pacifica until the end of planet Bob!

o/

[KingEsus]

I enjoyed the OP. There aren't many in the order who do not desire peace. "Putting pressure upon your leadership"! hah! It's fairly obvious we want to surrender! All of us, from the IOs. to the frontline troops, to those of us in the slow death of peace mode!

But the terms offered are so cruel, so vindictive and impossible that I have to stand by my leadership. They were right to reject Karma's 'offer'.

On the main CN boards, I've seen talk of NPO members seeking revenge upon Karma ... I don't get the impression that any of us are even thinking about revenge. We just want an end to this.

Before this began, like others I know, we knew we had this coming... almost wanted it. But the illogical demands, the cruelty and the blatant hypocrisy, it's done nothing but reignite my passion for this alliance. Becuase you aren't "as bad as us", my stats mean nothing; 'Karma' is worse than anything before. Such sickening lies and hypocrisies, half of you were part of what you hold up as past wrongs, or using issues which you had nothing to do with... its pathetic. Burn in hell.

[Brehon]

Members of the New Pacific Order,

As the Karma war still rages i have had some time to think and while i am not a member of the order i can make some outside observations,

first the Positives, you have done your alliance proud it has taken most of planet bob to breach your walls and of that you can take great pride in this as can your leadership,

however a peace deal was tabled which was turned down and while i understand it was high in terms of reperations one must take into account that the war and the other wars which began from it have been just as if not more costly and this must be repaid.

i look at the economic power that lies within the order and cannot understand (OOC: another character of mine has been a member therefor know the rules and structure) how if the warchest guidelines have been followed and i know how rigourously they are enforced and those nations are back collecting how you cannot repay them following the prescribed war and once that is accomplished using the same unified nature that has defined the order you cannot rebuild and once again move up the sanction list.

Looking again from an outside perspective i see many soldier loosing pixels while this war continues yet it could end with a word from Emperor Revenge this to me seems to encompus the old adage "When the rich wage war its the poor that suffer" i do not advocate revolution or you forcing Moo to step down i mearly advocate putting pressure on your leadership to end this war.

I realise all to well that the NPO does not accept surrender or harsh terms very well but as a saying goes "Winning a war yet loosing an empire is no victory and Loosing a battle to save an empire is no defeat"

take this how you will Pacifica

Sincerly

ColchestersKing

iFOK Diplomatic envoy

Edit because I hit the submit in error, now for my response:

You speak as if you know me. You compliment me to belittle me and you expect me to take your word as if they are some type of gospel. How dare you. You find me so unintelligent to not see your propaganda as if you are personally in our shoes, as if you know anything about us? I think its time for you to get a bit of an education:

I am Pacifican, because I choose to be. Because being Pacifican is more than my nation, more than the machine you paint it to be. We are our brothers and sisters who enjoy each others company, conversations and interactions. We are more than our Emperor, our Imperial Officers and our Structure, we are a unity of people, CHOOSING to be together. And that is what galls you. That is what you cannot touch and causes you to seethe. And that, that my dear poster is what you cannot breach.

You think the average Pacifican sees this as a set of terms or conditions. You are wrong, so very wrong. We see it as the typical move of our enemies striving to find any fraction of self perceived fact to justify what they do, EVEN if its EXACTLY what they are targeting us for. We, as a whole, spit on your terms. We will not as a body, be dictated to in regards to throwing those we wish to protect into a fire without cause, ONLY to allow you to determine who of us will pay for your "win". How dare you. You would love to see us throw our brothers and sisters into that fire, just so you can then turn around and find another reason or another cause as if you are some judge and jury. Yes yes, I know "NPO has made itself judge and jury". Yes we have. We have had our victories and our defeats over it. You condemn us for it, then you use it as your shield. Can you at least find your own cause?

Do not insult us, the general Pacifican member, as if we are kept in the dark. You insult us in order to try and bend us to your will. I simply tell you to shove off. We are here, we are fighting and we will continue. Why? We dictate NPO current to the future, NOT YOU. NEVER YOU. You can break our nations, but you will not break our culture and you hate it. Its easy to hate what you don't understand and for that I can only offer you a moment of pity.

Edited July 3, 2009 by Brehon

[Ogaden]

Since the OP is so concerned for the welfare of NPO general membership, he should put pressure on the 18 alliances fighting us to remove the offending term that prevents us from accepting peace terms.

