Ultimatum to Sparta

[BringMeTheHorizon]

Well if it makes you feel better, it was most likely a *#$*@ thing to do then.

Meh i guess im just a heartless economist trade partners or what ever it is you can call me. Its part of the game i got over it, RV should do the thing. This has spiraled out of control from both sides, both wrong in my opinion but both done within the contexts of the game,

[Ebony Wings]

Read my edit its happened to me. I dont see the big deal if its part of the game. I'm sorry that i fail to see why its a travesty that it happened to RV.

I believe I mentioned you acting like a crass !@#$%^& when it comes to economic relations. This may or may not have anything to do with your inability to grasp the scope of the situation. I wish there was something more polite I could say, but a spade's a spade.

[The Corrupt Teacher]

Oceana - and myself as well - has always advocated a unified Aqua Team. Stormsend's part in the creation of ICE during his time in MK was an extension of what we wanted to accomplish through ION. Furthermore, how can you be so cavalier about something your alliance is a part of? Does the idea of Aqua being a respectable trading sphere bother you that much?

lol how can I be so Cavalier about Aqua Unity? Lets see... I spent a better part of my first 1 3/4 working on it watching various treaty after treaty tank due to pettiness and bickering over perceived power struggles within the team and all the work I and other who actually wanted this tank due to the idiocy of others. Check the Aqua Ice treaty announcement I was big on it until I realized that hey this isn't a reality so screw it. Aqua is great economically but unified? No not really not while its divided up among people trying to get positioning for SF, Citadel, CnG etc. but since this really has no place in this thread back to the topic

Let it be known that the League and TGR has reached a peace agreement. I have determined them to be worthy enough to live. So you see Sparta, I am not completely unreasonable. You know where to find me should you wish to end this

Somehow after this I doubt thats going to happen lol.

[BringMeTheHorizon]

I believe I mentioned you acting like a crass !@#$%^& when it comes to economic relations. This may or may not have anything to do with your inability to grasp the scope of the situation. I wish there was something more polite I could say, but a spade's a spade.

Sorry i dont know what a crass censored word is, so it probably went over my head. The scope of the situation is there both wrong, both took it too far. But both were done within the context of the game and one or both of them should stop crying about it. Oh noes he got sanctioned oh noes a member of Sparta got retaliated against. Id be more concerned that a Blue senator in an Aqua alliance sanctioned the blue nation.

[New Reverie]

wow, thread exploded since last i checked.

I think that sanctioning RV was the only option Sparta was left with.

After all, if RV cannot accept the reps from the surrender terms he has offered Sparta, then how can he hold Sparta too them.

RV: Pay up sparta

Sparta: We would, but you can't accept aid

RV: FFFFUUUUUUUUUUUU!!!!!!!!!

[pacers7isback]

Nevermind, not worth it...

Edited June 5, 2009 by pacers7isback

[Vilien]

Nevermind, not worth it...

I saw your original post.

Who was it that attacked who again?

[BringMeTheHorizon]

Nevermind, not worth it...

I thought your original post was decent. Would have made little difference but decent none the less.

[Rebel Virginia]

Somehow after this I doubt thats going to happen lol.

It's happening. As I said, I can be merciful when I want to.

And what of the bill locking and raiding of tech that was meant for long-term tech buyers done to Kensui? The first 3 months are critical for nation growth and the country of Yorkshire has been crippled with repercussions that will probably be visible nearly a month from now. Yes, he will get aid to make up the difference but probably not enough to make up for the anarchy and loss of tech which he'll have to rebuy to complete his tech deal. And where is that money coming from? Not from RV obviously. This money is using up foreign aid slots of Spartan banks that would otherwise be used for either the Karma War effort, or for their own growth. RV has added the involvement of Sparta's upper class who is buying tech, as well as the Spartan Bank System.

Add in the fact that RV did this to two other people from other alliances, and you have a lot of people he has effected. Much more than the 5 from the trade sanction.

As for the 5 affected through the sanction, you realize that they could have as much as 19 days to overcome that and have absolutely 0 effect on them right? If they don't absolutely need to, they will not be collecting or paying taxes while missing a trade. Unless they are warring a rogue, they are almost guaranteed to not be at war currently as there are no nations on blue with > 20K nation strength fighting NPO, much less any with missing trades, so the soldier efficiency is a moot point. Besides, the sanction is almost guaranteed to be removed within the next 48 hours, in which all trade partners can return to trading, which I'm sure they will do.

