An Open Letter to the NPO

[Azhrarn]

I didn't put words in your mouth, I asked a question, which you didn't answer.

I'd barely heard of Atlantis. Why would I be expected to know anything about them until you accused us of being responsible for their demise? I've seen accusations that we've destroyed this and that alliance, but not this one until your posts today. Perhaps if you'd answered that question, I'd have a starting point to begin looking.

Atlantis was a 500 member strong, sanctioned alliance on the White team. And you've barely heard of them? Atlantis had MDPs with both the VE and GR, both of which alliances are at war with you right now. Please tell me you've heard of the VE and GR.

And your "question" has been repeatedly answered. You just refuse to accept it. Not that you're really asking a question anyway. What you're actually doing is just repeating an accusation over and over again for propaganda value.

[Yggdrazil]

Only if you wear the NPO's banner are you guilty. Spread though out Karma are former members, who were participants in the very Evils you continually bring up. I expect war declaration from Karma against Karma soon.

[Lord of Destruction]

I'll use a favorite NPO hater answer to your post. Stockholm syndrome?

You only left us yesterday and the venom is spewing out already.

Actually, ask around. This was my opinion before I left the Order.

[Azhrarn]

Only if you wear the NPO's banner are you guilty. Spread though out Karma are former members, who were participants in the very Evils you continually bring up. I expect war declaration from Karma against Karma soon.

I expect pigs to fly.

[Cataduanes]

As an NPO member who has been on board for (only) a little over a year, I have read that I should show remorse for something that happened in the past.

I stand ready to discuss my feelings over any past incident.

First though, please post your understanding of what it was we did, to whom you understand we did it, and when it was that you believe it was done.

Any insight you have as to why we did it would be appreciated also.

I'll then correlate the above with our internally recorded incident history and an objective discussion can then follow.

heh so you want to go over the whole history of Pax Pacifica?? wow i thought as a member you would be well aware of your alliance's various exploits! i think Stumpy puts it best...

It is not a case of you the individual being to blame but it is a case that the AA you fly carries alot of baggage regardless of how much time you have spent with the NPO , but if you want to have a huge discussion on Pacifican history then by all means post a new thread....no doubt many of us will be more than happy to put forward our strong views on the subject.

As for touching upon why? well the last time i danced with NPO was in the GATO-1V war, a war in which your alliance spurned GATO's efforts to seek peace from day one...a war in which we accepted the unprecendeted demands placed upon us (No peace mode allowed for example), a war in which no respect was shown whatsoever, a war which ended with a victorious Order placing a Viceroy for an 'indefinate' period of time and erasing chunks of the old GATO Forum (a dispicable act that burns in my heart to this day)...why did the Order act in such a fashion? i have no diea perhaps you as a Pcifican can shed light upon it.

The onus is not on me to tell you the history of your own community, it is on you the besieged Pacifican to find out for yourself why so many in CN have not one iota of sympathy for Pacifica but i suspect that is why you replied to my quip in the first place . Remorse for the crimes of a community is part and parcel of a members duty, i for one feel deeply the shame of my own alliances past mistakes despite myself not playing a part on any level in most of them, and in all my endeavors i am ever mindful of the weight i and my peers carry...one cannot wipe away the sins of yesterday but one can by exmaple and sincere regret begin to try make amends for it. I look forward to your thread

Edited July 4, 2009 by Cataduanes

[Waterana]

Atlantis was a 500 member strong, sanctioned alliance on the White team. And you've barely heard of them? Atlantis had MDPs with both the VE and GR, both of which alliances are at war with you right now. Please tell me you've heard of the VE and GR.

And your "question" has been repeatedly answered. You just refuse to accept it. Not that you're really asking a question anyway. What you're actually doing is just repeating an accusation over and over again for propaganda value.

If you look at my join date for this forum compared to my post count, you'll notice that I'm not exactly one of the most' out and about' members. In fact, I've posted more on this forum in the last couple of days than the last 12 months. So, no, sorry, I know little about Atlantis. My focus is usually internal to my alliance and its allies, and Atlantis was never one of them. I'm not a diplomat, not government, and don't sit in tons of other alliance's IRC rooms or join their forums.

