Memoirs: MCXA, Vox Populi, and the true meaning of loyalty.

[Baden-Württemberg]

I am stubborn, but I think your example here is flawed in that I did not play a major role in the Freedom of Information act drama, but was more of an observer (if I remember correctly. It was rather a long time ago.) I didn't sit in backrooms discussing anything at that point. Nor did I bully anyone into resigning at that point.

Maybe it wasn't you at that time, maybe it was someone else. It is too long ago. However you did exactly that later in your honorable political career.

I think what TSO did constitutes betrayal considering that you had a duty to look after and care for all the 700 members you recruited, who gave you their trust and loyalty.

People are not loyal to a leader but to an alliance. They didn't promise to defend me, but to defend Mexica. Everyone in the alliance has a responsibility to make sure that it runs smoothly. In my opinion every Member has the responsibility to be respectful to others. My duty was to take care of the 700 Members, but that doesn't mean that others can't do that duty as well. I am also a free person, and this is a game. As soon as it stops being fun for a while, you should reconsider your options.

"Although I don't have that message anymore, I don't think I adviced you to go into peace mode. I think I get trolled enough and people know I don't really care / mind. Thing is, that we were at war with Vox, and if you are at war with someone, it doesn't look good if you defend your "enemy"."

As I tried to explain to you, I wasn't defending their goals or even the morality behind their modus operandi, but rather commenting on their effectiveness. Also, I still have screenshots of your private messages, if you so desire I will put them up on the CNF in this thread.

Don't spin it please. I never said that you were defending their goals, I honestly don't remember what you defended. Still you defended them It happened in October 08?

"nc resigned a billion times, and every time he resigned he made a huge public attraction out of it, trying to play the cry baby card. I honestly don't remember why he resigned the first time, but I doubt it was the democracy vs. dictatorship debate. I think he insulted a few people such as a good friend of mind who spent some time in hospital. I think I was disgusted by the lack of respect shown by him towards other Members of the community, and I think I told him that."

That is not correct, he resigned on one occasion because KingEd violated the charter in punishing him. After he resigned, he never made any attempt to return.

Yeah, I remember him resigning from High Council once, I think a week later he resigned from all other duties?! Then, when he was impeached and ignored the deal we offered he was booted, so by ignoring the deal he de-facto resigned.

That is not correct, in fact people commented on how honourably I upheld myself in that thread. I did not lose my temper, and nor did I straight-out insult him.

I don't think we are talking about the same thread here.

"That is not quite right. We never wanted to leave the MCXA in anarchy, we wanted to give as much guidance as possible, and did everything to ensure that the turnover gets done smoothly."

If that was the case, you could have handled things much better. Instead, we had to install a transitional, or emergency, government.

I agree, we could have handled a few things differently and better, which is why we are paying 1.7 billion now (soon). But hey, I didn't spread the horror scenarios that caused many Members to leave, and I'd have agreed to stay for a month or longer if required to give them new government some time, but that wasn't wanted. The MCXA wanted to move on, so we moved on.

"Well, we have discussed that in an OOC channel for about 72 hours. At that time, we didn't have anything to present or tell. That would have come soon enough."

What about the Project 91 boards?

Were created by DA 48 hours before it was leaked. It wasn't a week old project or anything.

It was hardly recruitment, as I was not a member of those alliances, and I had no motivation to recruit for them.

It doesn't matter whether you are a Member of that alliance or not. We can also call it "moving members to other alliances with false propaganda".

"Certainly I didn't lie about my intentions to you. And well, you call it bullying. I was interested in a smooth transaction to the new government. People that recruited told MCXA Members to change their Alliance Affiliation didn't really help there. So yes, I was quite pissed off."

Both you and Celt claimed that the split-off alliance was not being formed.

No. It wouldn't have made sense, or helped us to lie about our intentions. As soon as it was a done deal, I certainly didn't deny it. I told logan1 the same, and on the following days he searched his logs up and down, trying to prove me wrong, but in the end he didn't find anything.

"The alliance you loved? Don't give me that."

Why not?

Because you tried to us it for your own political gain. You love yourself, and that's about it.

"I dealt with all these points. I even invited you in a conversation with Moo, so that you could tell him about your anti-NPO stance. However, nothing happened."

Yes, you were drunk at the time, I expressed my concerns about NpO's return to you, and as a result you said simply "join #samazing." I did so, and was shoved into a conversation with Moo and some other alliance leadership without any warning whatsoever. You then log dumped me without my permission and showed Moo and the rest of them that I didn't like or trust NPO. I don't hold this against you, because you were drunk at the time, and these things happen. Nevertheless, this was hardly an appropriate venue to answer my questions as I was extremely nervous and without any of my friends at my back I felt pretty exposed.