That's war for you, sweet cheeks. Listen, if you really want me to mess up tech raids and discourage your new members, know that I can do his for a lot longer than you can.

Also, nice try, but I'm quicker than you.

Edited June 5, 2009 by Rebel Virginia

[Doc Taco]

It is a dangerous precedent for senators to act on their own without going through the governments on the sphere that got them elected. In the future, if someone would like to make a case to sanction a nation on the blue team, please speak to a leader in a Blue team alliance that currently holds a top 3 spot. Right now, that means MCXA or NpO. While right now both of our senators, Raunchero and Ski11585, are government members of the Blue sphere alliances they represent that may not always be the case. Magicalbricks, for example, was elected as a Vidian senator before defecting midway through his term. He no longer represents any government on the Blue sphere and should not be accepting sanctioning requests on our sphere's behalf.

It's a rather unusual situation, granted, but I don't feel comfortable when my sphere stability is held at the whim of a senator who no longer leads a Blue team alliance. Such senators should, at the very least, confer with the government that got them elected to begin with before fulfilling sanction requests.

I mostly agree with this. But a few points I would like to make nonetheless. Of course I do not know the full back story, am not personally acquainted with MB, and am not in MHA gov, so take this for what it is worth:

The MHA did not run Magical Bricks as a Senator for the Blue team. His senatorial status preceded his joining our esteemed alliance. Until today I had no clue Magical Bricks even was a Blue Team Senator.

Senators which the MHA does run (we have none now as we have been sending our votes to the Gremlins for some time now) generally honor sanction requests made by our treaty partners. When an ally comes to us and says, so-and-so is a nuke rogue, or so-and-so spied, or whatever, it is usual practice to grant the sanction then and there. MHA Senators are not commonly of the practice to give our allies the third degree, sort out third party opinions and access the validity of their claim. If MHA were to ask Sparta's senator for a sanction I would hope that it would be given without having to consult every alliance on black. So, while MB is not MHA's senator, and most if not all of us were ignorant of his senatorial status, his behavior is not unlike the behavior one might expect if he was MHA's senator. MB did not go out looking for people to sanction willy-nilly. He responded to a request by a close MHA ally. 'Nuff said.

It seems clear to me that RV, while not a nuke rogue, basically had it coming.

5 Blue nations have to find a new trade partner. OMG!!! One new trade partner!!!! Their nations are as good as dead. They might as well reroll or else quit CN entirely. This is worst than ZI!! MHA why have you done this?!?!?!? WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY?!?!?!?!?!?! This means war.

[pacers7isback]

I saw your original post.

Who was it that attacked who again?

Slovenis of Sparta attacked Rebel Virginia flying the NPO AA and flag

RV changes AA to his FAIL alliance

RV demands huge reps from Sparta for unwarranted attack

I believe Sparta just flat out ignored, at worst Gov said no

RV attacks Yorkview, throws into anarchy and raids tech from a tech seller

Someone from The Galactic Republic posts support for Sparta

RV attacks them, throws into anarchy

TGR member continues to taunt

RV attacks another TGR member, also thrown into anarchy

Sparta gov (supposedly) asks a blue MHA senator to sanction RV

He has a questionable PM exchange with RV

magicbricks sanctions RV

Lots of drama

MHA claims that they take no credit for what magicbricks does as senator

More drama

And that's what has happened the last day or two

Edited June 5, 2009 by pacers7isback

[Melutar]

I have resolved the situation with RV We treated him as we would a tech raider, since the League is so small.

[Rebel Virginia]

The MHA did not run Magical Bricks as a Senator for the Blue team. His senatorial status preceded his joining our esteemed alliance. Until today I had no clue Magical Bricks even was a Blue Team Senator.

He should have switched off blue or turned off senate votes, so that he would vacate his senate seat. He was no longer serving the position for which he was elected. He was elected to represent the interest of the blue team, and not MHA or Sparta. He mislead blue voters.

It seems clear to me that RV, while not a nuke rogue, basically had it coming.

