Imperial Decree from the New Pacific Order

[Gork]

Proportionality, fine! NPO shall disband... 9 times, and their members will join Karma Viceroyalty indefinitely.

[NEWBert]

Or is your goal simply to make it years before NPO can ever dream of playing Cybernations again?

fixed

[Bob]

So since you've added it to the conversation, what exactly is the price of reps for making an alliance disband? Can you set a dollar figure on that? Or is your goal simply to make it years before NPO can ever dream of being sanctioned again? At least admit it if it is.

There isn't one. They deserve to be disbanded for it, however none of Karma is willing to do that, because we understand that destroying an alliance is the worst thing you can do, because you rip apart its members and destroy its culture :/. So these reps are what we get instead.

And yes, the goal is to hurt NPO. I think that was quite obvious and has been stated many times.

[Blacky]

This without exception the most hilarious thing I have seen in the last few weeks. There's hardly anybody on that list yet? xD Only some of them had year long viceroys imposed on them or ended up disbanding due to the pressure caused by war.

NPO are the good guys!

Karma is evil!

That is ridiculous.

[Raider]

The Vindictive Coalition desires our complete subjugation and destruction, yet is by and large too cowardly to say so out loud, thus the arguments about 'proportionality' and 'justice', when in fact the mathematics involved usually revolve around "how can we do as much PERMANENT damage as possible?"

If that was true we wouldn't have bothered to offer terms.

[Starcraftmazter]

Theres all sorts of posts about how NPO deserves such harsh terms to be in line with all the evil things we've done.

So heres a list of all those evil terms we've done in those evil wars we viciously started.

See the problems with this list are numerous.

1. Not adjusted for inflation.

2. Does not include non-rep terms.

3. Does not include terms presented to alliances which disbanded because of their inability to accept those terms.

4. Does not list terms which NPO had an instrumental part in forming, but did not specifically hand down themselves.

Now allow me to educate you on what REAL terms for NPO would look like.

1. Payment of 100% of the total technology possessed by the New Pacific Order AA at day 1 of the war. Every single payment of 50 tech must come with 3mill.
   
2. Repayment of 100% of the reps to every single alliance which still exists, which was ever handed down reps by NPO, adjusted for inflation.
   
3. Decommissioning of every single military unit, and soldiers down to 20%
   
4. Decommissioning of every single wonder (which is possible to decommission), all military improvements plus factories.
   
5. No military wonders for a period of 1 years
   
6. Complete removal of all NPO government,
   
7. No NPO nation gets peace until they are on the grey team
   
8. NPO as an alliance must move to the pink team permanently. Members can only switch after they have been on grey for a month.
   
9. Complete re-write of the NPO constitution by Karma, including:
   
   • Permanent restriction on foreign affairs policy
     
   • Permanent restriction on the type of CB allowed for war ("spying" is not a real CB, nobody is interested in your BS).
     
   • Permanent transparency of government policy to members
     
   • Permanent restrictions on the number of each type of treaty you are allowed to hold
     

[*] One-way NAPs with every single Karma alliance for a period of 2 years.

[*] No treaties or wars for a period of 1 year.

[*] No external aid for a period of 1 year.

[*] Only allowed to sell tech to the alliances NPO is currently at war with for a period of 1 year.

[*] Must apologise for every single war they have ever been in.

[*] Specifically apologise for instituting smear campaigns against the alliances for which this is true.

[*] If at any time any of these rules are broken, all of NPO's present enemies plus all willing alliances will ZI every NPO nation and the duration of terms would be reset.

NPO should be worshipping the alliances at war with them for being so generous. NPO has no clue how lucky it is that they have decided to be merciful and impose lenient terms compared to the harshness of terms NPO has historically given (LUE, NAAC, LoSS, GATO, Legion, MK, etc).

[Ogaden]

If that was true we wouldn't have bothered to offer terms.

I'm pretty sure you never intended to ever offer terms, but as we all know, something has 'come up' as it where.

[bbrownso]

So since you've added it to the conversation, what exactly is the price of reps for making an alliance disband? Can you set a dollar figure on that? Or is your goal simply to make it years before NPO can ever dream of being sanctioned again? At least admit it if it is.

can the world at large make up its mind? do reps cause alliances to disband or not? either accept ES's view that the alliances chose to disband or start apportioning blame at everyone who played a part in alliances disbanding; including the alliance that disbanded where applicable. Is no one honest enough to realize and acknowledge that some of these alliances did things that got them rolled or are we so beholden that we won't speak bad of the dead?

