Memoirs: MCXA, Vox Populi, and the true meaning of loyalty.

[Gen Lee]

I can't believe I read the whole thing...

I was completely unsurprised to hear further accounts that Sam is actually the piece of crap we all know him to be.

Also I really fail to see how passing information to Vox helps MCXA unless possibly your goal was to uproot the government there, but then you complained it was too messy once they left....so yeah.

And finally I'm assuming you had relatively no authority over FA moves there, because the best way to distance yourself from the alliances you mentioned is to cancel a treaty whether you have a precious MDP to back you up afterward or not.

[Gatherum]

Gatherum inhaled and exhaled sharply in dismay, casually and randomly sat upon the ground, and spoke.

Alright...

...so it seems that some people still cannot seem to get over the whole espionage deal. While this point has been stressed in greater words by my former comrades in arms as well as a few others, I too, am heavily dismayed by the heavy use of that issue to try to brand my great friend Francesca here as a traitor to her alliance, when this is very simply not the case.

Too many of you hold to this flawed sense of morality...that to spy in favor of the supposed "enemy" (who was not even an enemy officially, lacking any veritable and stated recognition of a state of war between MCXA and Vox Populi) somehow instantly brands one as a treasonous, sinful, writhing snake, hungering for its own sizeable bite of the power. There is a reason that this thread's title mentions loyalty, or more specifically, the true meaning thereof, and a better reason why it is said at the end that it is not so cut and dry: because it is not. Francesca acted in the way that she did because she knew that MCXA, the alliance that she could have left to rot for the same reasons that those now in TSO did, was falling by the wayside, in a direction that was detrimental. Throughout this thread, I have seen this accusation: Fran is a disloyal traitor, because she (as CSM already asserted, only partially) informed Vox upon the affairs of MCXA. This, frankly, is a narrow, lackluster, asinine, and ancient assessment that has long ceased to hold any water, save for those remaining few drops that only accumulate because a surprising number of people still adhere to it. The argument is empty and based on its support, and no longer by any sort of factual accuracy. I implore you all to please leave it behind. Disloyalty exists...this is not an example of it.

Someone in this thread misinterpreted Fran's outlining of the plan we shared as a claim that were the masterminds. I fail to see where we have stated this, anywhere, for we were, in fact, merely small pawns in a very large chessboard in comparison with those of much greater minds and ambitions, such as those of the former Senate of Vox. Indeed, our plan was, very simply, while Fran was MCXA's MoFA, and while I was a spy in ODN, to move them both away from the Hegemony, partly by bringing them closer to each other. I will admit that it was not the soundest of plans, for one of the goals was also for Fran to focus upon building relations with VE, an issue with ODN since they had just come out of the diplomatic crisis involving the International, which left a taste of utmost disgust within the mouths of ODN's GA; I could argue this point to no avail.

I am confident, however, that the plan had potential, at least until the trials. Though I remained outside MCXA affairs for the most part, it is my understanding that those trials occurred primarily because Fran, and three others: Sup4, nc, and Ilya_Murometz, were seemingly in agreement regarding increased relations with VE. The government of MCXA at the time, however (conveniently, I might add), saw them as a separate political party, which, for some reason, is outlawed in the MCXA charter (which, in and of itself, is odd, because it is the charter of what is supposed to be a democratic alliance). Fran resigned, of course, and I believe nc left. Sup4 cut some sort of deal with the Chancellors and thus was able to remain. I am not sure what Ilya did, though I imagine he left since he is now in VE. Regardless of the details, this effectively foiled any of our efforts to steer MCXA in a more desirable direction. Beforehand, Fran had, as some of you have been so adamantly poised to tell her to do, been following ordinary procedure, trying to keep relations up with as many alliances as possible (particularly, the blue ones) and doing the rest of her duties as any MoFA would.

Thus it would be that only half of the plan was successful: ODN, as we all plainly see, has broken away from the Hegemony. Why? No, it is not due to my efforts, which actually had very little to do with it. It is because it has a very active, very intelligent member base, most of which who know the meaning of abstract thought. What MCXA had was, as asserted by multiple people here, an inactive bunch who served only the smallest of purposes.

