Imperial Decree from the New Pacific Order

[kevin32891]

This whole thing seems a little whiny and crybaby-ish.

I personally think you deserved harsher terms.

Yes because if it were you given these terms you would be

"Oh thanks guys for the fair and justified terms" :hugs:

[kingzog]

The past is the past?!?! Isn't that what this war and these 70 pages of trolling are all about, the NPOs past transgressions?

No, it's about your crying and whining about terms that were offered; terms which, as you have heard repeatedly in this thread, will not change.

[D34th]

So,

1- NPO is ebil and gave so many times harsh reps to be paid.

2- Karma isn't as bad as NPO because they have the right to seek for revenge.

3- Karma gives harsh terms to NPO, in fact harsh terms even worse than NPO gave to any alliance in Karma side and even worse than some some ex-Hegemony alliances who are know in Karma side used to give.

So using an analogy, if NPO killed Karma's father, Karma has the right to kill all NPO family.

After all I'm happy to prove my point when I said that would happen when war begun and was told for so many Karma members and leaders that wouldn't. What people fail in understand is that they beloved Karma concept is a circle and what comes around goes around not just one time, but forever until someone stop the cycle. Bad actions do not justify more bad actions. Today you are in the winning side, but what about tomorrow?

Coke or Pepsi aynone?

Ps: I'm not an NPO defender and not advocating that they do not deserve what they got, so please don't start to yell to me "THEY ARE EBIL, THEY GAVE US HARSH TERMS, THEY DESERVE THAT" because I know what they did and see you whinning about that even while you are winning is just funny. My problem is just that hypocrisy make me sick.

[Kenix700]

Yes because if it were you given these terms you would be

"Oh thanks guys for the fair and justified terms" :hugs:

Oh cause all the terms NPO has given have been so fair.

You've had it coming.

[kevin32891]

Hell freezing over is not something you should dismiss this lightly

No, you didn't attack them and I never said you did. I'm not talking about the reps either, though by sitting victors' side at the negotiation tables you clearly were just as guilty. Still, this is not exactly relevant to this thread so I'll shut up now [ooc]time to sleep[/ooc].

Yes because several of those alliances that were at war with Polaris are on your side,

but hey! They saw the light right before the war started and declared on us so they're clear.

[Kristospherein]

Yes because if it were you given these terms you would be

"Oh thanks guys for the fair and justified terms" :hugs:

Hey thanks guys for these fair and reasonable terms. The past month of war has been great and I look forward to paying reps for the next decade. Kristospherein hugs all of Karma collectively.

[Teriethien]

Yes because if it were you given these terms you would be

"Oh thanks guys for the fair and justified terms" :hugs:

The irony in this post is astounding.

[kevin32891]

Oh cause all the terms NPO has given have been so fair.

You've had it coming.

That's not was I'm saying. I'm saying that you are calling us cry babies when if you got these

terms as well you would cry just as much.

[kingzog]

Hey thanks guys for these fair and reasonable terms. The past month of war has been great and I look forward to paying reps for the next decade. Kristospherein hugs all of Karma collectively.

Was that so hard?

[King Death II]

Ok then Mr. D34TH, What do you propose we do? Are we supposed to say, "oh hey you guys are bad, please stop it but we arent gonna stop you because we want to be nice and we want to make everyone happy! :D " Just to watch NPO keep doing what they did, killing alliances, shoving their will on others, stopping people from playing the game? Is that what you want? A criminal to be loose on the streets just so we can be "nice"?

[Cortath]

It's only impossible if you do not talk to the Karma alliances involved. Knowing some of the folks there, I'm fairly certain that they would work with you.

NPO has over 700 members for crying out loud. These terms are not harsh on you. You will regrow pretty fast without the bank nations aiding you. Your members have large enough warchests to get LOTS of members over 4000 infra so they could send the reps with you. These terms are Very easy for you. It will take over half a year to pay off but your small nations will grow nevertheless.