Yes, I know of the other two alliances. They are part of the Karma group who are waging eternal war against us now. We fought GR sometime in the past, it has ex NAAC members in it, don't know how many, and it's on blue. I watched the VE war and their disbandment from Legion, was upset by it and thought the whole war stupid and un-necessary, then cheered when they reformed and we signed a treaty with them. Was happy to see them back then, and that was really dumb of me considering what they're doing now.

I asked a question, which none of you are willing to answer. If Karma does want an end to this war, and I am totally wrong, then surely an agreement is possible where we get to survive, and you lot get this stupid fear of us in the future allayed. The current terms can never be accepted, all of you must realise that by now

Edited July 4, 2009 by Waterana

[Stargazer Alchemist]

If Karma does want an end to this war, and I am totally wrong, then surely an agreement is possible where we get to survive, and you lot get this stupid fear of us in the future allayed. The current terms can never be accepted, all of you must realise that by now

So you guys can disband alliances and impose all these restrictions on those who you defeat, but likewise isn't acceptable? You can dish out the punishment, but when the shoe is on the other foot, the Propaganda and Pity Machine goes into overdrive.

As I said a few pages back;

Anyone ever notice that when the little man is being oppressed and treated harshly, no one seems to care but when the Oppressors become the Oppressed it's the greatest tragedy in the world?

Personally, I believe after all the hell Pacifica has caused other alliances, you guys deserve whatever is coming to you.

Edited July 4, 2009 by Stargazer Alchemist

[Walt Schmidt]

heh so you want to go over the whole history of Pax Pacifica??

That is not what I said -- I said:

I stand ready to discuss my feelings over any past incident.

First though, please post your understanding of what it was we did, to whom you understand we did it, and when it was that you believe it was done.

Any insight you have as to why we did it would be appreciated also.

I'll then correlate the above with our internally recorded incident history and an objective discussion can then follow.

Since subjectivity breeds anecdotal opinions, I suggested we try for objective analysis; not our whole history - rather, starting with one incident.

[Cortath]

I just want to say one thing here:

How do you think they felt when Pacifica did it to them?

Here's a hint:

The same way. Yet Pacifica never faltered from the line of action you're now angry over.

Actually, ask around. This was my opinion before I left the Order.

Your posts deeply disappoint me.

[Cataduanes]

That is not what I said -- I said:

Since subjectivity breeds anecdotal opinions, I suggested we try for objective analysis; not our whole history - rather, starting with one incident.

oh i see , well in that case where do we start!?! we have so many to choose from . SO why not choose GATO, it is a recent conflict and remains fresh in more than few peoples minds. I already outlined the sort of things that i as an individual took offense to during that conflict and i remain unable to point out the motivation of the NPO for treating GATO like a piece of !@#$ on someones shoe during that conflict. I am sure that you remember the GATO conflict well enough or was that before your entrance into CN/NPO?.

Was the demands placed on GATO in the battlefield justified? was our (GATO) treatment during and after the conflict not worthy of a degree of regret? especially as GATO could never be considered a threat to anyone in the run up to the war? (well except OFS who choose to dance with GATO and paid the price).

Edited July 4, 2009 by Cataduanes

[Haflinger]

Was the demands placed on GATO in the battlefield justified? was our (GATO) treatment during and after the conflict not worthy of a degree of regret?

During the conflict with the Global Alliance Treaty Organization, the New Pacific Order declared that those GATO nations in peace mode would be subjected to permanent ZI. Though this decree was never enforced, and no GATO nation was ever so subjected, we do wish to state that this decree was a mistake and it was wrong. We realize that nations probably rerolled because of this, and we apologize to them and to GATO in general for this action.

That looks like a degree of regret to me.

[Cataduanes]

good point Haf , yet an apology for one aspect of the war is simply not enough, what about the deletion of certain portions of the old forum? or the fact that certain GATO members were forced out of the alliance after the war by the viceroy? or what about the sort of abusive rhetoric that was thrown at GATO without remorse? and hell what about that the length of time GATO had to endure occupation? And besides GATO is not the only example of 'Pax Pacifica' we could use, its just the one i decided to elaborate on...i am sure others can provide their own experiences in other alliances which endured similar at the hands of the Order.

