Memoirs: MCXA, Vox Populi, and the true meaning of loyalty.

[Francesca]

Oh, guh-roan...

1: the comments I made to you were OOC in a private conversation with me expressing anger at you for your ignorance regarding Veteran's Day and occurred MONTHS prior to the events you're describing without any incident between you and I afterward, IC or OOC.

I went to Sam with the issue, and he discouraged me strongly from bringing impeachment processes against you. I knew that there was an old boys crowd in MCXA, indeed, Sam even outlined his personal history with you via private message. I didn't have the balls to go against the incrowd of people at that time. It took me some time to realise that I had nothing to be afraid of.

Before you

2: NC initiated the dramafest in my thread. Yes, I do love a good quarrel and I baited him on in all fairness, but through most of it (up until the end of it) I was level headed and laughing the whole thing off with how hard he was trying to make me look bad.

For the first part of the thread, yes you were level-headed, all credit to you for that. I never denied it.

3: I was never forced to end my campaign. I chose to because I was tired of how bogged down it was. My friends in government admitted no wrong on my part prior to me leaving MCXA. It was 2 people I still consider acquantances that did ACCUSED me of wrong doing and admitted to doing so without having read the thread. Both have since admitted that had they taken the time to read it instead of assume that yes, they would still not be pleased with me egging NC on, but that they would not have refused to do something about his behavior until the next week. That refusal to act until after the election was what made me decide to resign form MCXA, as there was no need to wait. It had nothing to do with the government not backing me or my actions.

You were forced to end it by the circumstances. And the two acquaintances you are referring to were government members.

4: NC's words were that I should be on To Catch a Predator and that former Senator Foley wasn't as bad as I am...all over me telling you to f*** off. There was no misunderstanding about what he was accusing me of. Your continuing to spin this BS is just pathetic.

Incorrect, he never said anything about "To Catch a Predator" as far as I remember. What he did say is that making sexual comments in a message to a minor was the same evidence they nailed Foley with, I believe. I am not trying to spin anything, I am simply stating facts.

To be clear, I have never made sexual advances on anyone more than 2 years younger than myself. All of my sexual partners have all been over 20. I have not even ever been pulled over, let alone any charge of a sexual predator nature on my record. I'm in the US military and such a black mark would have ended my military career long ago. I do not take such accusations lightly, and I would not expect anyone else to do so either. The fact that such a thing was ever used as a means of political defamation in this game disgusts me, and I want this to never be mentioned again. This kind of thing could have a detrimental affect on my real-life career and needs to end now, as it should have never been started.

Any posts by anyone trying to assert or imply that I am guilty of such things will be reported to the mods for what I think are obvious reasons.

I never accused you of paedophilia, you have either misread my post or are attempting to twist what I said.

5: you're ridiclous, and this martyrdom tour of yours isn't going to work. You're not smart enough at all to pull this off, Fran. There's no way you orchestrated all of this crap like you claim to be some huge mastermind. Otherwise, you'd post logs and screenshots to prove it instead of just claim it.

But that's all you ever did was make claims. Anytime I've ever asked you for proof of anything, you always dodged proving it. That's how we all knew you were nothing special and way too klutzy to be of real consequence like you claim.

The only time you asked me for logs before was relating to the TSO crisis, when I had given my word to protect Jenn'GoneWild, who told me information regarding the TSO split. That was why I refused to give you logs.

"worked up the courage" my a**...lying and spying and violating oaths of loyalty negate any claim to courage you could ever make.

I have already explained why I don't consider myself to have been disloyal to MCXA. In addition, it took a great deal of courage to spy. If I had been caught, I faced expulsion and ZI.

You and NC have mighty high opinions of yourselves. Word of caution: anyone I have ever known to try and play people like you to do always get theirs 10-fold. I'm not threatening you at all. I'm just saying one day you'll each try to play the wrong person and however the backlash affects you is going to be hard to recover from. Good luck when it does hit you. You'll need it.

There are aspects to my story that do not portray me in a positive light, yet I have included them all. I don't see how you conclude that I think that I am wonderful. However, yes, I am proud of many of my actions. I believe I have a right to be so. I am sure there are things you have done that you are proud of too..... or at least, one can hope.