Stop whining. We have paid reps in the past and we didn't whine. We were a 3 times smaller alliance and paid more per a nation than you. You are just not admitting you lost the war. Learn to lose some day.

Also, you have collected a lot more reps in the past, which means you still have that money and tech on your nations.

I think this video comes in handy again...

NPO asking for a better war system / NPO asking for better reps.

Different topic, same tactic. This time you won't win.

Giving NPO light terms: GW1 shows that's a bad bad idea, plus they can retract apologies in previous surrender agreements!

NPO has no $$$: Unfortunately the game has spy ops now, so NPO warchests are pretty much an open secret

Reps not payable: Math done by others already in this thread, also NPO made its' own decision not get come out of hippy mode couple of weeks back, could have shortened the war and losses

Attacked by NPO after disarming for peace terms: FAN

Unending war carried out by NPO: FAN

Disbanded due to NPO: NAAC, LUE, GOONS, Genmay etc

Nations E/PZIed by NPO: Multiple first person accounts

High reps demanded by NPO: Multiple quotes in the thread so far

Bank nations forced out of peace mode by NPO: GATO

I think the above covers just about every possible outcome of the war, whichever scenario plays out, Karma certainly got NPO real good.

Once you have paid enough reps to be below 100 tech, then tech will be cheap for you again.

(Some OOC follows:) No offence, but your argument is pretty stupid. You say inactivity is a problem as a result of which you couldn't bring nations out of peace mode, even after a week...I call shenanigans. You just mass PM everyone to stop being a hippy. It takes 5 seconds to leave war mode - exams or no exams, children or no children - FIVE SECONDS. No longer than collecting taxes - which is necessary every 20 days in order to not get your nation deleted anyway. Just give them more time, anyone who doesn't comply with orders is clearly not worthy to be in your alliance, but none of this "inactivity" crap - you aren't fooling anyone.

And really, you are the last alliance to talk about honour and claim you are incapable of doing something dishonourable. Sorry, but nobody changes overnight like that, you are just full of crap.

And the reason these are the most severe terms is simple and legitimate. You were before the war the biggest by far alliance for a very long time. You still have the most members of any alliance, and hence the most capability to pay off a lot of reps. You have over 250 nations in peace mode - your so called banks. Spy ops have shown they have extremely large amounts of money - which wouldn't even come close to being exhausted in 2 weeks of additional fighting. Plus, they have been saving up even more all this time. All this on top of the fact that you deserve anything and everything anyone can possibly dream of.

You should be happy that you were given such acceptable terms - which are, relative to the size of alliances and periods in CN and matching funds available on average, very lenient. You have significant capability to pay these reps and rebuild quickly after the war. You're even still in the top 12.

Swallow your ill-founded pride and get over it. You aren't fooling anyone.

You seem to complete ignore the numerous threads and posts, and in fact DOW's that the NPO has done in the past because the alliance is held responsible for the crimes of their leaders. The NPO has gone to war numerous times for that exact "crime". It has even been expanded to include "the alliance is responsible for any one of their members actions".

In fact the NPO started this war on the misguided belief that OV spied on them, and thus warred with that alliance based on the behavior of one member.

Quite frankly, your attempts at trying to gloss over GW1 and lay the entire blame at Ivan Moldavi's feet, when in fact the NPO, Hegemony, and IRON, have all agreed that the crimes of a government are the entire alliances to bear by numerous wars in the past.

I do find it funny how you are trying to help NPO with this PR campaign they are using. It is too early for it to work though, and you guys are trying a little too hard. Give it a few more weeks, display more "unjust" terms and then blitz the forums, when more noobies have come up and are ignorant to the crimes that NPO has performed.

I have no sympathy towards the NPO regarding these terms. The NPO has held others to similar, equivelant or harsher terms in the past. I see no reason. The NPO was told of the peace term modifier that is directly related to how many nations they keep in peace mode.