What? I don't remember what evening it was, but I am pretty certain that I was thinking straight and that I knew what I was doing. I am pretty sure, my typing was just as bad as always, and as long as that's the case, there is no need to worry.

That said, yes, you had concerns about the NPO and I thought the best man to respond to these is the leader of the NPO. He is not a monster, not a god, and not a cow, he is, you might have realized a normal player, and I am certain he'd have discussed all issues with you.

This was the best way, to ask him about his previous actions / opinions, to criticize him where it is necessary, and to discuss with him. I don't think that you need your friends to back you up, you are a big girl, you can defend your opinions on your own.

"I also dealt with the view of democracy, but I don't like people blackmailing me, etc. That said, the relationship with the NPO stayed unquestioned by 90% of our active Members. You are not the majority, although you sometimes think that you are."

I beg to differ. The majority of the active members were not pro-NPO. And when did I blackmail you at all?

If that were the case, no one in the MCXA government would have a chance to maintain these treaties. (theoretically yes, practically no)

And I am not talking specifically about you blackmailing me, I talk about the whole situation.

"We worked our asses off. And you know that. nc can tell you how much work it was, to create this program, make all the threads, message the people, message them again, deal with people that didn't want to listen etc. I messaged all the inactives with a (for every single one) personal message and hardly got any responses. Yes, it was sickening to deal with it, and it was hardly a mistake on our part. People lost interest in the game, and thus stopped caring."

You could have recruited some active members or dealt with the issue in other ways. Most alliances have inactivity problems, they deal with it.

That wouldn't have solved the problem of the reamining inactives. However, I think we always recruited good new and active players.

"Actually, we'd probably even signed something with the NPO, and NPO even offered us a treaty. However, thanks to the TSO isolation strategy of your friend nc, (among others), we never heard again of Triyun. So yeah, leaving that isn't really a valid point."

TSO isolation strategy? Please, tell me more.

Don't give me that, Fran. We all know the "Let's keep the TSO down" slogans. You do exactly know what I am talking about.

"Most of them were leaving because of the sickening atmosphere, created by a few"

Most of them left because MCXA no longer had a proper government, and it seemed likely we would disband.

And that is because most people who'd be capable of leading left because they were disgusted by the atmosphere created by a few.

"Yeah, and since you knew it better than anyone else, you had to go for it, and no matter what, force the MCXA to do something they don't want."

Not at all, the pro-Karma side had large numbers of supporters.

Which is why the Pro-Karma guy was elected Co-Chancellor.

Not.

"You dislike us for Fresh's opinions and activity level? Cool."

I really don't understand your comment here.

Well, it sounded like you blame us for Fresh's activity.

Thank you for a reasonable post, you just happen to be incorrect.

[nc1701]

It was my intention not to touch this thread with a ten foot pole, but seemingly it is about me as much as it is about Francesca or Vox_Populi, so I feel compelled to set a few facts straight.

I was dismayed to discover that MCXA’s government was planning on splitting off and forming their own alliance, leaving us in anarchy. They had not given us any warning of what they were planning. I told NC and my friends, and together we attempted to shift MCXA members into other alliances on a large scale

My BSometer just broke. That was Jenn Gone'Wild who informed us not you, I brought her to my channel where several people including you were briefed. When we took action it was planned out primarily by me, Jenn, and a third unnamed individual. Our plans were carried out primarily by Fran and several others since me and Jenn were not MCXA at the time, but Fran's role in that while important was not that of the brave leader marshaling the rest of us together but of an important piece of a whole acting on information gathered by Jenn and plans hatched primarily by Jenn and myself.

2: NC initiated the dramafest in my thread. Yes, I do love a good quarrel and I baited him on in all fairness, but through most of it (up until the end of it) I was level headed and laughing the whole thing off with how hard he was trying to make me look bad. All it would have taken is one of the Chancellors stepping up and saying to calm it down and I would have. In fact, Celt did do that and I obliged. He also demanded that NC either back up his accusations of pedophilia against me or retract them immediately. He has, to date, yet to retract or prove them.

Quite to the contrary I did express my regret for taking something further than it should have gone about two months ago, my apology was roundly rejected and you insulted me repeatedly

Logs: (edited for swearing, OOC content, and IPs)

23:38 *** TeefusChrist|TSO is now known as TFS|TSO

23:39 nc1701 Hey, I've been meaning to talk to you...