In regard to TSO, do you want to know why it is that you are greater traitors than Fran ever was, assuming of course, that she can remotely be considered one anyway? It is because of those same reasons you outline in why you left in the first place. And yet, here you are, arguing that she is the traitor because she circumvented the normal procedures. You expect her to work solely with the same inactive membership, deal with the same inefficiencies of the system that you became tired of working in. I ask you then...why the hell did you not stay and do that yourselves? You worked with it for awhile, yes, but then you left, in effect, leaving them to rot. If you really gave a damn about MCXA, you would have, at the very least, postponed your move to create TSO the moment you realized that the transition was not going as smoothly as you thought (a fact that Sam has relayed in this very thread), and taken responsibility until things were more stabilized. Instead, you left anyway. You are half of the reason MCXA was destroyed militarily in this war, the other half being the current government's unwillingness to realize what was more beneficial to MCXA, instead focusing pointlessly on strong, continued relations with Pacifica.

You have shown your hypocrisy in this thread. You did not abide by the procedures outlined in the MCXA's charter by working with the membership. Yes, it was an inactive, useless mass, for the most part, and yet you expect Fran to work with it when you abandoned it? Whether you would believe it or not, that is what happens in a Democracy: for the people, by the people. Her solution was not of the mundane variety either, but at least she stayed and tried. You run away crying. And you wonder why TSO is so frequently met with ire on this subject.

That is what is being referred to by loyalty, is the effort by which Fran worked in favor of the MCXA, even as a Voxian. Truth be told, Vox had the best of intentions, but not all the means necessarily had to be moral. Vox would undoubtedly have been satisfied with MCXA's, or ODN's, disbandment. Less enemies for us, and less support for the opposition. Neither Fran nor I chose to take that path, though, because we cared for the alliances that we had infiltrated and informed upon. It is a different breed of loyalty, yes...but it is loyalty all the same.

As for the TFS Pedophile incident, I am not even going into that extensively, for I know too little of what went on, suffice to say that I think the lot of you, and I refer to Fran, nc, TFS himself, and anyone else, should drop the subject and move on. It is obviously a damned mess and has gotten rediculous. TFS, your verbage was indeed aggressive, but I agree that it is nothing new to the English language. Fran, in all honesty, "Go $%&@ yourself" is not a sexual comment in even the slightest degree, and nc, while I will respect your effort to conceal her age, we both know that Fran is more than old enough to handle "inappropriate comments", and in fact, she, you, I, and every else in a certain room we tend to go to, and beyond, is guilty of making them, to much higher degrees.

Seriously, get over it. We're big kids now. This is disgusting.

As to the OP, you writ this well, Fran, and I commend you for finally stepping out into the open to deliver this. Everyone in Solitude loves you very much, and I sense that our friendship will last far beyond the death of Digiterra itself.

"You have taken your first step...into a much larger world." <3

Edited June 3, 2009 by Gatherum

[RandomInterrupt]

I read the entire OP and skimmed most the comments in this thread. I have had my fill of barely comprehensible crap-posting from MCXA failures.

I enjoyed reading this post and it reminded me of the situations many players find themselves in. Seeing how they resolve these situations is a window into their mindset, and I see nothing dishonorable about what you did here. I can relate to your struggles to try and move your home alliance away from the NPO, and your frustrations in failing. The MCXA owes you a lot, as far as I can tell. It's sad that you will never receive credit from them.

Quite a few of the people decrying espionage here are in alliances who have used information obtained by espionage in the past to curbstomp other alliances.

Someone had to say this. I actually cracked up seeing TOP members complain about spying. Still waiting for that apology for accepting all those screenshots that the NPO spy took from Polar and then sharing that information. Any day now would be good.

And now as a VE government member, I ask all VE members including Fran to cease posting in this thread. Failure to do so will result in actions being taken by the alliance against the poster.

I laughed at this too.

Francesca, you seem like a great player. The MCXA was not suited to you and I don't think the VE is either. I hope that one day you'll find a home that suits you well.