And it has been irrefutably proven that the NPO has the financial resources to pay these reps.

This is nothing more than an orchastrated PR campaign to generate hate and unrest towards those alliances fighting the NPO. I find it hilarious that some of you are calling for white peace or lenient terms for the NPO.

We have seen what NPO does when it gets white peace (yes, another GW1 reference here).

None of the math, including NPOs has been correct.

There are plenty of screen shots of those offending. FAN chose to defend those that were not complying to peace terms.

FAN said that they would only accept white peace. NPO (and friends, I should add), didn't give them white peace, does that make them the bad guys? Shall I point you towards the original post of this thread?

You can't exactly force an alliance to disband, but I do see your point.

No perma-ZIs have been proved (yet, I should add). With the exception of Johnathan Brodbank (spelling error?), but he rerolled under the same name...

I do not ever recall the reps by NPO having to be paid for by nations over a certain size limit.

Agreed; GATOs nations may not have necessarily been banks, but again I see what you mean.

And vice versa, it was not too long ago when reps were representative of the damage caused by the losing alliance. So by this amount of reps, one could guess that NPO dealt a lot of damage on their way down.

Ivan Moldavi commited most of these "crimes" that NPO is currently being blamed for. He is on Karma's side now, leader of one of the Karma alliances, if you take the loose definition of Karma as the alliances that declared on NPO and its allies.

The the various posts above, certain claims are made regarding the realistic nature of these terms, as well as the military damage the NPO could expect to take in 14+ days of war.

I'd like to direct all the posters to my post here, and ask them to discuss numbers.

Thank you for your time.

[kevin32891]

Was that so hard?

Yeah well I like the old Nordreich.

[Kristospherein]

Oh cause all the terms NPO has given have been so fair.

You've had it coming.

Right, we haven't heard that one before. It's only the reason the coalition we are fighting is called Karma...even though it is full of alliances like ,say, Sparta or Rok that were once allied to us and fought alongside us and agreed fully upon these "transgressions" we have coming to us. That's not calling for the Karma train to come and steamroll them at a later date. Not one bit.

[Vilien]

Because to let them continue killing unopposed is entirely irresponsible.

[Haflinger]

You know Zog, you've shown remarkable restraint in this topic and in all the others regarding the NPO and the war, considering what they did to you and NoV. I salute you for that. So many people could learn from you.

The NPO did not take part in the war against Norden Verein.

ooohhh dont you dare go there, dont YOU DARE! I was a proud loyal member until your "fearless" leader kicked me out because of a BS reason. I never left on my own accord, you guys got rid of me. I had done thing wrong except support Ivan and Anthony when it was unpopular. You dont know what it means to be a Pacifican. Also the past is past.

And you've never been kicked out of any other alliances?

lol, KD.

I wish people who aren't in Polaris or GATO or Legion would stop using them as examples of Pacifican tyranny. Most of the Karma alliances in the Polar war last summer were on the Coalition side, and GATO and Legion have both asked for them to not be used for Karma propaganda.

The C&G alliances have a legit beef; most of the rest of you don't.

[lebubu]

The past month of war has been great and I look forward to paying reps for the next decade.

Maybe you should tell your Emperor to think twice before declaring war during negotiations.

[Kristospherein]

Was that so hard?

Yes actually. I'm all slimy and gross now.

[Cortath]

The terms are easily paid, stop with the useless attempts to gain PR. It really just makes you look pathetic.

As we tried very patiently to explain to NPO government, it is not possible to nuke a nation more than once a day.

Can anyone here actually provide convincing math for this?

Working on it.

In terms of percentages (tech on hand to tech required in reps) there have been MK, Polaris, Athens, and a few others that have had similar, or worse, terms.

Come off this high horse, it does not suit you. You have no moral high ground here.