23:39 TFS|TSO good, keep on meaning

23:40 nc1701 I just wanted to apologize, I know I went further than I should have back in February

23:41 nc1701 I shouldn't have said anything OOC, and I'm truly sorry about that, I'm sure it doesn't mean anything to you though

23:45 *** nc1701 is now known as nc1701[MK]

23:47 TFS|TSO fine, you wanna talk? talk...

23:48 nc1701[MK] 23:40 nc1701 I just wanted to apologize, I know I went further than I should have back in February

23:48 nc1701[MK] 23:41 nc1701 I shouldn't have said anything OOC, and I'm truly sorry about that, I'm sure it doesn't mean anything to you though

23:48 TFS|TSO nope, not really

23:48 TFS|TSO my dislike of you goes beyond that one incident

23:48 nc1701[MK] I don't want you to like me

23:48 TFS|TSO oh good, we're on the same page then

23:49 nc1701[MK] ****, I still don't like you...

23:49 nc1701[MK] I just wanted to apologize for saying OOC things, because that was wrong no matter how much I dislike you IC

23:49 TFS|TSO oh, because I don't like you in either case regardless of that comment

23:51 TFS|TSO the thing is, nc, ever since I met you, you've been lying, stirring unnecessary trouble over things you know aren't real problems, and you've demonstrated a willingness to trample over anyone to get what you want

23:52 TFS|TSO and any time you do apologize or make amends, it's always reaked of insincerity to me

23:52 TFS|TSO and every time, it's been proven to be insincere by your actions soon after

23:52 TFS|TSO I have no reason to expect this to be anything but another lie and display of insincerity

23:52 nc1701[MK] I've done most of those things... IC there's nothing wrong with it any of that imo

23:53 TFS|TSO when you've been friends with some of the people you've done it to for as long as I have, or know them as well as I do, it bleeds over, kid

23:53 nc1701[MK] I'm just sorry for the one time I ever let myself turn a game debate into something OOC, though I understand why you won't accept my apology

23:54 TFS|TSO it's all been ooc to me

23:54 TFS|TSO even this here is just crawling with insincerity

23:54 TFS|TSO you've never cared about anyone beyond what they can do for you at the time

23:55 TFS|TSO and as soon as it's convenient for you, you drop them without any hesitation

23:55 TFS|TSO you have no loyalty but to yourself, and if you haven't figured it out, you're always going to run into the same problem trying to take control of alliances that you had in MCXA

23:56 TFS|TSO because no one in control of an alliance, corrupt or uncorrupt, is going to sit by and just let someone else move in and take over like you try to

23:57 *** TFS|TSO is now known as Teefus_Christ|TSO

23:58 nc1701[MK] Well, I don't think I have dropped people quite like you say, but yes I have always been eager to move

23:58 Teefus_Christ|TSO nc, you're a user

23:58 Teefus_Christ|TSO you've always been a user

23:58 nc1701[MK] But of course when Ivan Moldavi does it it's genuis, when nc does it it makes him scum...etc.

23:58 Teefus_Christ|TSO I never expressed any opinion of Ivan

23:59 Teefus_Christ|TSO I don't have one of him

23:59 nc1701[MK] I'm speaking in general

23:59 nc1701[MK] But point taken

23:59 Teefus_Christ|TSO well all I can speak of in here is my experience with you

23:59 Teefus_Christ|TSO and it sucks

23:59 Teefus_Christ|TSO how old are you?

00:00 nc1701[MK] (my OOC age removed)

00:00 Teefus_Christ|TSO ok

00:00 Teefus_Christ|TSO you realize most of the people you went up against in MCXA prior to the split were all adults that, in their fields, are considered to be among the smartest people, right?

00:01 Teefus_Christ|TSO (OOC information about prominent MCXA government members)

00:01 nc1701[MK] Of course, that's what made it challenging, that's what made it fun for me....

00:01 Teefus_Christ|TSO most alliance leaders fit that description to a degree

00:01 Teefus_Christ|TSO you won't get near as far trying to coup anyone like that as you will just playing by the rules and being a part of the alliance team

00:02 nc1701[MK] I never tried to coup anyone TFS

00:02 Teefus_Christ|TSO you did with us

00:02 Teefus_Christ|TSO I know you won't admit it because you don't want logs to be used against you

00:02 Teefus_Christ|TSO but you know it and I know it

00:03 Teefus_Christ|TSO it's the only reason anyone could ever have for trying so hard to spread discontent among an alliance against a leadership that he admits is not comprised of bad people

00:05 nc1701[MK] I spread discontent where it was warranted, I told the GA they were lied to when they were, I wanted a different MCXA, but that doesn't mean I wanted to be King myself

00:05 Teefus_Christ|TSO yes it does

00:06 Teefus_Christ|TSO half the **** you ever started had no reason behind it

00:06 Teefus_Christ|TSO and until you can admit that, we have nothing else to talk about

00:07 nc1701[MK] Alright then, good day and good luck in the coming global war.

