I'm baffled NPO

[joracy]

I have to say, I enjoyed this thread a lot more when it involved a fair bit of math, and fairly polite discussion about the feasibility of NPO paying the terms.

[mhawk]

I was going to wrote a huge essay when i found this, it sums up mine in a few words.

Caliph hit the nail and i fully understand NPO´s desire to try that what i still don´t get is that NPO try it via this obvious attempt of propaganda.

In other words why using math and game mechanics as excuse which can be cross checked and proofed wrong, making a big fuss in public which is backfiring now, if you just could have negotiate in private to get what you want.

I would have calculate the best and worst outcome at average, cash wise, for my peacemode nations, would have gone to Karma and offered first the best outcome as additonal reps. That would have had two big advantages, spared me the facepalm of proved wrong in public and 14extra days of war. Even if Karma wouldn´t agree to the first offer and i had to pay my worst calculated outcome, it would have been still the better option, early peace, faster rebulding.

And yes, NPO offered additonal reps in exchange but the way it was done was not the smartest move and of course Karma can calc too..

Karma stated in private negotiations there would be no further talks or changes to their original demands.

[Azaghul]

That's incorrect, actually. We told GATO very early on what they would have to do to get released after 6 months. These goals were made after discussing them with GATO leaders. The single goal they didn't meet was finishing their Charter convention. Come April, it hadn't finished after many, many months, so we decided to let them go with their old Charter to remain.

Were they told that before they accepted the terms and the viceroy? Were any of those conditions subjective at all?

[Baldr]

1. Profit? You do realize that NPO launched countless nukes, which did significant monetary damage to Karma nations, right? Nobody's profiting from this war, save maybe the innocent victims that NPO would have oppressed in the future

NPO did not nuke until after we were nuked. NPO has a "no first nuke" policy, and has for as long as I've played, at least. Even a nation which *gets* nuked has to get permission before he can nuke in return.

You're crying because we nuked back.

[Master Hakai]

Steelrat is a purdy neat guy in my opinion. Good thread.

[King DrunkWino]

NPO did not nuke until after we were nuked. NPO has a "no first nuke" policy, and has for as long as I've played, at least. Even a nation which *gets* nuked has to get permission before he can nuke in return.

You're crying because we nuked back.

Psssst- he wasn't fighting you in this war

[flak attack]

NPO did not nuke until after we were nuked. NPO has a "no first nuke" policy, and has for as long as I've played, at least. Even a nation which *gets* nuked has to get permission before he can nuke in return.

You're crying because we nuked back.

And you're crying because we attacked you after you attacked. You started this, all we did was escalate it.

[Baldr]

I'm not crying at all. I've had a blast the past two months.

[Cortath]

Were they told that before they accepted the terms and the viceroy? Were any of those conditions subjective at all?

They were told that we wouldn't leave until their alliance was functioning again.

Once we got in, we told them exactly what was necessary for their alliance to be considered "functioning," which was all fairly objective, I believe. I don't remember them all, but they included to create X number of banks, have an X percentage military check-in, create a ghost busting squad, organizing trades, organizing recruitment, building an academy, building a Tech Corps, and eventually re-opening foreign affairs on brown, and the charter convention. GATO had none of these when we got there, not necessarily because of their fault, but because of the war, war being what it is. We went in their with a sincere attempt to help them rebuild those bureaucratic structure, and at the end of 6 months, I'd say we did them all, except the Charter, which they desperately wanted.

[Azaghul]

They were told that we wouldn't leave until their alliance was functioning again.

Once we got in, we told them exactly what was necessary for their alliance to be considered "functioning," which was all fairly objective, I believe. I don't remember them all, but they included to create X number of banks, have an X percentage military check-in, create a ghost busting squad, organizing trades, organizing recruitment, building an academy, building a Tech Corps, and eventually re-opening foreign affairs on brown, and the charter convention. GATO had none of these when we got there, not necessarily because of their fault, but because of the war, war being what it is. We went in their with a sincere attempt to help them rebuild those bureaucratic structure, and at the end of 6 months, I'd say we did them all, except the Charter, which they desperately wanted.

The point is they signed terms with little in the way of concrete guarantees and it required them to trust the judgment and fairness of people that had shown a great degree of hate for them and had not long earlier told them that they had no desire to give them peace.

I'm still waiting for one of y'all to address the plan I outlined earlier btw.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Azaghul

[John Edward]

So are you saying that winning too many curbstomps is the issue? That, in essence, is what it comes down to. Yes people are whining about our "harsh" terms to those we stomped, but even if we offered "light terms" i guarantee that this would still be going on. Even though the unofficial DOW and the reasons behind the near impossible peace terms is NPO's "harsh" terms of past, we would still be at war as the hate for the NPO, which is driving this war, is not from the past terms handed out but because they were flat out curbstomped, and have been stomped for the past 3 years (i say 3 years as, for this argument, i will bow to KARMA's view the NPO lost the GPW for the sake of lake of argument over it). So you are basically saying, Jaxon, that we should start loosing more, on purpose at that given past history. I don't think this is viable.

FYP - I think the point you seem oblivious to is that you not only curbstomped multiple alliances, you took their sovereignty and forced multiple players out of the game.

