Will NPO's membership revolt?

[Bob Janova]

They've really been fed some pretty impressive propaganda if that is the case. How a defensive war against an NPO attack can possibly be a continuation of the aggressive attack on Polar is very hard to imagine, never mind the fact that many of the main players in Karma fought for Polar (or Hyperion/GR), that many in the Hegemony fought against Polar or Hyperion/GR, and that the reasons for war are completely different in almost every way.

That would be like me saying it's a continuation of the NADC war ... i.e., it makes no sense whatsoever .

[Haflinger]

They've really been fed some pretty impressive propaganda if that is the case. How a defensive war against an NPO attack can possibly be a continuation of the aggressive attack on Polar is very hard to imagine, never mind the fact that many of the main players in Karma fought for Polar (or Hyperion/GR), that many in the Hegemony fought against Polar or Hyperion/GR, and that the reasons for war are completely different in almost every way.

That would be like me saying it's a continuation of the NADC war ... i.e., it makes no sense whatsoever .

Citadel and SF fought against Polar, and then against NPO. Many of the same people were leadership in Coalition and Karma; the only major Coalition leader in Hegemony was chefjoe.

The people who believe this think that the war against the Polars was designed to weaken Pacifica's defenses by disabling their oldest and closest ally, and as a bonus break down the relationship between the Orders. It's not illogical, but you need to be a telepath to verify whether the theory is true.

[Kahnite]

I have been wondering, if the NPO government keeps the war up because they wont accept terms presented to them, will there be a point where the membership will revolt? or another government member will stage a coup?

Did you ever consider that the terms are so ridiculous that no one in their right mind would accept? Maybe you should do a poll on that, a more accurate question. Can't figure out who's handing the wacky weed out to Karma.

[Teriethien]

Did you ever consider that the terms are so ridiculous that no one in their right mind would accept? Maybe you should do a poll on that, a more accurate question. Can't figure out who's handing the wacky weed out to Karma.

Welcome to 24 pages ago.

[raincoat2]

Citadel and SF fought against Polar, and then against NPO. Many of the same people were leadership in Coalition and Karma; the only major Coalition leader in Hegemony was chefjoe.

The people who believe this think that the war against the Polars was designed to weaken Pacifica's defenses by disabling their oldest and closest ally, and as a bonus break down the relationship between the Orders. It's not illogical, but you need to be a telepath to verify whether the theory is true.

I think its very illogical considering that Pacifica was the the one who canceled treaties on NpO based on internal issues, not external ones. No alliance is responsible for the splitting of the 2 alliances other than the NPO..

[raincoat2]

Did you ever consider that the terms are so ridiculous that no one in their right mind would accept? Maybe you should do a poll on that, a more accurate question. Can't figure out who's handing the wacky weed out to Karma.

We already have polls on that(are we too harsh? and others)... and ridiculous is a rather vague weasel word so I don't know how to respond to that, but the terms have been proven completable by neutral parties in approximately 6 months.

[Haflinger]

I think its very illogical considering that Pacifica was the the one who canceled treaties on NpO based on internal issues, not external ones. No alliance is responsible for the splitting of the 2 alliances other than the NPO..

Do catch up, it's long been established here that various Continuum members, mainly Citadel members, were pressuring NPO to cancel the treaty with the Polars.

[Finnish Commie]

Call it brainwashing or loyalty but I doubt the membership will stage a coup, not to mention those are almost impossible to pull through (from what experience I've got). A coup lead by top tiers is more probable but I hardly see anything the higher echelons of NPO will gain by it either.

[Kahnite]

We already have polls on that(are we too harsh? and others)... and ridiculous is a rather vague weasel word so I don't know how to respond to that, but the terms have been proven completable by neutral parties in approximately 6 months.

The only weasel's are the ones who keep getting frustrated that NPO is taking the most logical course of action. But keep spouting the propaganda, it demonstrates just how dumb Karma is better than any of its enemies ever could.