00:07 Teefus_Christ|TSO eat a fat one, and have a good night

4: NC's words were that I should be on To Catch a Predator and that former Senator Foley wasn't as bad as I am...all over me telling you to f*** off. There was no misunderstanding about what he was accusing me of. Your continuing to spin this BS is just pathetic.

To be clear, I have never made sexual advances on anyone more than 2 years younger than myself. All of my sexual partners have all been over 20. I have not even ever been pulled over, let alone any charge of a sexual predator nature on my record. I'm in the US military and such a black mark would have ended my military career long ago. I do not take such accusations lightly, and I would not expect anyone else to do so either. The fact that such a thing was ever used as a means of political defamation in this game disgusts me, and I want this to never be mentioned again. This kind of thing could have a detrimental affect on my real-life career and needs to end now, as it should have never been started.

I said nothing about To Catch a Predator, nor did I ever call you a predator or pedophile. The only word I ever used was "inappropriate", it was you who made the jump to pedophile. I said I thought that the things you had said to a minor (not divulging Fran's OOC age) were inappropriate for a member of government to be saying, and later I said that saying inappropriate things to a minor was what they nailed Foley with. My implication being that Foley did not break OOC laws, but his actions were definitely inappropriate for members of government to be making so he resigned in disgrace, despite never being charged with pedophilia etc. TFS similarly had said things to his members that were inappropriate coming from a member of government for similar reasons (sexual content).

I think someone else (idr who) thought it would be funny to post a pic of the guy from To Catch a Predator when he saw our posts, but it was quickly removed and not related to me in any way.

nc resigned a billion times, and every time he resigned he made a huge public attraction out of it, trying to play the cry baby card. I honestly don't remember why he resigned the first time, but I doubt it was the democracy vs. dictatorship debate. I think he insulted a few people such as a good friend of mind who spent some time in hospital. I think I was disgusted by the lack of respect shown by him towards other Members of the community, and I think I told him that.

I resigned once, on April 13th 2009.

I did resign once from my position in Milcom in September 2008 as a way to bring attention to the rampant inactivity, and I resigned once from the High Council in January in protest of the way things were done and (ironically) because you demanded that I resign.

18:03 sam[mcxa] nc

18:03 nc1701 yes sam?

18:03 sam[mcxa] Let's make a deal.

18:03 sam[mcxa] I send you evidence, that this part isn't true:

18:03 sam[mcxa] he conflict of interest is quite simple. As long as you can keep Olo from being impeached you are essentially the sole Chancellor with no checks on your powers. As soon as we go through with an impeachment, a new CC would be appointed forcing you to share power with them as Co-Chancellors. As such it looks somewhat improper to have you here constantly throwing up reasons we should not go ahead with an impeachment. Rather by design or

18:03 sam[mcxa] and you resign from High Council.

18:03 sam[mcxa] How does that sound?

18:03 nc1701 No

18:03 nc1701 If I resign I do it on my own terms

18:04 sam[mcxa] meh. It was a try worth it.

18:04 nc1701 lol

After that I did choose to resign my commission as a High Councilor because I couldn't be an effective government member if sam didn't want me there. And by resigning I could bring attention to these abuses.

But I have only resigned from the MCXA once, precisely the number of times you have sam.

I think the problem wasn't the Freedom of Information Amendment, it was the completely unacceptable manner this Amendment was proposed. I mean, don't you think it is weired that (I think it was Oligarch) made another, more kind thread, and the Amendment (even with Grinders help) passed. You never asked, you never discussed, you requested. And these requests had to be fullfilled, and if someone disagreed with you, you guys started sitting in backrooms, bullying these people until they resigned. You basically prove my point in this thread, you admit that you are stubborn, and people realized that you'd take every path to achieve your goals.

The original was proposed by Daedalus27 and TIinPA it resulted in a great deal of fighting which I participated in, later I talked it over with Grinder (TFS) and we eventually came to an uneasy compromise that resulted in ending that fighting and giving us the amendment still in MCXA's Charter (written by me and extensively edited by Daedalus27 and Grinder)

I think those are the major factual innacuracies that directly relate to me. Hopefully that covers it and you can all go discuss Fran, Vox, and spying instead of me.

