Will NPO's membership revolt?

[Oppe]

No, it's that they are contrary to the established opinion of everyone else on the planet, and half the time they don't even realise. (Posters like Vladimir do, they are trying to change the 'truth' to what they say, but most are not playing that game.)

For example, that Oppe guy who is in the other thread claiming that he 'didn't get the memo' that you guys have lost this war. Literally everybody outside NPO accepts that you have lost.

Edit: ah yes, and another recording of the victim card for you

And Here I have spent a good amount of time trying to find where I said that I "didn't get the memo". Oddly enough since I cannot prove something was not said can you please post a link to where I said this at all or even stated anything that would contradict what The Emperor Moo has stated publicly for all who care to look to see?

For help. First page

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=60464

We acknowledge that we have been defeated in this war. We have been humbled and we have been forced to look at ourselves in a different light. Today we walk down a different path than that of yesterday; the rescinding of the Moldavi Doctrine is but one step in that direction

Edit: silly bold tags

Edited June 19, 2009 by Oppe

[Bob Janova]

My mistake, it was USSR. You guys must have been posting at similar times and I got you confused. My apologies . The point (with your name substituted out) still holds, though.

[Essenia]

I'm sorry, I must have missed the treaty announcement where NPO and Blackstone Collusion admitted to being allies, could I get a link?

The reference is to TPF spying.

[Cuatela]

Havn't yet seen a single NPO rep come here saying they have taken sensitive information to the alliance it is about everytime whenever they have such brought to them.

Come on guys.....say it. Otherwise judging an alliance for something that you do not do yourselves is outright hypocrisy and just another reason why you guys are out of touch with the world and get attacked left and right when you show up here.

We do it all the time. Especially with allies.

But, you know...don't believe me. I'm just another Pacifican who's been brainwashed, right?

[NoFish]

We do it all the time. Especially with allies.

But, you know...don't believe me. I'm just another Pacifican who's been brainwashed, right?

Of course you do it all the time with allies. That's what the "Intelligence" clause in your treaty is about.

Hell, that clause pretty much defeats the whole argument. If it was such a crime to accept intel and not tell anyone about it, why would you need a specific clause in your treaties about sharing intel?

[raincoat2]

I am amused by those who are talking about how free and open discussion in NPO is. When I dared to suggest that NPO was partially responsible for the deterioration in relations with NpO (though I had pointed out several times, including in that post, that NpO was the main culprit; the left reason I NpO for NPO was Sponge's actions) I was mocked by an IO as well a couple other random Pacificans and received a message telling me to "go suck sponge's dick somewhere else" from someone who was senior member and a high ranked milcom official (and various other less vulgar but almost as insulting messages). NPO was only open in the sense that you could describe in great detail just how much you loved Moo and just how evil/stupid/cowardly all past, present and future enemies of NPO were.

I had the exact same feeling when I was in the NPO. Anyone who posted anything that could remotely put NPO at fault was ignored or yelled at.

[raincoat2]

So spying is a rubbish reason to go to war these days right? And its a sign of having no common sense to go to war over spying?

Well maybe someone should have mentioned this to both NSO and MK when they declared these wars over spying then:

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=53710

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=53889

Both MK and NSO had a perfectly valid reason to attack UBD and CDC. Yet when we suggested one trip to ZI for the two OV nations involved in spying, and that would be the end of it, it was unacceptable.

The problem isn't that you went to war over spying, but that you got the info that OV was spying from SPYING. In fact, I believe OV was willing to give up the nation who had spied in return for a ZI of your informant.

[raincoat2]

Why does he need to prove anything to anyone? It doesn't matter if he proves it or not and it is purely a waste of his time.

Palpatine made a valid point, and there is absolutely no reason for you to ad hominem him just because you disagree with him.

Because he made the claim that NPO has security features embedded in the image to find out who the spies are. When you make a claim, you have the obligation of backing it up with evidence, otherwise the claim has no merit(not neccessarily true or false, but simply lacking any reason to believe its true).