[Captain Flinders]

I'm pretty sure you never intended to ever offer terms, but as we all know, something has 'come up' as it where.

Terms were offered on the first day...

[Bob]

I'm pretty sure you never intended to ever offer terms, but as we all know, something has 'come up' as it where.

Do you have any source for this information, or do you just enjoy making false accusations?

[Nintenderek]

See the problems with this list are numerous.

1. Not adjusted for inflation.

2. Does not include non-rep terms.

3. Does not include terms presented to alliances which disbanded because of their inability to accept those terms.

4. Does not list terms which NPO had an instrumental part in forming, but did not specifically hand down themselves.

Now allow me to educate you on what REAL terms for NPO would look like.

1. Payment of 100% of the total technology possessed by the New Pacific Order AA at day 1 of the war. Every single payment of 50 tech must come with 3mill.
   
2. Repayment of 100% of the reps to every single alliance which still exists, which was ever handed down reps by NPO, adjusted for inflation.
   
3. Decommissioning of every single military unit, and soldiers down to 20%
   
4. Decommissioning of every single wonder (which is possible to decommission), all military improvements plus factories.
   
5. No military wonders for a period of 1 years
   
6. Complete removal of all NPO government,
   
7. No NPO nation gets peace until they are on the grey team
   
8. NPO as an alliance must move to the pink team permanently. Members can only switch after they have been on grey for a month.
   
9. Complete re-write of the NPO constitution by Karma, including:
   
   • Permanent restriction on foreign affairs policy
     
   • Permanent restriction on the type of CB allowed for war ("spying" is not a real CB, nobody is interested in your BS).
     
   • Permanent transparency of government policy to members
     
   • Permanent restrictions on the number of each type of treaty you are allowed to hold
     

[*] One-way NAPs with every single Karma alliance for a period of 2 years.

[*] No treaties or wars for a period of 1 year.

[*] No external aid for a period of 1 year.

[*] Only allowed to sell tech to the alliances NPO is currently at war with for a period of 1 year.

[*] Must apologise for every single war they have ever been in.

[*] Specifically apologise for instituting smear campaigns against the alliances for which this is true.

[*] If at any time any of these rules are broken, all of NPO's present enemies plus all willing alliances will ZI every NPO nation and the duration of terms would be reset.

NPO should be worshipping the alliances at war with them for being so generous. NPO has no clue how lucky it is that they have decided to be merciful and impose lenient terms compared to the harshness of terms NPO has historically given (LUE, NAAC, LoSS, GATO, Legion, MK, etc).

You know, forget what I said earlier about how Penchuck should do the terms, I think you would do a much better job.

[Ogaden]

Terms were offered on the first day...

Ah yes, the initial terms, how could I forget.

Edited June 15, 2009 by James Dahl

[bbrownso]

See the problems with this list are numerous.

1. Not adjusted for inflation.

2. Does not include non-rep terms.

3. Does not include terms presented to alliances which disbanded because of their inability to accept those terms.

4. Does not list terms which NPO had an instrumental part in forming, but did not specifically hand down themselves.

Now allow me to educate you on what REAL terms for NPO would look like.

1. Payment of 100% of the total technology possessed by the New Pacific Order AA at day 1 of the war. Every single payment of 50 tech must come with 3mill.
   
2. Repayment of 100% of the reps to every single alliance which still exists, which was ever handed down reps by NPO, adjusted for inflation.
   
3. Decommissioning of every single military unit, and soldiers down to 20%
   
4. Decommissioning of every single wonder (which is possible to decommission), all military improvements plus factories.
   
5. No military wonders for a period of 1 years
   
6. Complete removal of all NPO government,
   
7. No NPO nation gets peace until they are on the grey team
   
8. NPO as an alliance must move to the pink team permanently. Members can only switch after they have been on grey for a month.
   
9. Complete re-write of the NPO constitution by Karma, including:
   
   • Permanent restriction on foreign affairs policy
     
   • Permanent restriction on the type of CB allowed for war ("spying" is not a real CB, nobody is interested in your BS).
     
   • Permanent transparency of government policy to members
     
   • Permanent restrictions on the number of each type of treaty you are allowed to hold
     

[*] One-way NAPs with every single Karma alliance for a period of 2 years.

[*] No treaties or wars for a period of 1 year.

[*] No external aid for a period of 1 year.