As for my reply to the OP I think this whole memoirs thing is overblown, for a relatively minor spy... It sort of reeks of the way former Bush people all got book deals, and certainly shows a great deal of ego. But as for her actions Francesca was, and remains a very dear friend of mine. I don't approve of her spying, but I do understand how she justified it and I do sympathize with that logic. At the same time I can understand why others do not, and overall that's why I really want no part in this thread. I have separated my feelings, and while I'm angry as a former MCXA member I can also understand her and support her as a friend, for people who don't know her personally though I don't begrudge you being angry.

[Grinder]

tbh, normally when I see walls of text from multiple people defending something I normally just assume that the allegations are true, because in most cases, there is a lot of truth to them if they are so provocative that they inspire several walls of text.

That is as ignorant as someone saying they assume the allegations are false since they are so provocative that they inspire several walls of text.

Try reading all sides of the story instead of just the first one you come across, you'll learn something, I promise. Otherwise you're denying yourself some valuable insight.

[SunnyInc]

There's one problem with this assessment. The DoE was never meant to happen as it did. The original plan, as I understand it was to have each government member vacate their offices in a staggered manner to allow an over-all smooth transition of new people into office with the old people still present to help them learn the ropes and processes, and as that happened, they would all then splinter off, either all at once or individually, into TSO.

Then we were going to seek to have some sort of treaty with several of those we had while in MCXA, including MCXA itself. Maybe one protectorate and the rest economic agreements to benefit both parties involved, I dunno.

However circumstances got out of our hands and things leaked and a couple people (one in particular who, in this thread, claims to have nothing but the welfare of MCXA at heart) started screaming bloody murder and for everyone in MCXA to run off to other alliances before it's too late. How that was supposed to benefit MCXA to have even more than the 30 TSO members split off, I will never understand, but maybe some day Fran can make a thread explaining that jacked up logic...interestingly she stuck around and started running for office while MCXA was in a heavily weakened state and seems to have had no trouble amassing quite the collection of job titles in a short amount of time.

Then our DoE was posted and...yeah...I try to forget that mistake. But it pretty much burned any remaining bridges for new treaties to old friends we hoped to have.

Well put, Teefus. It is also probably worth mentioning that originally, only a small group of members were planning to leave MCXA and move on to The Order of the Paradox where they intended to take a back seat in alliance affairs. The idea of forming a splinter alliance was only conceived when they were met with an overwhelming amount of support from close friends and loyal supporters. What I want to know is if it is Sam's fault that he was so well liked and respected that forty people were willing to follow him to oblivion and beyond?

Edited June 3, 2009 by SunnyInc

[enderland]

That is as ignorant as someone saying they assume the allegations are false since they are so provocative that they inspire several walls of text.

Try reading all sides of the story instead of just the first one you come across, you'll learn something, I promise. Otherwise you're denying yourself some valuable insight.

If what you have been saying is true, Francesca has a rather large ego and somehow, I do not think fanning that ego by making a simple thread into a large discussion that is already 6 pages long is goign to help any.

It is no different than how people clamored on for pages about how vox was irrelevant and such; if that was the case then no one would have had to respond or even care.

It seems obvious that Francesca overreacts, by both the stuff in this thread and the way this thread has evolved, but you have to ask yourself: what do you, and more importantly, your alliance gain by arguing with someone who is "never wrong" or whatever the random log someone brought in said? Nothing.

[Francesca]

It was my intention not to touch this thread with a ten foot pole, but seemingly it is about me as much as it is about Francesca or Vox_Populi, so I feel compelled to set a few facts straight.

My BSometer just broke. That was Jenn Gone'Wild who informed us not you, I brought her to my channel where several people including you were briefed. When we took action it was planned out primarily by me, Jenn, and a third unnamed individual. Our plans were carried out primarily by Fran and several others since me and Jenn were not MCXA at the time, but Fran's role in that while important was not that of the brave leader marshaling the rest of us together but of an important piece of a whole acting on information gathered by Jenn and plans hatched primarily by Jenn and myself.

I was the person who originally contacted Jenn about what happened, had her explain it to me and persuaded you to invite her into our channel to discuss it more and tell us more about it.

As for my reply to the OP I think this whole memoirs thing is overblown, for a relatively minor spy... It sort of reeks of the way former Bush people all got book deals, and certainly shows a great deal of ego. But as for her actions Francesca was, and remains a very dear friend of mine. I don't approve of her spying, but I do understand how she justified it and I do sympathize with that logic. At the same time I can understand why others do not, and overall that's why I really want no part in this thread. I have separated my feelings, and while I'm angry as a former MCXA member I can also understand her and support her as a friend, for people who don't know her personally though I don't begrudge you being angry.