This is incorrect. At the time of offering these terms, there were 181 nations which were eligible to pay the 300k in tech reparations. This eligibility would have remained even after they sent tech out till 0, and they could have rebought from 0 and continued sending if they desired.

Londo stop destroying the "the terms cannot be paid!!!!!!!" argument, please.

Also for those who care:

181 nations, assuming it takes 3 weeks to rebuild to a reasonable amount of infra.

15M/250 tech being sent out per nation (assuming no DRAs even though most probably have it).

That amounts to 2.7B/45k tech per cycle that can be paid out. HARDLY undoable. The cash part could be paid off quickly, or, put off towards the end to "further rebuilding."

Stop trying to tell me these terms are undoable.

I would similarly and again like to direct all the posters to my post here, and ask them to discuss numbers.

Thank you for your time.

[Kenix700]

That's not was I'm saying. I'm saying that you are calling us cry babies when if you got these

terms as well you would cry just as much.

All im saying is I have never seen an alliance cry so hard about being "wronged" ever. I'v been in an alliance that had to take some really really harsh terms from you guys. We really didnt cry that much.

[Cortath]

The terms explicitly state the amount can be evaluated if it's unpayable.

Uh, the only thing I'm possibly seeing there is harsh reps and forcing nations out of peace mode. And that's only been for the original instigator, all of NPO's allies have gotten off with relatively light terms.

The difference is if NPO is legitimately not able to comply, the terms will be scaled.

If NPO is incompatant, or tries to instigate campaigns and fake numbers to try to make it seem as if they are "incompatant", the terms will not be scaled. We will not tolerate NPO's games, they will adhere to our terms, they could have done it a month ago, they refuse. They could have done it yesterday, they refuse. That is already 2 chances, and 2 rejections of peace terms.

The terms to end this war will be dictated by us, not by NPO or NPO games. If NPO lacks the capability legitimately, I fully suspect that unlike their treatment of FAN, that NPO would be treated fairly. Or much fairer than can be reasonable accepted give their treatment of FAN, their backstabbings of allies like GOONS and \m/, and other incidents.

After reviewing the situation more closely, especially since a couple of people, including Cortath, have argued that you can be nuked thrice in one day and thus convinced me, I've determined that...

This thread really needed less poor understanding of war mechanics, bad math, attempts to deflect blame, and double talk ... and more "Let's give it the old college try and see if we can't get 90% of our nations into war mode by the end of next week so we can accept the lenient terms we were given and end this war so we can begin the process of showing Planet Bob that we realize we were terrible sports for years and want to make amends through our actions going forward."

/You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one ...

Quite a few of them do. And even if they don't, it's not Karma's fault that you didn't have your alliance prepare properly for war before starting one. As someone said, your nations are not the only ones to lose significant amounts of infra; many Grämlins have rebuilt thousands of infrastructure, as have many in IRON. Matt Miller rebuilt 15,000 infra after fighting for a month. Don't claim that two weeks will completely destroy a nation, unless the NPO is a special brand of weak.

No longer can you claim that terms have not been offered. The terms are harsh, but not without reason, unlike many of those issued in the past by the Hegemony. NPO has shown in the past that it will take mercy and spit it right back in the face of those that offered it, so you're not going to get it again. Yes, the purpose of the terms is to reduce the scale of your upper tier threat, much of which you have been hiding throughout the war, and which is still larger than many alliances – particularly for those Karma alliances which have also been fighting and had their upper tier destroyed. NPO still has a stronger top 25 than Ragnarok or VE, never mind OV.

Edit: Also, discussing peace terms in public doesn't usually end well. I think Pacifica explicitly added time to the war for doing so, though I'm not sure about that.

Finally, a good move on Moldavi and Revenge. It is a shame that it required you to humble yourselves in war to drop your military occupation of Red, which has long been anachronistic, but I am glad you have acknowledged that reality now. I wish you the best of luck with a successful and friendly free Red. It will be interesting to see how other alliances approach Revenge, and whether similar initiatives can be developed in other colours now that there is no oppressive Hegemony to destroy them.