Edited July 3, 2009 by James Dahl

[Klonopin]

Members of the New Pacific Order,

As the Karma war still rages i have had some time to think and while i am not a member of the order i can make some outside observations,

first the Positives, you have done your alliance proud it has taken most of planet bob to breach your walls and of that you can take great pride in this as can your leadership,

however a peace deal was tabled which was turned down and while i understand it was high in terms of reperations one must take into account that the war and the other wars which began from it have been just as if not more costly and this must be repaid.

i look at the economic power that lies within the order and cannot understand (OOC: another character of mine has been a member therefor know the rules and structure) how if the warchest guidelines have been followed and i know how rigourously they are enforced and those nations are back collecting how you cannot repay them following the prescribed war and once that is accomplished using the same unified nature that has defined the order you cannot rebuild and once again move up the sanction list.

Looking again from an outside perspective i see many soldier loosing pixels while this war continues yet it could end with a word from Emperor Revenge this to me seems to encompus the old adage "When the rich wage war its the poor that suffer" i do not advocate revolution or you forcing Moo to step down i mearly advocate putting pressure on your leadership to end this war.

I realise all to well that the NPO does not accept surrender or harsh terms very well but as a saying goes "Winning a war yet loosing an empire is no victory and Loosing a battle to save an empire is no defeat"

take this how you will Pacifica

Sincerly

ColchestersKing

iFOK Diplomatic envoy

This wreaks of desperation. I vote we stay the course until some reasonable terms can be presented.

You can have my pixels. You CAN NOT take my NPO Family.

[Iceknave]

Forgive me if I'm not as eloquent in speech as some of my NPO comrades.

The terms as presented to NPO are so harsh that the minimum time for NPO to complete just paying the tech reps alone is anywhere from 7 months to almost 5 years. This is using the status of NPO as of June 12th or so as that was when I made my independent analysis on my own to determine whether the terms were payable or not.

This takes into account a number of variables including the following:

Tech Damages of 1.4k, 2k, and 3k in 2 weeks of blistering nuclear warfare.

Efficiency of 50% and 100%

The use of 5 Aid Slots per nation capable of paying reps under the Karma conditions as presented to the BR of NPO and as stated here.

1.4k Tech Damage 100% Efficiency: 7.4 months

1.4k Tech Damage 50% Efficiency: 14.8 months

2k Tech Damage 100% Efficiency: 13.3 months

2k Tech Damage 50% Efficiency: 26.6 months

3k Tech Damage 100% Efficiency: 28.6 months

3k Tech Damage 50% Efficiency: 57.2 months

Karma will make the argument that it is only nations that have at least 1k tech at the start of the 14 day war period that are eligible to pay tech reps. However, in the terms presented to NPO, such is NOT the case. The terms clearly state that only nations that have at least 1k tech at the END of the 14 day war period that are eligible to pay tech reps. The term mentioned I have quoted below for reference with the part that is interpreted by both sides differently in bold and have reconfirmed after speaking to one of my government's officials qualified as to speak of the exact terms presented.

B2) Reparations of up to 300,000 tech and $7,000,000,000 will be assessed upon the New Pacific Order. This shall be determined dependent on their ability to pay after the aforementioned period of war, in the judgment of the Karma signatories of this document. All reparations of technology must be paid by nations with greater than or equal to 1000.00 technology at the end of the above-mentioned 14 day period.

In the worst case of 3k tech damage per NPO nation, there would remain only 14 NPO nations eligible to pay tech reps. With 2k tech damage, only 30 NPO nations would be eligible and at 1.4k tech damage, only 54 nations would be eligible.

I am a member of the Body Republic of NPO and I have never been in a government position in NPO or in any alliance and even then I consider these terms to be so beyond harsh that stating these terms are draconian is being polite.

Karma calculations have pretty much always assumed that something in the neighborhood of 178 NPO nations would be eligible to pay reps. By the terms presented to NPO and to the Body Republic of NPO, such is not the case.

Karma may also make the argument that the reps terms would be adjusted after the 2 week war period based on NPO's ability to pay such terms. However, Karma fails to recognize that being in the superior position, espeically after 2 weeks of war, that it is far too easy to abuse the power and the opportunity presented to make it such that disbandment is preferable to being under Karma's dubious "guidance" even against the supposed "backlash" from the rest of the community. They may argue that the goal is to cripple NPO militarily, diplomatically, and economically. They have already done that. To me, it is unclear what the end goal of Karma is and it is always changing and rarely the same between any two individual members of Karma. When someone from Karma actually knows what it is, let the rest of us know, okay?