To use your example, spouting off the BS line "but the terms have been proven completable by neutral parties in approximately 6 months", you should really revisit your elementary school math. You can't take an unknown and prescribe a value to it unless you know all the other values in the equation. Therefore you can't know what they can pay or how long it would take because the majority of their players will be at war for a minimum of two or more weeks before the reps even kick in. To reuse your term, with the weasel wording about "when the clock starts" in the terms Karma presented, this can mean that it starts a year after the first person come out of peace mode if whatever scumbag is the time keeper decides that they only have 89.9% before such time.

Don't you hate it when pesky logic gets in the way of a ridiculous argument.

Edited June 28, 2009 by Kahnite

[Rampage3]

The only weasel's are the ones who keep getting frustrated that NPO is taking the most logical course of action. But keep spouting the propaganda, it demonstrates just how dumb Karma is better than any of its enemies ever could.

To use your example, spouting off the BS line "but the terms have been proven completable by neutral parties in approximately 6 months", you should really revisit your elementary school math. You can't take an unknown and prescribe a value to it unless you know all the other values in the equation. Therefore you can't know what they can pay or how long it would take because the majority of their players will be at war for a minimum of two or more weeks before the reps even kick in. To reuse your term, with the weasel wording about "when the clock starts" in the terms Karma presented, this can mean that it starts a year after the first person come out of peace mode if whatever scumbag is the time keeper decides that they only have 89.9% before such time.

Don't you hate it when pesky logic gets in the way of a ridiculous argument.

I hope that you have more than elementary school math under your belt to look at this. If you do, you will realize hat even with an unknown variable, you can ascribe a high and low limit for said unknown based on available data and calculate a range of possibilities. I can tell you that I do that every day as a scientist and that this has been done and done and done here. The reps can be paid, no matter how you calculate the range of nations available to pay.

In addition, the argument of 89.9% is ridiculous. 10% in Peace Mode is like 70 nations in Peace Mode and if you can make 89.9%, you can make 90%. At some point the NPO has to be as steadfast and eager to attain peace as they were to attack in starting this war.

[Haflinger]

I hope that you have more than elementary school math under your belt to look at this. If you do, you will realize hat even with an unknown variable, you can ascribe a high and low limit for said unknown based on available data and calculate a range of possibilities. I can tell you that I do that every day as a scientist and that this has been done and done and done here. The reps can be paid, no matter how you calculate the range of nations available to pay.

In addition, the argument of 89.9% is ridiculous. 10% in Peace Mode is like 70 nations in Peace Mode and if you can make 89.9%, you can make 90%. At some point the NPO has to be as steadfast and eager to attain peace as they were to attack in starting this war.

Can we get back to facts?

The NPO primarily objected to the requirement that 90% of their nations above 4K infra be in war mode.

They are not close to this requirement. Currently 0 of their 66 nations above 4K infra are in war mode. That's not 89.9%.

90% of 66 is 59.4 nations, so 60 of the 4K+ nations have to move to war mode to satisfy Karma's demands.

Currently in the alliance overall they have 232 of 670 nations in peace mode, or 34.6%. If 60 of the large nations go to war mode, they will have 172 of 670 nations in peace mode, or 25.6%. In order to get to the 90-90 requirement, they would need to move another 112 sub-4K nations to war mode.

Those are the minimums.

[Bob Janova]

Citadel and SF fought against Polar, and then against NPO. Many of the same people were leadership in Coalition and Karma; the only major Coalition leader in Hegemony was chefjoe.

Since you're including Valhalla in 'Coalition', you should also include GGA and MCXA, both of whom fought for Hegemony. I think Echelon attacked Polar in that war too, and they're on your side. NV, who were attacked in that war and who defended Polar, are part of Karma. IRON, who attacked NV, are part of Hegemony. NPO fought against MK – I guess they were in on this plot too.