Oh sure, blame the victim. Do remember that Sparta attacked me first. I have every right to retaliate.

5 Blue nations have to find a new trade partner. OMG!!! One new trade partner!!!! Their nations are as good as dead. They might as well reroll or else quit CN entirely. This is worst than ZI!! MHA why have you done this?!?!?!? WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY?!?!?!?!?!?! This means war.

Yes, make a joke. Try to downplay the situation and ignore the point. Another classic move from the NPO playbook. You guys really aren't so different from them are you?

[Vilien]

Slovenis of Sparta attacked Rebel Virginia flying the NPO AA and flag

RV changes AA to his FAIL alliance

RV demands huge reps from Sparta for unwarranted attack

I believe Sparta just flat out ignored, at worst Gov said no

RV attacks Yorkview, throws into anarchy and raids tech from a tech seller

Someone from The Galactic Republic posts support for Sparta

RV attacks them, throws into anarchy

TGR member continues to taunt

RV attacks another TGR member, also thrown into anarchy

Sparta gov (supposedly) asks a blue MHA senator to sanction RV

He has a questionable PM exchange with RV

magicbricks sanctions RV

Lots of drama

MHA claims that they take no credit for what magicbricks does as senator

More drama

And that's what has happened the last day or two

[Penguin]

I mostly agree with this. But a few points I would like to make nonetheless. Of course I do not know the full back story, am not personally acquainted with MB, and am not in MHA gov, so take this for what it is worth:

The MHA did not run Magical Bricks as a Senator for the Blue team. His senatorial status preceded his joining our esteemed alliance. Until today I had no clue Magical Bricks even was a Blue Team Senator.

Senators which the MHA does run (we have none now as we have been sending our votes to the Gremlins for some time now) generally honor sanction requests made by our treaty partners. When an ally comes to us and says, so-and-so is a nuke rogue, or so-and-so spied, or whatever, it is usual practice to grant the sanction then and there. MHA Senators are not commonly of the practice to give our allies the third degree, sort out third party opinions and access the validity of their claim. If MHA were to ask Sparta's senator for a sanction I would hope that it would be given without having to consult every alliance on black. So, while MB is not MHA's senator, and most if not all of us were ignorant of his senatorial status, his behavior is not unlike the behavior one might expect if he was MHA's senator. MB did not go out looking for people to sanction willy-nilly. He responded to a request by a close MHA ally. 'Nuff said.

I suppose that is true, however it would certainly turn a few heads on the Blue sphere if MHA wanted to make a claim to holding and exercising a senate seat over here. I voted for Magicalbricks this election (sorry Ski!) when he was an ally of mine under the assumption that he would serve out his term as a senator from Nueva Vida. When he went to MHA, I didn't think too much of it because incidents like this are pretty rare and Magicalbricks is a really nice fellow, but looking back I still considered him to be our senator rather than MHA's senator because we got him elected. I'm not particularly upset at anyone here, especially not the MHA government. I am more concerned with setting a good precedent for the way future senators should behave in similar situations when they no longer serve the governments that elected them.

It seems clear to me that RV, while not a nuke rogue, basically had it coming.

5 Blue nations have to find a new trade partner. OMG!!! One new trade partner!!!! Their nations are as good as dead. They might as well reroll or else quit CN entirely. This is worst than ZI!! MHA why have you done this?!?!?!? WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY?!?!?!?!?!?! This means war.

Don't get me wrong, I was simply suggesting that contacting a Blue team government would have been a better alternative. I am not nearly as worked up as all of those exclamation points and question marks suggest, although I doubt that comment was directed specifically towards me.

Edited June 5, 2009 by Penguin

[Chickenzilla]

Sparta has made a powerful enemy today, they should tread more carefully than this thread has shown them to. RV is not to be trifled with.

This is true, I remember when RV took down Atlantis single handedly.

Let it be known that the League and TGR has reached a peace agreement. I have determined them to be worthy enough to live. So you see Sparta, I am not completely unreasonable. You know where to find me should you wish to end this.

Hail the wise RV, he is as merciful as he is handsome!

[Jens of the desert]

Well that was funny >_>

[Roadie]

If I'm reading this correctly, in one post MHA says that this senator is elected by the blue team, therefore he doesn't represent MHA, he represents blue. In another post, MHA says this senator was acting on a request from one of MHAs allies. Isn't this trying to have it both ways?