[*] Only allowed to sell tech to the alliances NPO is currently at war with for a period of 1 year.

[*] Must apologise for every single war they have ever been in.

[*] Specifically apologise for instituting smear campaigns against the alliances for which this is true.

[*] If at any time any of these rules are broken, all of NPO's present enemies plus all willing alliances will ZI every NPO nation and the duration of terms would be reset.

NPO should be worshipping the alliances at war with them for being so generous. NPO has no clue how lucky it is that they have decided to be merciful and impose lenient terms compared to the harshness of terms NPO has historically given (LUE, NAAC, LoSS, GATO, Legion, MK, etc).

At least I know that you're a sad person who can't let go of his old grudges. You actually earned a spot on my rogue list when I leave the game if you're still here. I gotta give you some props though; at least, you don't hide your true feelings behind a sanctimonious mask of self-righteousness like most everyone else.

[Vol Navy]

Once again I see terms edited into that list that were imposed by others and not Pacifica.

Was it not Sponge who claims he is the one who forced the disbandments after UJW? Yet now Sponge is one of Karma's greatest heroes and NPO gets blamed for his actions.

Just like people earlier have blamed NPO for the past actions of Sparta, RoK, and many other hegemonic alliances that dished out harsh reps/terms in the past.

You can't just take the results of every war ever waged and say NPO was at fault.

Well, you can, but it's nonsensical.

But anyway, gotta do something to kill the boogeyman. He might come back for us someday. And honestly, after this display, all of you involved in this set of terms will deserve anything you ever get in the future.

:::grammer edit:::

Edited June 15, 2009 by Vol Navy

[Andre27]

That must be the biggest load of rubbish i've seen posted in quite some time.

White peace FTW

[TypoNinja]

Sidenote: I get tired of people telling me what I saw as though if they say it long enough, I'll be convinced that there are 3 lights instead of 4. Enough.

I hate to nit pick, but there are 4 lights and in an attempt to break him, his torturer was trying to get him to admit that there were five. Yes I'm that big a nerd.

[Ogaden]

See the problems with this list are numerous.

1. Not adjusted for inflation.

2. Does not include non-rep terms.

3. Does not include terms presented to alliances which disbanded because of their inability to accept those terms.

4. Does not list terms which NPO had an instrumental part in forming, but did not specifically hand down themselves.

Now allow me to educate you on what REAL terms for NPO would look like.

1. Payment of 100% of the total technology possessed by the New Pacific Order AA at day 1 of the war. Every single payment of 50 tech must come with 3mill.
   
2. Repayment of 100% of the reps to every single alliance which still exists, which was ever handed down reps by NPO, adjusted for inflation.
   
3. Decommissioning of every single military unit, and soldiers down to 20%
   
4. Decommissioning of every single wonder (which is possible to decommission), all military improvements plus factories.
   
5. No military wonders for a period of 1 years
   
6. Complete removal of all NPO government,
   
7. No NPO nation gets peace until they are on the grey team
   
8. NPO as an alliance must move to the pink team permanently. Members can only switch after they have been on grey for a month.
   
9. Complete re-write of the NPO constitution by Karma, including:
   
   • Permanent restriction on foreign affairs policy
     
   • Permanent restriction on the type of CB allowed for war ("spying" is not a real CB, nobody is interested in your BS).
     
   • Permanent transparency of government policy to members
     
   • Permanent restrictions on the number of each type of treaty you are allowed to hold
     

[*] One-way NAPs with every single Karma alliance for a period of 2 years.

[*] No treaties or wars for a period of 1 year.

[*] No external aid for a period of 1 year.

[*] Only allowed to sell tech to the alliances NPO is currently at war with for a period of 1 year.

[*] Must apologise for every single war they have ever been in.

[*] Specifically apologise for instituting smear campaigns against the alliances for which this is true.

[*] If at any time any of these rules are broken, all of NPO's present enemies plus all willing alliances will ZI every NPO nation and the duration of terms would be reset.

NPO should be worshipping the alliances at war with them for being so generous. NPO has no clue how lucky it is that they have decided to be merciful and impose lenient terms compared to the harshness of terms NPO has historically given (LUE, NAAC, LoSS, GATO, Legion, MK, etc).

These terms are genius, you should definitely be heading up the peace negotiations, this would absolutely prevent the Vindictive coalition from turning on each other and/or losing any remaining credibility.