[neneko]

A derailment of massive proportions has happened yet again. The tough statements posed by Fushun earlier have been ignored in favor of what is percieved as easier "OMG, ANTI-SPY features", or "Blah, DOE was invalid!" type topics that have been debated to death elsewhere.

Please, if you wanted to get to know Pacifican membership you wouldn't just post and post and post in order to antagonise them. Pacificans want to engage in a non-arrogant way with the outside world, but it's damn heard when everyone derails threads back to other stuff.

Every thread on this board get derailed to the moon and back. It has nothing to do with the thread being made by a NPO member. The world doesn't revolve around you so get off your high horses.

What you are speaking of is a server side generated script which then outputs a .gif image, there is NO I repeat NO current way for any alliance to tell who took a screen shot by some magical embedded image on there board..

Exactly and as I said that pic can be made to show what member is currently viewing that pic (ie. display their member numer in most cases) and thus when the screen go public they will know who took it. You're right there's no magic involved but I didn't see you claim that it had to be magic for it to be a valid system. The information gets embeded on the separate machine that takes the screen because it's part of the image. This is a system that's being used and have caught alot of spies already.

Can I have my $50 mil in tech please? I can find a few people you can send the payments to that can send me tech.

[raincoat2]

A derailment of massive proportions has happened yet again. The tough statements posed by Fushun earlier have been ignored in favor of what is percieved as easier "OMG, ANTI-SPY features", or "Blah, DOE was invalid!" type topics that have been debated to death elsewhere.

Please, if you wanted to get to know Pacifican membership you wouldn't just post and post and post in order to antagonise them. Pacificans want to engage in a non-arrogant way with the outside world, but it's damn heard when everyone derails threads back to other stuff.

I suggested the same thing and was not shouted at or bullied. It's worrying if someone was that rude to you. When I was treated badly by someone senior I took it up the chain of command and it was sorted out. You should have tried the same but I suspect you either didn't and quit or didn't care enough at the time but now care enough to post it on the <OOC OWF> as propeganda.

The NPO knows that we did our share of things that didn't help the relationship with NpO and vice-versa. The drop in relationship was one of the saddest things for many of our members and this was discussed with frankness and openess.

Also, just so I can lay suspicious mind at rest, do you have the name of the person who told you to "suck"? Perhaps a screenshot or something?

Pre war I rarely saw this on the forums. Much of the posting consisted of "do something about it" and other antagonistic lines such as this when someone claimed they had commited a wrong action.

[Ivan Moldavi]

I know that I took sensitive information about other alliances, especially those that I would call potential "enemies", anytime it was freely offered to me. I will do it today if it suits my purposes.

So? Every alliance does this.

Oh, and the image thing is true. Again, so? Just proves that the NPO was ahead of the curve in counter-espionage technique. I would call that a compliment.

[Bilrow]

Because he made the claim that NPO has security features embedded in the image to find out who the spies are. When you make a claim, you have the obligation of backing it up with evidence, otherwise the claim has no merit(not neccessarily true or false, but simply lacking any reason to believe its true).

Incorrect. It was Blacktstone who made the claim via the logs that SethB provided to TORN. I have said from my post in regards to the question, for those who still have problems reading and comprehending, that it is doable and that I have programmed such on boards before, BUT as far as the NPO forums I have no idea what the security features are.

For reference:

The old GGA forums have them still from when I programmed them in almost two years ago. I'm not even aware of the security methods employed on our forums, but that's not really a concern since I don't give out screenshots.

Edit to poster above:

OOC: Good afternoon, Ivan. o/

Edited June 19, 2009 by Bilrow

[kingzog]

Will they revolt? No.

Will many leave once the war has ended? I believe so.

[Bob Janova]

Because he made the claim that NPO has security features embedded in the image to find out who the spies are. When you make a claim, you have the obligation of backing it up with evidence, otherwise the claim has no merit(not neccessarily true or false, but simply lacking any reason to believe its true).