Edited July 4, 2009 by Cataduanes

[Haflinger]

good point Haf , yet an apology for one aspect of the war is simply not enough, what about the deletion of certain portions of the old forum? or the fact that certain GATO members were forced out of the alliance after the war by the viceroy? or what about the sort of abusive rhetoric that was thrown at GATO without remorse? and hell what about that the length of time GATO had to endure occupation? And besides GATO is not the only example of 'Pax Pacifica' we could use, its just the one i decided to elaborate on...i am sure others can provide their own experiences in other alliances which endured similar at the hands of the Order.

I'm pretty sure that GATO have the claim to worst treatment by the NPO, and they've gone on record specifically stating that they don't want to be used as an example. (My suspicion is that's because of the efforts of guys like bakamitai and Cortath, who I doubt you ever met while you were there.)

The thing is, NPO's a large organization, and have been involved in a lot of different situations. Sometimes they've done terrible things. (Sometimes they've done good things, as well. That gets overlooked.) I suspect that if Karma wanted a detailed breakdown of all the sins of Pacifica in the past, with specific apologies, it could probably be done. However the overriding thread on the forums has been the GATO peace mode demand, and so that's what Moo apologized for.

To be honest, I'm not sure an itemized list of sins to be apologized for would be a good precedent though. It would make the victims feel a bit better, but you risk getting into cycle situations, where alliances' ancient pasts are constantly being used against them. Imagine if people wanted to attack MK for "supporting the GOONS OOC attack" because they never apologized for it. It'd be crazy.

[Lord Rune]

I'm pretty sure that GATO have the claim to worst treatment by the NPO, and they've gone on record specifically stating that they don't want to be used as an example. (My suspicion is that's because of the efforts of guys like bakamitai and Cortath, who I doubt you ever met while you were there.)

We in GATO don't wish to be used as an example by those in Karma, nor do we wish to be used by NPO as an illustration of how well they claim we did under the viceroy.

[Cortath]

good point Haf , yet an apology for one aspect of the war is simply not enough, what about the deletion of certain portions of the old forum? or the fact that certain GATO members were forced out of the alliance after the war by the viceroy? or what about the sort of abusive rhetoric that was thrown at GATO without remorse? and hell what about that the length of time GATO had to endure occupation? And besides GATO is not the only example of 'Pax Pacifica' we could use, its just the one i decided to elaborate on...i am sure others can provide their own experiences in other alliances which endured similar at the hands of the Order.

The NPO did not delete any portion of the old forum, or the new one, for that matter.

[NoFish]

If you look at my join date for this forum compared to my post count, you'll notice that I'm not exactly one of the most' out and about' members. In fact, I've posted more on this forum in the last couple of days than the last 12 months. So, no, sorry, I know little about Atlantis. My focus is usually internal to my alliance and its allies, and Atlantis was never one of them. I'm not a diplomat, not government, and don't sit in tons of other alliance's IRC rooms or join their forums.

So your argument is that you're ignorant of it so it doesn't matter? Riiight.

I asked a question, which none of you are willing to answer. If Karma does want an end to this war, and I am totally wrong, then surely an agreement is possible where we get to survive, and you lot get this stupid fear of us in the future allayed. The current terms can never be accepted, all of you must realise that by now

I did answer it, you called me a liar.

[Vol Navy]

Really no use in arguing this. As certain NPO members have stated, the NPO ceasing to exist and certain members never playing CN again are the only way some of these people will ever get over their hurt feelings over things that happened years ago and even then some people will never get over them.

People act like no NPO action in their alliance history was ever justified or correct. They never had a valid CB in their entire existance.

Many even bring up things that NPO had little or nothing to do with and blame NPO anyway.

Many of the people who are blaming NPO now were marching right along side NPO while the actions that have them mad are occuring.

The 1000 nations oppressing 29000 nations argument being played out over and over.

But it becomes more clear every day that all Pacifica has to do is hold on for a little while longer. Bob is still pressure packed and another major war looms closer every day. See the NSO/Neutrals incident that unfolded in the past 24 hours for how quickly things can flare up.

Had that escalated a bit more several major blocs would have been in the fray if Gram was going to support the color friendly neutrals.

Finally, it's been pointed out many many times that no one can force an alliance to disband. Atlantis, an example used a page or two ago, chose to give up their alliance and it was without a shot being fired. In their disbandment notice one of their own said they disbanded due to internal problems.