[Haflinger]

And finally I'm assuming you had relatively no authority over FA moves there, because the best way to distance yourself from the alliances you mentioned is to cancel a treaty whether you have a precious MDP to back you up afterward or not.

Unfortunately, this is not the popular way to distance yourself from an alliance these days.

Now the thing to do is to sign an MADP with your allies' enemies and get them to cancel on you.

Bah. If you truly object to your allies' actions, cancel your treaty, so long as there isn't the shadow of war hanging in the air. Or, get them to change their actions.

[Sooner]

Welcome to the Open World RP forum, it is out of character. You are John Doe of Loft-Over-Parents'-Garagia, not a member of the VE gov't. I am John Doe of Someone's-Basementland, not Schattenmann.

By the way, just kick Fran out instead of threatening, it doesn't look as silly.

Sorry, I didn't realize you became Cornelius overnight, body snatcher.

Regardless, I can tell our membership to stop posting should myself or any other VE government feel it is not in their best interests. Face it, schattenmann, we all know that by posting on the OWF RP section, that you lose brain cells faster than on a coke binge. I'm trying to preserve that Viridian brain power of our members.

And Fran is most welcome here. The only "punishment" that she and others may receive a forum PM from myself or others asking them to cool it. We allow freedom of speech, but we expect our members to act respectfully.

Edited June 3, 2009 by Sooner

[Meer Republic]

The super evil agenda: "Pull large alliances out of NPO's sphere of control without getting them destroyed so that the hegemony is dismantled while the alliances are not." TRUE EVIL!

You're putting words into my mouth you rascal, any alliance she decided to 'outsource' MCXAs FA to would have it's own agenda. If that agenda is good or not isn't really relevant, it's still not the brightest move.

Someone had to say this. I actually cracked up seeing TOP members complain about spying. Still waiting for that apology for accepting all those screenshots that the NPO spy took from Polar and then sharing that information. Any day now would be good.

Please tell me about a time a TOP member actually spied or we acted as a handler for a spy? Yeah thought not.

Edited June 3, 2009 by Meercats

[Dragonaspect]

In regard to TSO, do you want to know why it is that you are greater traitors than Fran ever was, assuming of course, that she can remotely be considered one anyway? It is because of those same reasons you outline in why you left in the first place. And yet, here you are, arguing that she is traitor because she circumvented the normal procedures. You expect her to work solely with the same inactive membership, deal with the same inefficiencies of the system that you became tired of working in. I ask you then...why the hell did you not stay and do that yourselves? You worked with it for awhile, yes, but then you left, in effect, leaving them to rot. If you really gave a damn about MCXA, you would have, at the very least, postponed your move to create TSO the moment you realized that the transition was not going as smoothly as you thought (a fact that Sam has relayed in this very thread), and taken responsibility until things were more stabilized. Instead, you left anyway. You are half of the reason MCXA was destroyed militarily in this war, the other half being the current government's unwillingness to realize what was more beneficial to MCXA, instead focusing pointlessly on strong, continued relations with Pacifica.

You have shown your hypocrisy in this thread. You did not abide by the procedures outlined in the MCXA's charter by working with the membership. Yes, it was an inactive, useless mass, for the most part, and yet you expect Fran to work with it when you abandoned it? Whether you would believe it or not, that is what happens in a Democracy: for the people, by the people. Her solution was not of the mundane variety either, but at least stayed and tried. You run away crying. And you wonder why TSO is so frequently met with ire on this subject.

Wrong

We never planned to leave this early until we were ASKED to leave instead of doing the staggered resigning by the overtaking MCXA government. I can even remember Francesca being among those

Also, we are not crying, we are trying to correct some misconceptions, you seem to hold even now.

I don't give a damn about the opinion of those who have hated us forever anyways, I just cannot let some of the fallacies stated go by without correcting them, out of principle.

OOC: If my posts seem slightly strange and confusing, I have had a very long day, so please forgive any spelling/grammar mistakes

[Gatherum]

Wrong

We never planned to leave this early until we were ASKED to leave instead of doing the staggered resigning by the overtaking MCXA government. I can even remember Francesca being among those

Also, we are not crying, we are trying to correct some misconceptions, you seem to hold even now.