It's better to leave you wondering than to confirm it and therefore let you know that the feature is actually present in that screenshot, and thereby allow you to begin cutting down on the places the security feature is. If it were my boards being subject to the same challenge I would be encouraging everyone to ignore you, and I don't expect NPO to answer you.

[Ivan Moldavi]

It's better to leave you wondering than to confirm it and therefore let you know that the feature is actually present in that screenshot, and thereby allow you to begin cutting down on the places the security feature is. If it were my boards being subject to the same challenge I would be encouraging everyone to ignore you, and I don't expect NPO to answer you.

I already did. Unless the NPO has regressed in their security protocols, which is doubtful, the image capturing technology is still around on some level.

[Delta1212]

I already did. Unless the NPO has regressed in their security protocols, which is doubtful, the image capturing technology is still around on some level.

But either confirming or denying it is in that particular screenshot accomplishes nothing but to make it easier for people who want to figure out work-arounds for it. Admitting you have security isn't really the same as giving hints as to where you can find the blueprints of your security layout. That's what Bob is getting at.

[Ivan Moldavi]

But either confirming or denying it is in that particular screenshot accomplishes nothing but to make it easier for people who want to figure out work-arounds for it. Admitting you have security isn't really the same as giving hints as to where you can find the blueprints of your security layout. That's what Bob is getting at.

Ah, I didn't actually see the screenshot. I don't usually backread a dozen pages.

But, to me, as a layman without any actual technical skill whatsoever and with no actual knowledge of where any alliance would keep such a thing, it makes sense that it would be somewhere universal that would pop up on most any screenshot.

Can you code an imprint pattern that links to an offsite server into something like the underline of a topic header?

[Ivan Moldavi]

So spying is a rubbish reason to go to war these days right? And its a sign of having no common sense to go to war over spying?

Well maybe someone should have mentioned this to both NSO and MK when they declared these wars over spying then:

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=53710

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=53889

Both MK and NSO had a perfectly valid reason to attack UBD and CDC. Yet when we suggested one trip to ZI for the two OV nations involved in spying, and that would be the end of it, it was unacceptable.

I don't believe the NSO has ever stated that it believes the NPO casus belli was insufficient.

Unfortunately the world has been held under the noose of the great lie for so long that any action against one party would inevitably draw others in.

[Delta1212]

So spying is a rubbish reason to go to war these days right? And its a sign of having no common sense to go to war over spying?

Well maybe someone should have mentioned this to both NSO and MK when they declared these wars over spying then:

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=53710

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=53889

Both MK and NSO had a perfectly valid reason to attack UBD and CDC. Yet when we suggested one trip to ZI for the two OV nations involved in spying, and that would be the end of it, it was unacceptable.

Accepting a screenshot is not the same thing as planting a spy. That's not a commentslary on the validity of the CB, only on the validity of your example.

As for what makes a valid CB. The answer is anything. Anything makes a valid CB so long as it accepted. Individuals are within their rights to accept or reject whatever criteria they see fit as to what categorizes an acceptable CB. What the majority feels is acceptable sets the standard for international norms. Right now there are plenty of people who believe that accepting a screenshot is a politically acceptable CB. At the same time, there are a great many people who distinguish between planting a spy and being sent a confidential screenshot by someone else.

Certainly, the latter is not a positive action for relations between two alliances, but every slight a CB does not necessarily make.

[Xantha]

Yes. You are a senior member and therefore you are not going to drop the NPO anyway, and you need to know what the rest of the world is thinking in order to make the internal information roughly accurate. Most of the ten or twenty recognisable faces from NPO are IO or above, and those that aren't are senior members who do not need to be 'brainwashed' (and no, I don't like that term either).

For 600 or more of the members, though, I never see them on here. I suspect that they do not even pay these boards a flying visit, and certainly will get the large majority of their information internally. This is true in most alliances, but from the misinformed posts you get from NPO members when they do hit these boards, it seems the NPO spins things more in its internal posts than most other alliances.