Really, that whole idea is just preposterous. And therefore the propaganda fed to members in order for them to believe it must be spectacular.

[Haflinger]

Since you're including Valhalla in 'Coalition', you should also include GGA and MCXA, both of whom fought for Hegemony. I think Echelon attacked Polar in that war too, and they're on your side. NV, who were attacked in that war and who defended Polar, are part of Karma. IRON, who attacked NV, are part of Hegemony. NPO fought against MK – I guess they were in on this plot too.

Really, that whole idea is just preposterous. And therefore the propaganda fed to members in order for them to believe it must be spectacular.

I don't count GGA or Echelon as either Coalition or Hegemony leadership.

The MCXA leadership in the Coalition war were all in TSO and fought for Karma.

You have a point about NPO, yes; however I should have said probly Moo, Dilber and chefjoe. NPO's position in Coalition was unusual, tho, while in this war they were clearly leadership.

[raincoat2]

The only weasel's are the ones who keep getting frustrated that NPO is taking the most logical course of action. But keep spouting the propaganda, it demonstrates just how dumb Karma is better than any of its enemies ever could.

To use your example, spouting off the BS line "but the terms have been proven completable by neutral parties in approximately 6 months", you should really revisit your elementary school math. You can't take an unknown and prescribe a value to it unless you know all the other values in the equation. Therefore you can't know what they can pay or how long it would take because the majority of their players will be at war for a minimum of two or more weeks before the reps even kick in. To reuse your term, with the weasel wording about "when the clock starts" in the terms Karma presented, this can mean that it starts a year after the first person come out of peace mode if whatever scumbag is the time keeper decides that they only have 89.9% before such time.

Don't you hate it when pesky logic gets in the way of a ridiculous argument.

Actually, I believe you are very misinformed on that point. From what lead Karma alliances have said, its a total of two weeks of war for each nation which has already been taken into account. Nations wont be at war for longer than that. The clock starts for each nation on an individual level when they enter war mode. The amount of damage they will take will be within tolerable levels to repay reps. Even after going back to ZI, most nations will have a large enough war chest to buy back to aiding status.

[Sandwich Controversy]

Since you're including Valhalla in 'Coalition', you should also include GGA and MCXA, both of whom fought for Hegemony. I think Echelon attacked Polar in that war too, and they're on your side. NV, who were attacked in that war and who defended Polar, are part of Karma. IRON, who attacked NV, are part of Hegemony. NPO fought against MK – I guess they were in on this plot too.

Really, that whole idea is just preposterous. And therefore the propaganda fed to members in order for them to believe it must be spectacular.

Echelon declared on us, not Polar.

[Matthew Conrad]

The people who believe this think that the war against the Polars was designed to weaken Pacifica's defenses by disabling their oldest and closest ally, and as a bonus break down the relationship between the Orders. It's not illogical, but you need to be a telepath to verify whether the theory is true.

That's honestly quite a stretch imo

[Bob Janova]

Echelon declared on us, not Polar.

Ok, my mistake. I knew it was someone on the Polar/Hyperion side though, which is my real point in that post.

[ChairmanHal]

Citadel and SF fought against Polar, and then against NPO. Many of the same people were leadership in Coalition and Karma; the only major Coalition leader in Hegemony was chefjoe.

The people who believe this think that the war against the Polars was designed to weaken Pacifica's defenses by disabling their oldest and closest ally, and as a bonus break down the relationship between the Orders. It's not illogical, but you need to be a telepath to verify whether the theory is true.

The beatdown of BLEU became something of "War of the Year" based on BLEU's collective "sins" over the course of several months. Yes, I know, Echelon. NPO appeared to give them an out and they took it and if you're being honest and you were leading Echelon at the time, you would have taken it too.

The "Ultimate Conspiracy Theory" calls for you to believe that there was a deep underground collection of individuals who saw The Orders as being an enemy that could never be taken down in one great war. They believed that one or the other of The Orders would have to be taken to its knees first.