[Sileath]

I enjoyed reading your memoirs. I wasn't there first hand during your spying exploits, so I won't judge. I probably wouldn't judge anyway, since I don't oppose spying.

Keep it real.

[Francesca]

You know nothing of loyalty except to self.

If I was acting in self-interest, I was already the Minister of Foreign Affairs for a large, sanctioned alliance, yet I risked ZI for being a member of an alliance of 30 people who were never going to rule the game. Does that speak of self-interest, mhawk?

You've lost me here, so you're saying you initiated it all by becoming a spy?

The fact remains you couldn't change the alliance you swore loyalty to into the image you wanted through conventional means so you became a spy and a traitor in order to try and realise those goals, even with the use of backroom plotting and spying you failed to realise your goals and twist the foreign policy to your own desires so you left. Classy.

That seems a pretty accurate summary, no?

What initiated it, originally, was that there were two factions in MCXA. Following on from that, I thought that I could tilt the balance by going to Vox, and I failed.

You spied because MCXA wouldn't want to go your way, thats just lame Fran, while you are nice to chat with on IRC, the !@#$ you pulled off is just !@#$%^&*, greater good? By what by turning sides like that? With what reason? Save MCXA's infra?

Sorry I just don't like spying and I don't like what you did, even though I don't like MCXA what you did wasn't correct however you try to say or prove it.

Sorry,

-Keshav

I am sorry you think that Keshav, but my respect for you rose because of your post, nonetheless. I respect it when people are consistent about their beliefs. However, I should add that I didn't want MCXA to move to Karma to save our pixels, but for moral reasons.

Edited June 3, 2009 by Francesca

[JayOvfEnnay]

When it comes down to it spying is just another part of the game. It's been used by NPO to twist it further into their grasp and by Vox to pull it away. Some good reasons, and some not so good reasons. However it's a tactic. If I find a spy in my alliance that guy will face punishment. The alliance at fault will face punishment as well, but it'll never be a move in the game that I despise. Ever. It's a !@#$@#$ strategic move in the game. It happens in real life too. Get over it people.

[Meer Republic]

What initiated it, originally, was that there were two factions in MCXA. Following on from that, I thought that I could tilt the balance by going to Vox, and I failed.

So there were 2 factions in a democratically elected government, you didn't agree with one so you chose to attempt to subvert the more popular one, that you personally didn't follow, by spying and treachery? When it didn't work you left?

I'm really struggling to see what your motivation was other than wanting to get your own way regardless of what the rest of the alliance wanted.

[Francesca]

So there were 2 factions in a democratically elected government, you didn't agree with one so you chose to attempt to subvert the more popular one, that you personally didn't follow, by spying and treachery? When it didn't work you left?

I'm really struggling to see what your motivation was other than wanting to get your own way regardless of what the rest of the alliance wanted.

You are incorrect..... the pro-Karma side was more numerous at one point among the active membership.

[leprecon]

So there were 2 factions in a democratically elected government, you didn't agree with one so you chose to attempt to subvert the more popular one, that you personally didn't follow, by spying and treachery? When it didn't work you left?

I'm really struggling to see what your motivation was other than wanting to get your own way regardless of what the rest of the alliance wanted.

Tbh, you can hardly label MCXA's internal troubles as just normal party politics.

[Meer Republic]

You are incorrect..... the pro-Karma side was more numerous at one point among the active membership.

Surely then you could have dealt with this without spying using methods available in your charter, assuming you had an active majority as you say you did?

[Francesca]

Surely then you could have dealt with this without spying using methods available in your charter, assuming you had an active majority as you say you did?

It wasn't a huge majority, and I realised that I would need to work hard in order to see MCXA take the right pathway nonetheless.

[shakes]

Spying is not done. Ever.

Furthermore you come off as rather simplistic. The reasoning for spying, how to name the treaty with VE, etc. On top of that you seem selfish and stubborn.

[Francesca]

Spying is not done. Ever.

Furthermore you come off as rather simplistic. The reasoning for spying, how to name the treaty with VE, etc. On top of that you seem selfish and stubborn.

I'm hardly unintelligent, or I would not have survived for months as a spy. How am I selfish?