Sarai, it is not a 'process' that you would notice, or apply directly. It may not even be deliberate, although with expert (and deliberate) propagandists like Vladimir and Paul I suspect that it is. Some of your posts in the other thread indicate that you certainly have taken in the NPO point of view and its sense of cultural superiority, and thus the 'brainwashing' has worked well.

Most members in the NPO, like in most alliances, will be semi-active and will believe and do whatever the senior membership tells them. The senior membership and government has a heavy investment in the alliance (again like most others) and makes moves for political gain. But the NPO seems to have a much better way of getting the active but low security members to think the right way and not to question the internal story than most alliances do. This is what people exaggerate to call 'brainwashing', and I suspect is an internal version of the high quality propaganda team they have for external purposes.

Anyway, all of this is rather off topic, apart from the fact that such an internal propaganda team will make it much harder to get the membership to revolt. I don't think that even a normal alliance in NPO's position would do that anyway, though.

Just because NPO members are not on here being tools and mouthpieces does not mean they don't read this. I read it every day (though I seldom log in) and everyday pretty much turn away in disgust. I have no reason to post here. I do however have a reason to play CN and that is my Alliance. I have spent the vast majority of my time online teaching others how to play as new members. Yep I am teh big ebil, brainwashed, baby eater - get a grip. I see a lot of calls for the NPO to come and play on this here more - but why? Just to listen to the rest of you post these pompous rants? To act impressed over all the shallow posing that goes on? No Thank You. I would prefer to spend my time with my friends and helping the new ones learn the mechanics. Until the OWF has more to offer than it currently does, myself and many other Pacificans shall be content within our home.

I don't have to have an IO or anyone else interpret the utter tripe I read here, nor does any other Pacifcan. We can and do make up our own minds. Is it really that difficult to believe that this is the case? Maybe its not the way you do it but that not mean its the same way for everyone else. I don't get online to hear arguing, sniping, insults, circular reasoning... why in the hell would I do that. I do get on IRC to enjoy the time with my friends and in general have a good time. For you and others I guess that damnable - but such is my life, I enjoy it

oh and no.. there will be no revolt

Edited June 19, 2009 by Xantha

[Bob Janova]

Did you quote the wrong post? That was deliberately not a rant, or accusing you of being brainwashed and eating babies.

In fact your reply rather backs up my point, if you and many other Pacificans consider this global stage to be 'utter tripe' and therefore revert to the 'safe' NPO boards where the 'right' opinions will be most of what is circulated.

[Seti Cruncher]

You obviously don't know the NPO at all.

NPO is a Brotherhood that goes well beyond pixels, so this little war will not cause a revolt (sorry to disappoint you).

In fact, I would go as far to say that this little minor conflict you call a war, has if anything, brought us even closer together as an Alliance.

Thanks for posting the poll though, always interesting to see what others think

[raincoat2]

You obviously don't know the NPO at all.

NPO is a Brotherhood that goes well beyond pixels, so this little war will not cause a revolt (sorry to disappoint you).

In fact, I would go as far to say that this little minor conflict you call a war, has if anything, brought us even closer together as an Alliance.

Thanks for posting the poll though, always interesting to see what others think

If you read through the thread you will see most people think it WONT create any change in the alliance gov.

[King DrunkWino]

If you read through the thread you will see most people think it WONT create any change in the alliance gov.

I'd go so far as to say just look at the poll.

[Letum]

I don't know which of the people who believed the whole scripts in screenshots thing were joking along and who was serious, but it made me laugh anyway.

ooc: For those that are uninformed: there is no way anyone can embed a script in a screenshot taken by a third party. Taking a screenshot is like pointing a camera at your PC, that's why it's called a shot. The most any alliance can do with regards to screenshots is have something hidden on a webpage that would come up in the image and tell them who took it, but they would never be able to tell who saw the picture itself.