If you are going to quote what i say please quote it word for word and do not alter it as you did in your post. I do not mind your arguments against what i said, but please address them in your own words instead of changing the words i said. "Curbstomp" is not a word I use, and will never use. I ask that from now on you please only quote people when you are willing to quote their exact words with out altering them. Thank you for understanding this.

[uaciaut]

snip

Pretty nicely written post there, i'll just add one mention. As much as NPO based it's strength on apparent force (your fault, not your opposition's) people will be using the same mentality (only in reverse :V ) when giving you terms. So even if you had a lot of apparent strength you still used it properly and it kept you on the #1 spot and people want you removed from the sanction. You can't just say "we have many inactives, let them keep their cash and tech" when most of the inactives ammount to a pretty hefty total of NS - possibly enough to keep you in sanction. Basically you can't have your cake and it eat it too.

Anyway Aza's math seems pretty good as far as i've seen, maybe with the activity issues you can just add a month to the timeframe in which you can pay them and you should manage to pay them.

Edited June 15, 2009 by uaciaut

[Captain Flinders]

The NPO doesn't need your pity or your suggestions. They have the "best banking system in CN". They just don't want to use it right now because you're all watching. But man, it's the best.

[Tulafaras]

Karma stated in private negotiations there would be no further talks or changes to their original demands.

wrong. They stated that there were enough concessions made to the NPO. That does not mean that they would not hear counteroffers and discuss them among themselves.

The NPO response was a rather insulting counteroffer which removed two key aspects of the terms for 1bill more money.

[JCFalkenberg]

Nukes are responsible for 80% of this damage. And we are talking about 14 nukes, 1 per day. That is the figure used in all calculations presented to you. If someone claimed otherwise, they probably made a mistake due to temporary confusion.

Assuming your opponents stagger, the most nukes you can eat in 14 days is 13, if your opponents are lazy, stupid or both, and don't, 12. 24 hours (rounded up to the nearest hour) nuke immunity and all that.

[Echoic]

I wonder how many of those banks would leave NPO if they were ordered to take 14 days of nukes and attacks. That would be grim enough for trained fighters.

[Henkie]

And you're crying because we attacked you after you attacked. You started this, all we did was escalate it.

Only if you see a connection between the war we started and the one your side escalated. But since Karma clearly pointed out that the war never was about protecting that one alliance, which ever it was, but about all kinds of selfrightious things, and apparently setting a bad example to you all, it was merely an excuse and it's quite absurd to consider the NPO the aggressors.

[Haflinger]

Assuming your opponents stagger, the most nukes you can eat in 14 days is 13, if your opponents are lazy, stupid or both, and don't, 12. 24 hours (rounded up to the nearest hour) nuke immunity and all that.

Cortath's figures assume 13 nukes, actually. You should read them.

[Seerow]

Cortath's figures assume 13 nukes, actually. You should read them.

Cortath's might, but Letum's assume 14. The number he provides (1120) is 14*80. Which means he is assuming 14 nukes doing an average of 80 damage across the board.

[Haflinger]

Cortath's might, but Letum's assume 14. The number he provides (1120) is 14*80. Which means he is assuming 14 nukes doing an average of 80 damage across the board.

Yeah, I've been basically not really paying too much attention to everyone but Cortath. His figures make sense; everyone else seems to be guessing about something or screwing something up.

Also he goes into way more detail.

And, also, his figures are the ones that Moo used. So anyone else from NPO's figures is obviously not so relevant.

[Electron Sponge]

and of course

http://lycaeum.assimilator.org/

The Lycaeum board is offline, has been since Vox disbanded. It's awaiting deletion whenever I get around to caring enough to actually do it. I don't mind you linking to it, but it's just about as close to a dead link as you can get without it actually being dead.

It's nice to see that even math can be argued to death.

[Denial]

Only if you see a connection between the war we started and the one your side escalated. But since Karma clearly pointed out that the war never was about protecting that one alliance, which ever it was, but about all kinds of selfrightious things, and apparently setting a bad example to you all, it was merely an excuse and it's quite absurd to consider the NPO the aggressors.

You know, I thought about writing a more detailed reply to this post, but I think pointing out the fact that within your short post, you managed to first admit that Pacifica initiated the war and then claim that Pacifica could not be considered the aggressors, will be sufficient in proving that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

[Henkie]

You know, I thought about writing a more detailed reply to this post, but I think pointing out the fact that within your short post, you managed to first admit that Pacifica initiated the war and then claim that Pacifica could not be considered the aggressors, will be sufficient in proving that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

We didn't start this war. We started a small war against a small alliance that had been spying. The current war has nothing to do with that war, except that it was used as an excuse to get revenge for any number of supposed slights.

[Teriethien]

We didn't start this war. We started a small war against a small alliance that had been spying. The current war has nothing to do with that war, except that it was used as an excuse to get revenge for any number of supposed slights.

Repeating the party line doesn't make it true.

[Delta1212]

We didn't start this war. We started a small war against a small alliance that had been spying. The current war has nothing to do with that war, except that it was used as an excuse to get revenge for any number of supposed slights.

SF, VE, Sparta and C&G would have been defending OV whether we had back up or not. I know this because it looked like our back up was going to pull out at the last minute and we decided to go in anyway. You're wrong.

Of course, I don't expect you to believe a word I tell you because it's easier to lose if it's to someone who attacked you rather than someone you attacked, but that really doesn't change the facts. The world isn't nice like that.