I don't give a damn about the opinion of those who have hated us forever anyways, I just cannot let some of the fallacies stated go by without correcting them, out of principle.

OOC: If my posts seem slightly strange and confusing, I have had a very long day, so please forgive any spelling/grammar mistakes

The very fact that you planned to, and actually emmigrated in the first place, especially for the reasons stated (whether they be a lack of appreciation, an inactive membership, or a failing system) is betrayal, and, as I stated, it is hypocritical to criticize Fran for circumventing the system for those very same reasons.

And for the love of Odin, would you people (and by "you people", I mean "everyone") please stop trying to feign disinterest. If, in your case, you didn't care...truly didn't care, you would be perfectly content with me choking upon my own "ignorance."

You care. Live with it.

[RandomInterrupt]

And Fran is most welcome here. The only "punishment" that she and others may receive a forum PM from myself or others asking them to cool it. We allow freedom of speech, but we expect our members to act respectfully.

She has been entirely respectful in this thread. Why did you tell her to stop posting then?

Please tell me about a time a TOP member actually spied or we acted as a handler for a spy? Yeah thought not.

It would be off-topic to go into this in depth, again. But I have shown many times that your alliance did in fact move around known information gathered by a Pacifican spy. This is fact.

[Electron Sponge]

So basically, you helped your alliance by contributing to bringing it to the beaten state of affairs it finds itself in now?

Perhaps had certain alliances honored the terms of the Möbius Accords, MCXA wouldn't be in quite such a beaten state of affairs. Infra>Friends, apparently. Oh wait, the friends already left and formed TSO so I guess that point is moot.

That being said, MCXA has been on a failboat for a long, long time. It's only because we've had more glaring examples such as GGA that we've neglected the Sick Man of the Blue Team. I mean with GGA the posts just write themselves, you must admit. I don't think Fran contributed to the beaten state of affairs at all actually. I know what she was doing as Minister of Foreign Affairs and it was good, solid diplomatic work to give MCXA decent relations with alliances outside the hegemonic blocs.

[Steelrat]

Gatherum inhaled and exhaled sharply in dismay, casually and randomly sat upon the ground, and spoke.

In regard to TSO, do you want to know why it is that you are greater traitors than Fran ever was, assuming of course, that she can remotely be considered one anyway? It is because of those same reasons you outline in why you left in the first place. And yet, here you are, arguing that she is traitor because she circumvented the normal procedures. You expect her to work solely with the same inactive membership, deal with the same inefficiencies of the system that you became tired of working in. I ask you then...why the hell did you not stay and do that yourselves? You worked with it for awhile, yes, but then you left, in effect, leaving them to rot. If you really gave a damn about MCXA, you would have, at the very least, postponed your move to create TSO the moment you realized that the transition was not going as smoothly as you thought (a fact that Sam has relayed in this very thread), and taken responsibility until things were more stabilized. Instead, you left anyway. You are half of the reason MCXA was destroyed militarily in this war, the other half being the current government's unwillingness to realize what was more beneficial to MCXA, instead focusing pointlessly on strong, continued relations with Pacifica.

You have shown your hypocrisy in this thread. You did not abide by the procedures outlined in the MCXA's charter by working with the membership. Yes, it was an inactive, useless mass, for the most part, and yet you expect Fran to work with it when you abandoned it? Whether you would believe it or not, that is what happens in a Democracy: for the people, by the people. Her solution was not of the mundane variety either, but at least stayed and tried. You run away crying. And you wonder why TSO is so frequently met with ire on this subject.

I have a complete other point of view.

Think about it this way, after months of dealing with any sort of possible crap in an alliance you helped to build, including the charter, the spirit, you put endless hours of time into, you tried to improve and whatnot, Sam and others left. For me that speak volumes. I can´t imagine how bad the situation must have been, how worse the atmosphere when player now in TSO decided to leave after they worked so long for something they loved.