Thank you, NC. Not an easy thing to say.

[Baden-Württemberg]

After that I did choose to resign my commission as a High Councilor because I couldn't be an effective government member if sam didn't want me there. And by resigning I could bring attention to these abuses.

Yes, I am sorry that I was angered that people start to criticize someone who is in a hospital for inactivity. You claimed that I can use this since I am the only God-like Emperor in the alliance left, because of the lack of control. Which isn't quite true since CC's responsibility wasn't to control each other, but to cooperate. The Controlling was done by the Members and I wasn't immune.

That said, I have never treated you unfairly, so you do know very well, that we could have continued our job together. There were many HC Members I didn't like throughout the year, but still, I tried to work with them as much as possible. So yeah, the only reason you posted that, was to get some PR and some attention.

[Augustus Autumn]

Despite those who say there is no value in explanations, I found this an interesting read and a chance to gain some insight which may prove useful in the future. While I cannot agree with some of the actions taken, I appreciate that you took the time to put this out in the open and prompt this discussion. Thank you, and best of luck.

[Francesca]

"People are not loyal to a leader but to an alliance. They didn't promise to defend me, but to defend Mexica. Everyone in the alliance has a responsibility to make sure that it runs smoothly. In my opinion every Member has the responsibility to be respectful to others. My duty was to take care of the 700 Members, but that doesn't mean that others can't do that duty as well. I am also a free person, and this is a game. As soon as it stops being fun for a while, you should reconsider your options."

You were an integral part of our alliance, and thus people should be loyal to you. Furthermore, if people weren't loyal to you, then why did they all leave to form TSO with you?

"Don't spin it please. I never said that you were defending their goals, I honestly don't remember what you defended. Still you defended them It happened in October 08?"

I notice you didn't give me permission to post screenshots.

"I agree, we could have handled a few things differently and better, which is why we are paying 1.7 billion now (soon). But hey, I didn't spread the horror scenarios that caused many Members to leave, and I'd have agreed to stay for a month or longer if required to give them new government some time, but that wasn't wanted. The MCXA wanted to move on, so we moved on."

If you had told us the truth regarding your decision to form TSO, perhaps I might not have believed some of the rumour that sprang up around the incident. However, given the information that I had, I acted in a very upright and honourable manner.

"Were created by DA 48 hours before it was leaked. It wasn't a week old project or anything."

They were still used to discuss the formation of your splinter alliance, despite counter-claims from your government members (e.g. Lakie) who said it was merely a backup forum.

"No. It wouldn't have made sense, or helped us to lie about our intentions. As soon as it was a done deal, I certainly didn't deny it. I told logan1 the same, and on the following days he searched his logs up and down, trying to prove me wrong, but in the end he didn't find anything."

Would you like me to log dump you? I will do so, with your permission.

"Because you tried to us it for your own political gain. You love yourself, and that's about it."

I did not do this for my own gain. I was already the MoFA of a sanctioned alliance of 700 members, what more did I need?

"I don't remember what evening it was, but I am pretty certain that I was thinking straight and that I knew what I was doing. I am pretty sure, my typing was just as bad as always, and as long as that's the case, there is no need to worry.

That said, yes, you had concerns about the NPO and I thought the best man to respond to these is the leader of the NPO. He is not a monster, not a god, and not a cow, he is, you might have realized a normal player, and I am certain he'd have discussed all issues with you."

You gave me no advanced warning of what you had in mind and I was put on the spot. I had no desire to remain in that chan any longer than necessary, I just wanted to get out. As for your drunkenness, perhaps you remember "Fran's been taken in by Vox propaganda.... Pansy, where's the medicamentation?" You also claimed at several times to be under the influence of alcohol.

As for Moo..... as a matter of fact, my opinion of him has risen slightly recently, as I fought him in war and found him to be a very honourable and light-humoured opponent, even when we sent him to ZI, and I thoroughly enjoyed fighting him.

"This was the best way, to ask him about his previous actions / opinions, to criticize him where it is necessary, and to discuss with him. I don't think that you need your friends to back you up, you are a big girl, you can defend your opinions on your own."

Its not so that they can help me argue, I am perfectly capable of doing that alone. Its for the moral support and encouragement that being with friends gives you.

"That wouldn't have solved the problem of the reamining inactives. However, I think we always recruited good new and active players."

Not enough then. Also, you did a pretty good job of isolating your active members.