The sheer inability of NPO to pay these terms within a reasonable time frame is why members of the Body Republic of NPO have agreed with the NPO government's decision to reject these terms and the Body Republic of NPO have demanded from our government that we continue to fight until Karma is willing to sit down, shut up, and put together terms that are harsh AND reasonable.

I will post only the most likely case of 2k tech damages calculations as a reference below. 2k tech damage is what has been calculated to be the most likely amount of damage from 2 weeks of nuclear warfare by a number of members from both parties (it's actually a little bit more, but not enough to significantly change the results as presented below).

NPO Stats (As of June 12 when analysis was done):

178 Nations Above 1k Tech

Analysis assuming 2 weeks of war will yield 2k tech damage per nation, removing any nation that does not currently have at least 3k tech from consideration for paying tech reps.

30 Nations Above 3k tech

5 slots/cycle x 3 cycles/month x 50 tech/slot = 750 tech/month

750 tech/month x 30 nations = 22.5k Tech/month

300k tech/22.5k tech/month = 13.3 months

BUT wait, there's MORE.

Term B3 states the following:

3) To facilitate the speedy payment of reparations, a minimum of one sixth of the total reparations assessed must be disbursed each month (up to 50,000 tech and 1.16 billion dollars). In addition to this, the number of internal aid transactions active at any time must be less than or equal to the number of reparations transactions active at any time. External aid is forbidden.

Even at 5 slots used per nation capable of paying reps in B2, in the most likely case, NPO would fall short by nearly HALF of the tech requested in the first month!

In addition, this term assumes that the ENTIRE sum of reps can be paid in 6 months and yet with up to 2k tech damages at 100% efficiency, it would take a minimum of 13.3 months.

This, ladies and gentlemen of the community is why it is impossible for NPO to pay such large reps and why they were rejected by both the NPO government and the Body Republic of NPO.

Likely, this reasonable post by a member of NPO will be flamed, burned, and crisped just because it was presented by a member of NPO. That is to be expected.

I've already burned something in the neighborhood of 50 million cash (infrastructure converted into cash and combined with warchest) and have lost virtually all of the tiny 7.2k NS that I had 2 months ago that I spent months building up to. It was worth it to defend my alliance against the tyranny of a supposed arrival of a "Golden Age" of strength, peace, and prosperity.

If you managed to get all the way down to here, I thank you for your attention and willingness to read through my long post.

[muffasamini]

Bullseye. The point we are at now is due to those fighting NPO not wanting to give an inch else they be blamed for giving NPO some sort of small victory.

Enjoy the year long war guys! Your pride deserves it.

And thats the biggest problem here. That is illogical. Everyone know's Karma whooped NPO very very badly. Its silly to say that they would rather keep this war going then give up a small side clause. They are worried that that would concede a "defeat" for KARMA. Its not! Thats called negotiating, and its expected that there will be concessions on both sides. Were only asking for an inch so we can get to paying karma alliances the largest terms in history.

[KingEsus]

Forgive me if I'm not as eloquent in speech as some of my NPO comrades...

*snip*

In the worst case of 3k tech damage per NPO nation, there would remain only 14 NPO nations eligible to pay tech reps. With 2k tech damage, only 30 NPO nations would be eligible and at 1.4k tech damage, only 54 nations would be eligible.

I am a member of the Body Republic of NPO and I have never been in a government position in NPO or in any alliance and even then I consider these terms to be so beyond harsh that stating these terms are draconian is being polite.

Karma calculations have pretty much always assumed that something in the neighborhood of 178 NPO nations would be eligible to pay reps. By the terms presented to NPO and to the Body Republic of NPO, such is not the case.

Karma may also make the argument that the reps terms would be adjusted after the 2 week war period based on NPO's ability to pay such terms. However, Karma fails to recognize that being in the superior position, espeically after 2 weeks of war, that it is far too easy to abuse the power and the opportunity presented to make it such that disbandment is preferable to being under Karma's dubious "guidance" even against the supposed "backlash" from the rest of the community. They may argue that the goal is to cripple NPO militarily, diplomatically, and economically. They have already done that. To me, it is unclear what the end goal of Karma is and it is always changing and rarely the same between any two individual members of Karma. When someone from Karma actually knows what it is, let the rest of us know, okay?