Accusing them of abandoning is very easy if you leave out that those ones who left actually were the MXCA for a great part and most time, the ones who cared before, endless hours of hours.

Think about how hard it must be to leave something you helped to build for years, how worse the situation must be when you decided to go apart and yet you try to portray them as bad people, sorry Gatherum but that´s not the usual Gatherum i´m used to know form OWF.

I can only imagine the reasons why you act like that, one maybe to protect a former VOX member.

Edited June 3, 2009 by Steelrat

[Baden-Württemberg]

In regard to TSO, do you want to know why it is that you are greater traitors than Fran ever was, assuming of course, that she can remotely be considered one anyway? It is because of those same reasons you outline in why you left in the first place. And yet, here you are, arguing that she is the traitor because she circumvented the normal procedures. You expect her to work solely with the same inactive membership, deal with the same inefficiencies of the system that you became tired of working in. I ask you then...why the hell did you not stay and do that yourselves? You worked with it for awhile, yes, but then you left, in effect, leaving them to rot. If you really gave a damn about MCXA, you would have, at the very least, postponed your move to create TSO the moment you realized that the transition was not going as smoothly as you thought (a fact that Sam has relayed in this very thread), and taken responsibility until things were more stabilized. Instead, you left anyway. You are half of the reason MCXA was destroyed militarily in this war, the other half being the current government's unwillingness to realize what was more beneficial to MCXA, instead focusing pointlessly on strong, continued relations with Pacifica.

You have shown your hypocrisy in this thread. You did not abide by the procedures outlined in the MCXA's charter by working with the membership. Yes, it was an inactive, useless mass, for the most part, and yet you expect Fran to work with it when you abandoned it? Whether you would believe it or not, that is what happens in a Democracy: for the people, by the people. Her solution was not of the mundane variety either, but at least she stayed and tried. You run away crying. And you wonder why TSO is so frequently met with ire on this subject.

Except that as far as I know she isn't criticized for leaving. She is criticizing us for leaving and we criticize her for spying.

That said, I think we all know the glass tables people use in poker games. They allow cameras to view the cards but not the players on the table. In my opinion spying is like using a mirror to view the other players cards. You can call it a useful tool to win the game, others would call it illegal.

I think browsing someones Forums is indeed comparable with looking in someones cards in a card game.

[Electron Sponge]

I have a complete other point of view.

Think about it this way, after months of dealing with any sort of possible crap in an alliance you helped to build, including the charter, the spirit, you put endless hours of time into, you tried to improve and whatnot, Sam and others left. For me that speak volumes. I can´t imagine how bad the situation must have been, how worse the atmosphere when player now in TSO decided to leave after they worked so long for something they loved.

Accusing them of abandoning is very easy if you leave out that those ones who left actually were the MXCA for a great part and most time, the ones who cared before, endless hours of hours.

Think about how hard it must be to leave something you helped to build for years, how worse the situation must be when you decided to go apart and yet you try to portray them as bad people, sorry Gatherum but that´s not the usual Gatherum i´m used to know form OWF.

I can only imagine the reasons why you act like that, one maybe to protect a former VOX member.

Speaking as someone who has built one alliance and who is currently building another, abandoning your creation and leaving it adrift without anyone capable at the helm is not an option. It's a coward's way out. If you are the creator and the leader, and the alliance is failing - it's not the alliance's fault. It's yours. Fix your mess. The reason MCXA has been a mess is because the people at the top tend to rule as if the alliance exists for them instead of vice-versa. Yes, I can think about how hard it would be to leave something I put so much time into. It would be so hard that you'd probably have to force me out the door (which happened, but I digress).

I think browsing someones Forums is indeed comparable with looking in someones cards in a card game.

It's too bad that this isn't a card game and simplistic analogies don't apply to complex situations. One could also make the assertion that the deck was being stacked if you want to continue with the silly poker talk.

At any rate our glancing at the cards beat your five aces because people know the truth.

PS I know next to nothing about games of chance so I may have screwed up the terms.

[Gatherum]

I have a complete other point of view.