"Don't give me that, Fran. We all know the "Let's keep the TSO down" slogans. You do exactly know what I am talking about."

We didn't exactly love TSO after you left, but there was no campaign to keep TSO politically isolated. You chose that out of your own free will.

"And that is because most people who'd be capable of leading left because they were disgusted by the atmosphere created by a few."

No, you couldn't deal with the opposing viewpoint of others in your alliance, yet you claim to advocate freedom of speech.

"Which is why the Pro-Karma guy was elected Co-Chancellor."

KingEd had been a proactive member in helping to recreate our boards after we were hacked, among other things. He was a worthy opponent to NC, and yes, he won. However, you will note that he was not hugely pro-NPO at that time. NC had not had the opportunity to contribute to the alliance in that way, like Ed did. Pity Ed's activity levels dropped later on.

"Well, it sounded like you blame us for Fresh's activity."

I blame Fresh for Fresh's activity.

With that, I will go to sleep. It's late here.... or early.

Edited June 3, 2009 by Francesca

[Haflinger]

This whole thread is really confusing to me.

The net effect is a strengthening of my dislike of the practice of democracy in Cybernations. Election threads where people tell each other to $%&@ off and compare others to disgraced RL politicians - well, I doubt I would've lasted long in that kind of environment.

Note however that Mark Foley, however scummy he might be, is not a felon.

Anyway, my opinion of all of the people who've posted in this thread has either remained the same or declined. Treason appears to have been something of a common recreational pastime in the MCXA.

[Dragonaspect]

I will not engage in the discussion within this thread, simply because I happen to respect the MCXA and do not want to involve them while they are busy rebuilding and used to like and respect Francesca.

But I just wanted to adress the DoE and our split-off, once again, being the one who is largely responsible for it.

The DoE in the way it happened was never supposed to happen and it is my fault that it happened, could I turn back time I would probably change it, but I cannot, so we will have to deal with the cards we were given by fate and coincidence.

Francesca, I like you (ooc at the very least), yet I find spying largely distasteful.

The difference between us and you was that when we no longer liked the direction the alliance (mainly internally, as in atmosphere) was going, left it for the alliance to go it's own way, while you spied from within it trying to "change" things, I for one was closely considering quitting the game when I first heard of the idea of TSO.

The TSO idea was really only about 3 days old when it was leaked, I dont know wether the P91 boards got deleted yet, but their creation date should point to that fact

Edited June 3, 2009 by Dragonaspect

[TheEraser]

considering MCXA has used spies in the past to get what they want, i could care less that they got spied on return.

reaping/sowing, etc. etc. etc.

[astronaut jones]

Spying is awesome.

Sincerely,

Astronaut Jones.

[The Doctor]

All i know is that Fran is a lovely human being who really couldn't be nicer (i my experience anyway) and it makes me sad too see so many bitter people attacking her for actions she clearly believed we're for the good of her alliance.

So go ahead ladies and gentlemen spew your vitriol, but know that in the end you will still be bitter and that she can sleep well knowing she did what she thought was right.

Yep, we really do love Fran

[Electron Sponge]

Spying is awesome.

Sincerely,

Astronaut Jones.

We must have looked like tiny little ants to you while we were spying.

[Lord Caspian]

Those of you declaring this to be a baseless PR move should know that Fran wins herself no favors by making this post.

I respect you for what you've done Fran, and I find that if I had to believe one side it would be yours. I can understand how you saw Vox as an avenue to pursue but I find it incredibly regrettable that you felt you were forced down that path as a last resort.

[astronaut jones]

We must have looked like tiny little ants to you while we were spying.

Man, I got telescopes, infrared beams, some quantum stuff that I don't even know how it works, made it all easy. I got so many tools on this spaceship, half of them I don't even know what they do.

[Fort Pitt]

good read, interesting to hear the other side of the story

[SleepiB]

The drama and power disputes stemming from a very small group of people(2 to 5) may well be the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. The chronic inactivity, apathy, and willful ignorance of the GA instilled by long standing lax entrance requirements (a problem this war created an opportunity to ameliorate), was what pushed our will to be expressed in the formation of a new alliance instead of the expulsion of a few power hungry drama queens with ulterior motives. Of those who remained at MCXA when TSO formed, I can count on three fingers those who were active, competent, and cared about the alliance more than their ulterior motives; these are the people I feel bad about leaving behind.

Our loyalty is to each other, not to any ideal, not to the flag we fly, nor the AA we use as an avatar. This was always true, long before there was a thought of forming a new alliance, it was the basis of our culture.