The sheer inability of NPO to pay these terms within a reasonable time frame is why members of the Body Republic of NPO have agreed with the NPO government's decision to reject these terms and the Body Republic of NPO have demanded from our government that we continue to fight until Karma is willing to sit down, shut up, and put together terms that are harsh AND reasonable.

I will post only the most likely case of 2k tech damages calculations as a reference below. 2k tech damage is what has been calculated to be the most likely amount of damage from 2 weeks of nuclear warfare by a number of members from both parties (it's actually a little bit more, but not enough to significantly change the results as presented below).

NPO Stats (As of June 12 when analysis was done):

178 Nations Above 1k Tech

Analysis assuming 2 weeks of war will yield 2k tech damage per nation, removing any nation that does not currently have at least 3k tech from consideration for paying tech reps.

30 Nations Above 3k tech

5 slots/cycle x 3 cycles/month x 50 tech/slot = 750 tech/month

750 tech/month x 30 nations = 22.5k Tech/month

300k tech/22.5k tech/month = 13.3 months

BUT wait, there's MORE.

Term B3 states the following:

Even at 5 slots used per nation capable of paying reps in B2, in the most likely case, NPO would fall short by nearly HALF of the tech requested in the first month!

In addition, this term assumes that the ENTIRE sum of reps can be paid in 6 months and yet with up to 2k tech damages at 100% efficiency, it would take a minimum of 13.3 months.

This, ladies and gentlemen of the community is why it is impossible for NPO to pay such large reps and why they were rejected by both the NPO government and the Body Republic of NPO.

Likely, this reasonable post by a member of NPO will be flamed, burned, and crisped just because it was presented by a member of NPO. That is to be expected.

I've already burned something in the neighborhood of 50 million cash (infrastructure converted into cash and combined with warchest) and have lost virtually all of the tiny 7.2k NS that I had 2 months ago that I spent months building up to. It was worth it to defend my alliance against the tyranny of a supposed arrival of a "Golden Age" of strength, peace, and prosperity.

If you managed to get all the way down to here, I thank you for your attention and willingness to read through my long post.

Wow. Well said comrade. Well said.

Despite all the eloquent arguments i've seen, its never been said so clearly... thankyou.

[Trinite]

<snip>

Even 1.4K seems like a lot of tech to lose in 2 weeks. Do you have the numbers for that (or a link to the numbers)? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just haven't seen the math.

Edit: Ignoring tech and improvements, I get (13 nukes x 50 tech = 650) + (14 defeat alerts x 10 tech = 140) + (82 CMs x 2 tech = 164) = 954 tech

This is ignoring tech bonus which can do quite a bit, but the higher tech damages will likely be against those with more tech giving more of a cushion to that 1K tech level. Did I miss anything?

Edited July 3, 2009 by Trinite

[Iceknave]

Even 1.4K seems like a lot of tech to lose in 2 weeks. Do you have the numbers for that (or a link to the numbers)? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just haven't seen the math.

A member of the Imperial Bank of NPO, Cortath, has already posted on the subject of tech losses. You may read his conclusions here. Cortath's estimate was 2115.2 tech for 2 weeks of nuclear warfare.

Bob Janova, a highly respected member of the community and member of The Order of Grämlins (as I understand it), had revised Cortath's estimate here and came up with the value of 1670 tech lost in 2 weeks of nuclear warfare.

Both of these values are within my stated possible range of tech damages and even then it still exceeds the assumed time frame of 6 months for repayment of all reps.

It is difficult to sift through the thousands of posts to find a specific post, so this is what I could find in a short time, which presents both sides.

Edit in response to Trintie's edit: You are missing aircraft damages. In addition, you assume that Karma will not pick its best, its brightest, and its most bloodthirsty nations to fight in this 2 week period of nuclear warfare. Such is unlikely as they will be eager for blood after several weeks of having nothing to do, but send money to nations down below.

Edited July 3, 2009 by Iceknave

[KingEsus]

Even 1.4K seems like a lot of tech to lose in 2 weeks. Do you have the numbers for that (or a link to the numbers)? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just haven't seen the math.

Check out the charts on this example. http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_d...&Extended=0

Its a reasonable assessment.

[Big Z]

Your analysis is flawed. Your 30 nations figure is very inaccurate, especially if you care to read the terms:

All reparations of the 300,000 technology must be paid by nations with greater than or equal to 1000.00 technology upon the signing of these terms.

That means all 178 nations over 1K tech can pay off the terms, rather than the 30 you suggest. That would mean NPO can pay 133,500 technology at maximum slot efficiency, not including the usage of DRAs, per month.