Think about it this way, after months of dealing with any sort of possible crap in an alliance you helped to build, including the charter, the spirit, you put endless hours of time into, you tried to improve and whatnot, Sam and others left. For me that speak volumes. I can´t imagine how bad the situation must have been, how worse the atmosphere when player now in TSO decided to leave after they worked so long for something they loved.

Accusing them of abandoning is very easy if you leave out that those ones who left actually were the MXCA for a great part and most time, the ones who cared before, endless hours of hours.

Think about how hard it must be to leave something you helped to build for years, how worse the situation must be when you decided to go apart and yet you try to portray them as bad people, sorry Gatherum but that´s not the usual Gatherum i´m used to know form OWF.

I can only imagine the reasons why you act like that, one maybe to protect a former VOX member.

I never said they were bad people. In fact, to give an example, in the one brief time I spoke to SunnyInc recently, though he had demonstrated that he could be rather relentless when he disliked somebody, he did have the conscious mind to know when he had gone a bit too far for something petty (which takes a strong will and a good sense of self to do), and seemed, overall, to be a naturally docile and rational individual. I am sure TSO has plenty of its quality players, as any alliance would.

But even I can't play the nice !@#$%^& forever. And I will admit that this instance is different because it involves a very dear friend of mine here. I will not lie and say that I do not like TSO either. I don't like the circumstances by which they have come into existence. I think that the issues they have presented in their defense are indeed, reputable, yet none to abandon your alliance for. They stayed with it for a long time, yes. But as the then acting rulers of MCXA, they were responsible for allowing the alliance to stagnate, as well as for repairing the damage. Instead, they left. That is not justifiable.

Rest assured though, that I am as Gatherum as Gatherum was ever himself.

Edited June 3, 2009 by Gatherum

[Baden-Württemberg]

Speaking as someone who has built one alliance and who is currently building another, abandoning your creation and leaving it adrift without anyone capable at the helm is not an option. It's a coward's way out. If you are the creator and the leader, and the alliance is failing - it's not the alliance's fault. It's yours. Fix your mess. The reason MCXA has been a mess is because the people at the top tend to rule as if the alliance exists for them instead of vice-versa. Yes, I can think about how hard it would be to leave something I put so much time into. It would be so hard that you'd probably have to force me out the door (which happened, but I digress).

It's too bad that this isn't a card game and simplistic analogies don't apply to complex situations. One could also make the assertion that the deck was being stacked if you want to continue with the silly poker talk.

At any rate our glancing at the cards beat your five aces because people know the truth.

PS I know next to nothing about games of chance so I may have screwed up the terms.

1. I don't think that you know anything about how I and others ruled the MCXA.

2. Why does my analogy not apply to complex situations? Is CN complex? I don't think so.

If you want I can get you a more complex analogy and compare it to espionage in economics. You spy, you don't have development costs, so you can sell your product cheaper than anyone else. It is a very useful tool, however in the long term the overall creativity and productivity will decrease, simply because the most productive and most creative companies will always have a disadvantage.

That said, out of respect to Viridia, I am not going to respond to the gem Fran left me on the previous page.

[Captain Flinders]

So basically, you helped your alliance by contributing to bringing it to the beaten state of affairs it finds itself in now?

The state of affairs the MCXA finds itself in now and where it was before the war was hugely due to the TSO split and to ignore or try to gloss over that fact is absolutely ridiculous. The OP outlines the actions taken in an attempt to reforge the MCXA after such a betrayal. Are some of these actions extreme? Yes. Could they be potentially damning? Yes. However, sometimes such actions are the only ones that can create real change for an alliance. Sometimes an alliance needs to be forged in fire and lost in darkness to once again find itself anew.

Where MCXA goes from here is completely up to their leadership (hopefully) working for the better interest of their people instead of the better interest of the NPO. I believe the phrase goes something like "The meat shields have become self aware", and nothing could be more true.

[joracy]

Well, this is an interesting thread.

All I'll say for now is Gatherum is a cuddly cuddly teddy bear indeed.