Logically, that became Polaris after it left The Initiative in 2007. Of course, the next logical question would be, "who are/were these people?" and the answer to that could well be former members of LUE, NAAC, other veterans of GW I-II with an ax to grind, or even people who came upon the scene of Planet Bob later on and recognized The Orders as having a stranglehold on world affairs.

As to how they are or were functioning, we're talking about a very small number of people, some of whom may not have even been aware of the existence of each other, that worked behind the scenes influencing world events. Talking to world leaders (maybe even becoming a world leader), maintaining contacts in a number of alliances, sowing the seeds of the destruction of The Orders or at the very least their removal from the top of the food chain.

Crazy talk? Not really. I think the real question is how much credit they actually deserve...if they exist.

Let's say there were dozen or more intellectual types that believed themselves to be puppet masters involved in Planet Bob on a large scale. Were they puppet masters, or merely expressing to people words they already believed? Rather than influencing others, perhaps they were merely carried along by events that in the end they happen to find agreeable. They would therefore be a collection of Don Quixotes, not master manipulators on a grand scale.

Be that as it may, unless they come forward with extensive logs of their activities, it's highly unlikely that anyone would believe them and therefore identifying who they are/were will be impossible. More than likely, they are sitting back, having an adult beverage and smiling at their computer screen with each daily decline in NPO's stats. Maybe they'll continue to exist on Planet Bob to make sure their handiwork (if you care to give them credit) doesn't get erased or perhaps they will look for new challenges. Could also be they'll delete their nation and disappear into the night.

Logic, not tinfoil hats, prevail.

[matt01867]

No, they will just continue to slowly lose members until only the brainwashed core remains.

yup exactly

[Llednar Twem]

yup exactly

This is my response to you.

(OOC: It's a link.)

Edited July 3, 2009 by Llednar Twem

[In Tyler We Trust]

Brain washed =/= loyal or honourable

Just saying B)

[AndrewHG]

666 votes in and 69% say no.

How about a reasonable set of terms so everyone can get some sleep?

I`m fed up of the moaning and vengeful stuff in the name of the Earl Hickey.

I have been here 250 days and it sure doesn't look karmic any more.

Sorry gents.

AndrewHG

MCXA

[Sarai]

666 votes in and 69% say no.

How about a reasonable set of terms so everyone can get some sleep?

I`m fed up of the moaning and vengeful stuff in the name of the Earl Hickey.

I have been here 250 days and it sure doesn't look karmic any more.

Sorry gents.

AndrewHG

MCXA

A hard, but possible set of terms would be a challenge that NPO would relish taking up. There's no point in a set of terms designed for us to fail to start with so we remain in war rather than send 25% of the tech, fail to keep up due to the silly restrictions and get more war.

Anyway, we'll pay hard terms when they come. Also we won't revolt, those who are weak will leave to other alliances and crow they know better, (LoD), those who are sick of fighting will <OOC>delete</OOC> or leave to unaligned, this is expected. However the remainder of us will stay strong, discuss things internally, have free discussions on problems and move forward as appropriate including paying terms for many months when they become possible.

Edited July 4, 2009 by Sarai

[WarMaster Kerr]

Brain washed =/= loyal or honourable

Just saying B)

lulz. blind followers to a broken emperor.

delish.

EDIT: voted no, most of NPO's membership are way too blind/brainwashed/"patriotic" to even grasp the idea that fighting isnt the best path and that keeping their strength instead of throwing it away to make a point, will ultimately, in the long run, just make them weaker. NPO was great before the war, it may become great again, but at this point they seem only to be interested in making their comeback more of an uncertainty.

Edited July 4, 2009 by WarMaster Kerr

[Vladimir]

It is humorous to watch people mock the Order as being 'blind' or 'brainwashed', only to follow it up with a complete misunderstanding of the events that are taking place.