This is a quote from an Atlantean in that thread, he makes several other posts about how this was a majorly internal issue in the thead.

(winstonopai @ Mar 17 2008, 06:55 AM)

Sad, sad, sad. Thanks for the rivalry, TPF, y'all won. Though the self-destruction was brought on by infighting and power-struggles, which could easily have been avoided if a handful of our members acted more maturely than four year olds. Then again, ya can't always get whatcha want...

But yeah, the NPO forced Atlantis to disband. Atlantis wasn't in any way responsible for their own demise, they didn't do it because of any problems they were having internally nor did they choose to disband to avoid pixel loss from a potential war with tC.

It was simply Pacifica threatening to use their mighty disbandment nukes that wipe away your AA tag permanently as they had so many times in the past. I was shocked that Admin took them from Pacifica before this war started.

[Cortath]

If only we had the disbandment nukes now, eh Vol Navy?

[Lady Red]

I did answer it, you called me a liar.

I can only see and relate to what is in front of me. So this is strictly what I perceive and can be argued endlessly against what the rest of you perceive without result.

We were given terms which would require a great deal of humility to accept. Something Karma professes we don't have. We proceeded to humble ourselves in peace talks and to accept all terms accept one pesky little requirement which would involve the continued warfare on our only source of paying these reps. Because that's the only way Pacifica retains some light at the end of the tunnel where we will actually be able to get out of these terms one day.

Karma, perhaps unfamiliar with the victorious side of Peace Negotiations, feels flustered that they are actually expected to negotiate.

Some of Karma sees this as a perfect opportunity to kill Pacifica once and for all.

The rest are neither blind nor foolish, so they see this too. But turn a blind eye so as not to upset the lopsided apple cart that is Karma. It's very profitable for them in the end to keep their mouth shut now. And to be fair, they have no love-loss for Pacifica. Why should they stand up for us now, even if what is happening is wrong?

They then proceed to profess that they are moral and merciful. That Pacifica's doom was not orcestrated by them at all. This is a lie for both above situations.

The only question remaining in my mind, is which type of liar are you?

[Walt Schmidt]

SO why not choose GATO...

- i remain unable to point out the motivation of the NPO for treating GATO like a piece of !@#$ on someones shoe during that conflict.

- Was the demands placed on GATO in the battlefield justified?

- was our (GATO) treatment during and after the conflict not worthy of a degree of regret? especially as GATO could never be considered a threat to anyone in the run up to the war?

I asked that:

- Please post your understanding of what it was we did,

- To whom you understand we did it, and

- When it was that you believe it was done.

- Any insight you have as to why we did it would be appreciated also.

- I'll then correlate the above with our internally recorded incident history and an objective discussion can then follow.

Not exactly the objective declarations I had hoped for.

As I do not believe we treated GATO 'like a piece of !@#$ on someones shoe,' my only response can be... my recollections are different.

If you post objective facts that can be, likewise, responded to objectively... that is how I promise I will respond.

[Cortath]

Let me understand this: you’re asking me to go away, and find someone else to fight your argument for you. You asking me to root out evidence to back up your argument and to prove you right when I am the one opposing what you say and asking you to produce evidence to back up what you are saying.

Here you go. Read my sigs. Come back and have a nice day.

[o ya baby]

We in GATO don't wish to be used as an example by those in Karma, nor do we wish to be used by NPO as an illustration of how well they claim we did under the viceroy.

It doesn't really matter what you want, to be honest. People will use you as an example whether you like it or not.

[Seerow]

We in GATO don't wish to be used as an example by those in Karma, nor do we wish to be used by NPO as an illustration of how well they claim we did under the viceroy.

I'm curious, what was your position in GATO prior to the NPO Viceroyship?

[Morte]

The NPO did not delete any portion of the old forum, or the new one, for that matter.

This is true (afaik). The various portions of the forums ceased to exist as a part of the alliance, but their past was retained when they were archived.

I'm curious, what was your position in GATO prior to the NPO Viceroyship?

Roughly the same as it is now, just in a different Ministry.

[TypoNinja]

Here you go. Read my sigs. Come back and have a nice day.

Your sigs have been so throughly discredited its a wonder you bother to keep them there anymore, are you trying to convince us or yourself?