Edited June 15, 2009 by James Dahl

[Teriethien]

But anyway, gotta do something to kill the boogeyman. He might come back for us someday. And honestly, after this display, all of you involved in this set of terms will deserve anything you ever get in the future.

Listen to this Karma: give the NPO white peace already. Pacifica is totally not going to come back and try force your alliances to disband in 3 months time.

[Letum]

I recommend reading Azaghul's thread on proportionality.

"Proportionality" boils down to "We can do anything we feel like if you deserve it, and we get to set the rules on what you deserve"

Also known as: morality is relative.

One man's freedom to tech raid is another man's oppression of the unaligned. One man's "defending allies from a totally bankrupt attack on those allies" is another's "unwarranted and destructive use of weapons of mass destruction."

To claim that "it is okay because we feel it is just" is nothing more than a circular argument. What happened to the Unjust Path was justified as being a result of their "oppression" of various groups, what happened to BLEU was in large part a result of them being the core group that destroyed the UJP, and what is happening to NPO is in large part due to the last war.

Or is proportionality supposed to be based on hard cold facts, like the sizes of the alliances involved? Okay, I am game. From that thread, MK had 190 members to pay the reps, these terms give us 181 (174 now) to pay them. MK fought for 14 days, about 1/3 of our 174 nations has fought for 55 days, i.e 69 with the terms (more nations actually, but we can count some people cycling to make up the difference) . MK had to pay out 15% of what we pay (money adjusted), but if we are to apply a proportion based simply on numbers, we would pay 82,000 x (174/190) x (2/3 + ((1/3) x (14/69))) = 55,142

Obviously, that is way too low to even be considered. But it illustrates the fallacy of your "proportionality" argument; it depends very much on the criteria you use to determine "what is proportional". And given how subjective these criteria can be, claiming that they give you some kind of absolute quality of "fairness and justice" is incorrect.

Oh wait, I forgot, "Aggression", right? Depending on your perspective, it is the act of war which can be considered the aggression. Once again, subjective.

Seriously, those fighting us should just stick with the people who admit the purpose of these terms is simply to cripple the New Pacific Order for as long as possible, because revanchism goes both ways. That, I can respect. I will do everything in my power to counteract it of course, but I would not assign people a character fault for acting in their interests.

Leave the wrapping for the Christmas presents.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Letum

[astronaut jones]

Why does karma, after reading this thread, remind me of lord of the flies all of a sudden?

[Bob]

Once again I see terms edited into that list that were imposed by others and not Pacifica.

Was it not Sponge who claims he is the one who forced the disbandments after UJW? Yet now Sponge is one of Karma's greatest heroes and NPO gets blamed for his actions.

Because Sponge was closely allied to NPO? NPO condoned the actions regardless of the disbandment of alliances that had been their allies less than a month before.

Just like people earlier have blamed NPO for the past actions of Sparta, RoK, and many other hegemonic alliances that dished out harsh reps/terms in the past.

Examples of Sparta and RoK and terrible terms? Sparta took 1k tech from GR, and part of that was forgiven to us.

You can just take the results of every war ever waged and say NPO was at fault.

Well, you can, but it's nonsensical.

You do realize that on that list, NPO started almost all of those wars, right? There are more wars, just those are the examples of ones started by NPO or that NPO was involved in.

But anyway, gotta do something to kill the boogeyman. He might come back for us someday. And honestly, after this display, all of you involved in this set of terms will deserve anything you ever get in the future.

Just as much as most everyone else in the past deserved them

Edit for clarity.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Penlugue Solaris

[Lady Red]

I don't recall any terms, levied by the NPO, that ordered any alliance to disband. Feel free to continue to argue that we asked for reps that they didn't want to pay. But unless you can link me to a thread where we officially disbanded an alliance, you can kindly adjust your phrasing.

[Daikos]

This thread really delivers. Every time I think I see the worlds dumbest post, another one comes along that tops it. Congo rats to you NPO and friends.

[Bob]

I don't recall any terms, levied by the NPO, that ordered any alliance to disband. Feel free to continue to argue that we asked for reps that they didn't want to pay. But unless you can link me to a thread where we officially disbanded an alliance, you can kindly adjust your phrasing.

I laughed, I cried, I died.

Thank you for that.

Your actions led to the disbandment of 9 alliances.

Better?

[Ogaden]

This thread really delivers. Every time I think I see the worlds dumbest post, another one comes along that tops it. Congo rats to you NPO and friends.

In that case you won the thread, congratulations.