(OT) One more thing I want to clear up: There was no indication of war when we left MCXA, we did not leave MCXA to save our infra. In fact we offered to continue defending MCXA without attaching strings, an offer which was declined.

[Ephriam Grey]

Fran, I took a good hour or two out of my day dealing with an IRC spat on this subject between you and SunnyInc. I spoke at length with both you and SunnyInc, tracked down TSO government, and got everything all nice and settled. I directly asked you to not aggravate this subject, and you told me you wouldn't.

I'm disappointed that you decided to bring this to the OWF.

EDIT: I've requested VE government prohibit VE members from posting in this thread, Fran, I'd ask that you please hold off posting till they make a call on that.

Edited June 3, 2009 by Ephriam Grey

[Sooner]

And now as a VE government member, I ask all VE members including Fran to cease posting in this thread. Failure to do so will result in actions being taken by the alliance against the poster.

[Schattenmann]

5: you're ridiclous, and this martyrdom tour of yours isn't going to work. You're not smart enough at all to pull this off, Fran. There's no way you orchestrated all of this crap like you claim to be some huge mastermind. Otherwise, you'd post logs and screenshots to prove it instead of just claim it.

Hey, buddy, looks like the Senate of Vox POpuli is in full disagreement with you on that one. Fran may not care to go to all the trouble of posting what would amount to a volume of logs, but I've seen them, 5 other people have seen them, they're there, and this account is true to them. Fran is certainly more intelligent than you, and clever too.

Outsourcing your FA policy to Vox was a super way of doing what was best for MCXA not like they would have had any agenda of their own...

The super evil agenda: "Pull large alliances out of NPO's sphere of control without getting them destroyed so that the hegemony is dismantled while the alliances are not." TRUE EVIL!

Spying is not done. Ever.

Furthermore you come off as rather simplistic. The reasoning for spying, how to name the treaty with VE, etc. On top of that you seem selfish and stubborn.

How is spying worse than all the anti-NPO propaganda that FOK was producing in reams while still allied to NPO? Don't forget, we saw that, too.

You've expressed this attitude towards NPO, and now towards TOP based solely on where they sit on the stats boards in-game as opposed to their actions and politics.

Calling tOP a "world power"--and they are--does not express negativity toward them.

You really are displaying signs of megalomania.

Thanks, Dr. Grinder. I'm sure we can take that diagnosis to the bank. hurrrrrr.

One does not show IC love/affection for an alliance, or however you want to describe "alliance loyalty," by plotting behind the alliance. One does not show loyalty by trying to enact a mild coup to gain control. One does not show loyalty by spying.

Forming what amounted to a political party in a democratic alliance in order to organize voting and campaign efforts is not a coup, not even a "mild coup." Defining it as such only serves to show the need for it.

Fran, you have no idea about TSO and their reasons. You may try to honestly talk to Sam, Celt or Dragon. I know it´s hard as they have no reason to trust you and vice versa. You may have a glimpse of an idea what happened back then but you clearly have no idea of the motivation and reasons the latter TSO had.

From what i read in your summary you scratched only the surface of anything especially of global politics.

So what you're saying is that your old buddies gave you their version of why they left, the one that doesn't sound bad, and you believe that one. You don't have to hide it.

Fran, I took a good hour or two out of my day dealing with an IRC spat on this subject between you and SunnyInc. I spoke at length with both you and SunnyInc, tracked down TSO government, and got everything all nice and settled. I directly asked you to not aggravate this subject, and you told me you wouldn't.

I'm disappointed that you decided to bring this to the OWF.

Logs.

[Schattenmann]

And now as a VE government member, I ask all VE members including Fran to cease posting in this thread. Failure to do so will result in actions being taken by the alliance against the poster.

Welcome to the Open World RP forum, it is out of character. You are John Doe of Loft-Over-Parents'-Garagia, not a member of the VE gov't. I am John Doe of Someone's-Basementland, not Schattenmann.

By the way, just kick Fran out instead of threatening, it doesn't look as silly.

[Bodvar Jarl]

So basically, you helped your alliance by contributing to bringing it to the beaten state of affairs it finds itself in now?

You should have been able to see that was what you did, to me it looks like you put your own desire ahead of what was best for everyone else in MCXA.

[Dragonaspect]

Forming what amounted to a political party in a democratic alliance in order to organize voting and campaign efforts is not a coup, not even a "mild coup." Defining it as such only serves to show the need for it.

This is where you are wrong. Forming parties was strictly forbidden within the MCXA, thus it does actually amount to a "mild coup".

The HC elections at the MCXA were personal elections, you did not get elected for some party you stood for, but for you alone.