[Steelrat]

Speaking as someone who has built one alliance and who is currently building another, abandoning your creation and leaving it adrift without anyone capable at the helm is not an option. It's a coward's way out. If you are the creator and the leader, and the alliance is failing - it's not the alliance's fault. It's yours. Fix your mess. The reason MCXA has been a mess is because the people at the top tend to rule as if the alliance exists for them instead of vice-versa. Yes, I can think about how hard it would be to leave something I put so much time into. It would be so hard that you'd probably have to force me out the door (which happened, but I digress).

That´s a nice assist and it cries for an answer to portray you as a bad man, someone who can´t admit his faults or flaws but i´m not going that path.

Let me point you at something historians should be used to, there is no singular reason for an event in history, any event has multiple reasons and a foreplay.

Edited June 3, 2009 by Steelrat

[keltoi]

I can't believe i've taken 20 minutes out of my honeymoon to read this nonsense

frannie, if you would like to chat when i get back i'd be happy to, in the meantime, the last few posts i've seen of yours seem to be more about self promotion than anything. Perhaps i'm mistaken but i don't think so. I would ask you to look at the irony of the situation, you justify your own actions while denying TSO the same right to justify ours.

To all the various trolls, it isn't neccessary to spread lies about TSO, if you hate us that much come get some i wont fault you for trying to settle old scores if you have the guts to be honest about your motives.

Sammy and the rest of TSO, love you guys, i'll be back in a couple more weeks

disclaimer: the paper umbrella between my toes may be influencing my thought process

[Wu Tang Clan]

The state of affairs the MCXA finds itself in now and where it was before the war was hugely due to the TSO split and to ignore or try to gloss over that fact is absolutely ridiculous. The OP outlines the actions taken in an attempt to reforge the MCXA after such a betrayal. Are some of these actions extreme? Yes. Could they be potentially damning? Yes. However, sometimes such actions are the only ones that can create real change for an alliance. Sometimes an alliance needs to be forged in fire and lost in darkness to once again find itself anew.

Where MCXA goes from here is completely up to their leadership (hopefully) working for the better interest of their people instead of the better interest of the NPO. I believe the phrase goes something like "The meat shields have become self aware", and nothing could be more true.

I couldn't agree more.

You can blame Fram for being a traitor if you want. But in all honesty she's no more the traitor than any real MoFA. One who communicates the processes of an alliance in an attempt to forge friends. Just because you didn't like the friends she was making, just because Pacifica didn't like those friends, is no reason to figure her as the dismay of the alliance. A child abandoned tries to find a new niche and you blame it for that? Don't be absurd.

That being said, maybe too much info was leaked, if that's the case then so be it. But those of you who left MCXA for dead have no right to comment on the actions of such an individual. At least they tried to save the alliance, no matter if you view it as the right or wrong way. What did you do?

MCXA was a rotting corpse not because someone leaked information, I can promise you that. Hopefully now it is the hands of capable leaders who can turn it around. If not, I think they should take up a personal vendetta against those that left them in this state. Someday, someway, somehow, I hope we see accountability from this mess... I really do.

[Electron Sponge]

I can't believe i've taken 20 minutes out of my honeymoon to read this nonsense

...

......

.........

What the $%&@ are you doing on the internet

@Steelrat: Of course you're right that there's never a single cause for anything - as I mentioned when I was responding to Sam saying that 'it's too bad that this isn't a card game and simplistic analogies don't apply to complex situations.'

[Jens of the desert]

It's an internet game, you do whatever you need to or want to in order to enjoy it. If this means being hunted down, or ZI'd, so be it. As long as you had fun, or fulfilled what you believed to be right, that is all that matters.

[Teriethien]

So, could someone tell me just what sort of information did Francesca leak to attract so many condemnations of treason?

[Dragonaspect]

...

......

.........

What the $%&@ are you doing on the internet

I actually agreed with you oO

Congratulations Iggy

[Chickenzilla]

Francesca, its nice to see your reasons for working with Vox. I know how hard it is to work in the interest of your alliance when it seems that most of the rest of your alliance is working in their own best interest. Don't listen to any of these people crying out about how spying is imoral because most if not all of them have used spying on their own in the past for wars against other alliances.

Keep on keepin on Fran.