Edited June 5, 2009 by Roadie

[Haflinger]

It is a dangerous precedent for senators to act on their own without going through the governments on the sphere that got them elected. In the future, if someone would like to make a case to sanction a nation on the Blue team, please speak to a leader in a Blue team alliance that currently holds a top 3 spot.

Yes, I think this is reasonable.

It's also reasonable to expect senators who are members of alliances to not issue sanctions without the consent of their alliance government. I don't sanction nations unless Invicta orders me to, for example.

[Neo Uruk]

Only could RV draw this kind of response.

[Nintenderek]

If MHA were to ask Sparta's senator for a sanction I would hope that it would be given without having to consult every alliance on black.

Here's the key word. On black. Sparta is a black team alliance. MHA is not a blue team alliance, so someone from MHA has no place being a senator on blue and he should have turned off the option to vote for him when he changed alliances. Clearly, the individual senator didn't want to give up the power he no longer deserves.

Blue nations have to find a new trade partner. OMG!!! One new trade partner!!!! Their nations are as good as dead. They might as well reroll or else quit CN entirely. This is worst than ZI!! MHA why have you done this?!?!?!? WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY?!?!?!?!?!?! This means war.

If one of my trade partners got sanctioned, it would indeed be a big deal. I have never had my all my trades filled because of my resources. If anyone of RV's former trading partners have that same problem, this would indeed be a very big deal to the trading partner that he just lost a trade that he might have spent 3 months trying to get, because some alliance wanted to show off it's power with a senator for the alliance that of the color being sanctioned.

Edited June 5, 2009 by Nintenderek

[Doc Taco]

Don't get me wrong, I was simply suggesting that contacting a Blue team government would have been a better alternative. I am not nearly as worked up as all of those exclamation points and question marks suggest, although I doubt that comment was directed specifically towards me.

Yeah Penguin, the last point I made, the one with all the exclamation points, was not directed at you.

I will agree with many others here in putting forth the opinion that when MB left NV, along with relinquishing any governmental powers he had over there he ought to have also relinquished his Senate seat.

[zzzptm]

Save the sanctions for the NUCLEAR rogues, please and thank you very much. Regular rogues, such as Mr. Virginia, can be dealt with by way of conventional weapons. If tech deals are disrupted, forgive them if they're internal or have other sellers cover them to external clients. It's that simple. For the rest of the slots for the small nations being attacked, fill them with aid so they can tower in strength over RV's nation, deal it severe blows, and then leave him to move on to the next set of Sparta nations. They'll come out of this with loads of aid and military experience. If that's too much of a problem or a hassle, then negotiate with RV to see what can be done about the situation. If there's an impasse, then meet him, strength for strength.

But sanctions? Bad form, that. Very bad form, that.

Sanctions should not be used as a weapon of war except against a nuclear rogue. That's pretty much the way the world feels. Popular sentiment should be heeded, especially on occasions such as this. Sparta can play its hand much better in this affair.

[ayrrie]

Given that we've proven that Sparta has an excess of free slots, and given that they've lamented that excess, I really don't see why they couldn't have just had some of their bored lower-level nations hit RV instead of going for a questionable sanction. It's not like all of their nations are 100% committed to the big war and need all of their cash. It would, in fact, be rather pathetic if that were the case, given all of the alliances currently fighting NPO and company.

A very unintelligent decision, and a very good showing of what is to come. Stay classy, Sparta.

Edited June 5, 2009 by ayrrie

[Penguin]

Here's the key word. On black. Sparta is a black team alliance. MHA is not a blue team alliance, so someone from MHA has no place being a senator on blue and he should have turned off the option to vote for him when he changed alliances. Clearly, the individual senator didn't want to give up the power he no longer deserves.

That's not true. Magicalbricks had enough votes to remain a senator for the rest of the term when he switched to MHA even if he switched off voting. I doubt it had anything to do with him refusing to give up power and everything to do with him adjusting to not leading a Blue team alliance. When he was Emperor at NV and a senator, he could essentially follow through with sanction requests on his own authority. I would suggest that the way this was handled was due to nothing more than force of habit.