Terms may be harsh, dont see how they're unpayable though.

Alos people crying hypocrisy and 'you're as bad as us/them' need to stop, seriously. That party line might have worked a little better if you hadn't overused it a couple of hours after the war began before anyone even surrendered.

'Including the land' is a pretty transparent ploy to make the number bigger, who buys land anyway?

It only costs $200m to get from 0 to 4999 infra, anyway. At that point you net around $5m a day and can therefore easily pay off reps.

(e: can't type )

E: Tojamn, it's true, a few of your nations enjoying their break at the Peace Mode Resort are sitting on around $2bn. Kind of sucks that they won't fight to help out ordinary guys like you, huh?

Oh for christ's sake...

To NPO: Jesus, be glad they didn't take ALL of your !@#$@#$ tech. Go ahead and think back to a little alliance called Athens that surrendered during the NoCB war.

In sheer size, yes, this is the largest amount of reps ever proposed for war. NPO is also a massive alliance that has commited more wrongs than any alliance ever in the history of CN. (A)

However proportionally, worse reps have been offered.

How big was GPA after they got beaten down for a terrible CB and then forced to pay massive terms?

How big was MK when they joined a war to defend their allies and after surrendering had to pay terribly large tech reps?

God people, yeah the terms are !@#$@#$ huge. But guess what? When you destroy alliances (B) and drive many people not just to ZI, not just to reroll, but from the !@#$@#$ game, then you deserve whatever is coming to you and in full force......

A: I don't care whether you argue with the point that NPO has commited worse acts than any alliance in cyberverse, it isn't the thread is about, and I won't respond.

B: I don't care whether you argue with the logic of "OMGUKANTDESTOYALLINSEZ!", for obvious reasons.

The terms, while certainly high, are acceptable to my eyes. It has been said before, but I'll say it again - proportionally, NPO has forced tougher terms on alliances before now. But no matter what you may say about Karma as a whole or that we are hypocritical and becoming the thing we are fighting, at least we can say that we do not wish the destruction of the NPO.

We all know how the NPO has operated in the past in that regard, don't we?

I thought the terms were very generous. So generous if fact that NPO really should accept them. NPO, you have held alot of people down in this game. You have caused people to quit playing, you have torn apart whole alliances. You have forced alot of alliances to disband.

If it were left up to me, you guys would be treated the same way you treated FAN for the past 2 years. And if that werent enough, I would treat you the same way you treated NAAC and force you to disband. BUt my reasons wouldnt be out of greed or for political purposes. My reasons would be to teach you the lesson of karma. You go around around spreading bad ju-ju and now your upset that the peace terms arent to your liking. Deal with it. Suck it up.

Karma, your terms for NPO are very light in my eyes.

I would like to reiterate to the above posts to my post here, and ask them to discuss numbers.

Thank you for your time.

[Kristospherein]

Because to let them continue killing unopposed is entirely irresponsible.

Right but to try and take the moral high ground in doing so? That's irresponsible.

[King Death II]

Look, you guys did wrong, you are the criminals. We are the popo and we are sending you to jail for a very very long time. Can we stop this now? /thread

fakeedit: in hindsight, a better name for the coalition would have been Justice or Cops or something like that :/

[oinkoink12]

just disband and reform Newer Pacific Order.

Be done with it Rediculous terms.

[Kristospherein]

Look, you guys did wrong, you are the criminals. We are the popo and we are sending you to jail for a very very long time. Can we stop this now? /thread

fakeedit: in hindsight, a better name for the coalition would have been Justice or Cops or something like that :/

But that's not the name of the coalition and that's not the moral stance the coalition is generally taking.

[Kristospherein]

just disband and reform Newer Pacific Order.

Be done with it Rediculous terms.

But then someone would go and form the Newest Pacific Order and we'd be ruined.