Those at zero tech (or close to it) after the two weeks of war can use their warchests to purchase tech to send it out.

Edited July 3, 2009 by Big Z

[LeVentNoir]

B2) Reparations of up to 300,000 tech and $7,000,000,000 will be assessed upon the New Pacific Order. This shall be determined dependent on their ability to pay after the aforementioned period of war, in the judgment of the Karma signatories of this document. All reparations of technology must be paid by nations with greater than or equal to 1000.00 technology at the end of the above-mentioned 14 day period.

NPO. Please read. Not selectively, but at the whole text. Big Z has it right.

[Lady Red]

Dear Karma,

The details of the surrender terms you've offered us have been discussed, debated and denied. You can feel free to continue to argue who is at fault for (enter any event of your choosing here) in CN History. You can continue to insist that Pacifica has (enter any event of your choosing here) in the past and that makes us deserving of whatever you see fit to bestow upon us. You can declare from the highest mountain that you are the NPO's judge, jury and executioner. That won't change the fact that the terms have been discussed, debated, and denied. I'm sorry if this ruins your plans for the after party. We remain stuck in the negotiation phase of peace negotiation. And unless someone gets past their holier-than-thou attitude, we'll probably remain there for a long time coming.

Further, as a nation who has dropped nearly all of her NS in this war, I'd be quite disappointed if my leadership surrendered to peace terms that involve more war. Particularly when those terms are being offered up by alliances whose members flood these boards with calls for our heads. My nation will not bow down and put its head on the chopping block, like a guilt-ridden criminal. I'm sorry if my continued pride in the face of annihilation upsets you. All I can offer you for your trouble is a coke and a smile.

Someone has ranted in one of the many threads about how evil Pacifica is that soon, there will be no one left in Pacifica but the diehards. That we would have destroyed the rest of our alliance by continuing this war. This, Karma, I believe to be your biggest miscalculation. You have absolutely no idea how much of Pacifica is made of diehards. You will understand that eventually though. And I'll still be in Pacifica when you do.

Hugs and Kisses,

Red

[Iceknave]

Your analysis is flawed. Your 30 nations figure is very inaccurate, especially if you care to read the terms:

That means all 178 nations over 1K tech can pay off the terms, rather than the 30 you suggest. That would mean NPO can pay 133,500 technology at maximum slot efficiency, not including the usage of DRAs, per month.

Did you or did you not read the quoted portion of the terms for surrender? There is a reason WHY I quoted portions of the surrender documents presented to NPO.

The terms as presented to the Body Republic of NPO AND in the Imperial Decree announcing the rejection of the terms linked in my post, clearly states the following:

All reparations of technology must be paid by nations with greater than or equal to 1000.00 technology at the end of the abovementioned 14 day period.

Please see this statement by the Emperor of NPO, TrotskysRevenge, which clearly states what I stated above in this post and in my earlier post.

In addition, I had the terms confirmed by an Imperial Officer of NPO before posting this analysis.

@LeVentNoir

Please do not selectively read my analysis as well. In my analysis, I stated the following:

Karma may also make the argument that the reps terms would be adjusted after the 2 week war period based on NPO's ability to pay such terms. However, Karma fails to recognize that being in the superior position, espeically after 2 weeks of war, that it is far too easy to abuse the power and the opportunity presented to make it such that disbandment is preferable to being under Karma's dubious "guidance" even against the supposed "backlash" from the rest of the community.

When in a superior position, terms are dictated by the one in the superior position, not by the one in the inferior position as is often stated by members of Karma. Logically, there is no reason for Karma to adjust the terms to reflect the ability of NPO to pay said terms while being in the superior position.

Edited July 3, 2009 by Iceknave

[Big Z]

Did you or did you not read the quoted portion of the terms for surrender? There is a reason WHY I quoted portions of the surrender documents presented to NPO.

The terms as presented to the Body Republic of NPO AND in the Imperial Decree announcing the rejection of the terms linked in my post, clearly states the following:

Please see this statement by the Emperor of NPO, TrotskysRevenge, which clearly states what I stated above in this post and in my earlier post.

In addition, I had the terms confirmed by an Imperial Officer of NPO before posting this analysis.

Yet, the terms I quoted are the actual terms and those that were conveyed to NPO leadership as well. Considering I have the Karma forums up as I'm typing this, I would care to say that the terms I posted are more up to date than yours.