As for being stubborn, I can hardly deny it.

[Chief Savage Man]

Surely then you could have dealt with this without spying using methods available in your charter, assuming you had an active majority as you say you did?

Having had access to Eli's information, I can tell you that she couldn't have. The majority was being suppressed by the old guard, who found democracy inconvenient. Lots of alliances in this game have found democracy inconvenient and slowly started ignoring it. For all of you people who say that she is just a scummy spy, I can also tell you there is a lot that Eli wouldn't tell us. We only knew the basics of what was going on. Actually, we are learning a little bit in this post, after the fact. Spies who spy for greed or revenge will tell all immediately. Eli, having seen how Vox Populi can publicize issues and provoke discussion about them, chose this path to air her grievances as the paths her alliance provided her turned out to be false. It is a unique and controversial way to do it but it does work.

[Meer Republic]

It wasn't a huge majority, and I realised that I would need to work hard in order to see MCXA take the right pathway nonetheless.

So you weren't confident you had a majority?

Rather than 'working hard' you chose to spy? Or is the spying the hard work in question?

It should be clear i don't agree with your methods but I hope you don't take my questioning as an attack, i'm merely trying to understand your motivation.

Edited June 3, 2009 by Meercats

[Jgoods45]

I enjoyed reading your memoirs. I wasn't there first hand during your spying exploits, so I won't judge. I probably wouldn't judge anyway, since I don't oppose spying.

Keep it real.

lolwut, I'm watching you

Also, Interesting read. Good Luck and all that.

[Francesca]

So you weren't confident you had a majority?

Rather than 'working hard' you chose to spy? Or is the spying the hard work in question?

1) I was confident in the majority, but as it was not a large one it could be suppressed by the old guard described in CSM's post.

2) Spying is the hard work in question.

[Grinder]

I went to Sam with the issue, and he discouraged me strongly from bringing impeachment processes against you. I knew that there was an old boys crowd in MCXA, indeed, Sam even outlined his personal history with you via private message. I didn't have the balls to go against the incrowd of people at that time. It took me some time to realise that I had nothing to be afraid of.

And as I told you long ago, I would have encouraged you to press the charges. I never sought special treatment and I never gave it just because of longterm friendship. My neck was on the chopping block plenty of times and came close to getting the ax on most of those occasions. Ask Fresh, more often than not he had a hand in putting my neck there to be chopped.

As far as I was concerned, there was no incrowd like you keep whining about. I never catered to any such thing anyway. We always had anywhere between 1 and 5 new members to High Council after each election that had never been elected before. To suggest an incrowd with those turn-over rates is simply sad.

For the first part of the thread, yes you were level-headed, all credit to you for that. I never denied it.

I don't need credit from those who lack credibility.

You were forced to end it by the circumstances. And the two acquaintances you are referring to were government members.

But not my friends like you claimed in your OP. Be more specific next time, saying I was simply forced to end it and then going straight into detailing a conflict between me and other gov members implies the gov forced me to end it.

Furthermore, doesn't a conflict between me and people that were supposedly my friends contradict your silly notion of an incrowd? Get your story straight, Fran. Either they had my back or they didn't.

Incorrect, he never said anything about "To Catch a Predator" as far as I remember. What he did say is that making sexual comments in a message to a minor was the same evidence they nailed Foley with, I believe. I am not trying to spin anything, I am simply stating facts.

I specifically remember the To Catch a Predator comment by him was what initially made me lose my temper. I made no sexual comment to you, though, so the comparison to Foley was either him being extremely ignorant of the versatility of the F word and he was legitimately trying to stretch me telling you to go f*** yourself into meaning I was trying to make a sexual advance on you, or he was making a reference to a disgraced politician that made no sense given the connection he was trying to draw...seriously what other reason than to paint someone as a pedophile would a person have to reference Foley's own pedo acts? I don't know how stupid you two think everyone on Bob is, hon, but very few people are going to buy that one.

Him using the Catch a Predator reference and other comments makes me lean towards the latter. Everyone else that saw the thread all commented to that affect in the thread as I recall, and many also came up to me after I resigned to say he was wrong to bring up such allegations without me ever saying anything to them about it prior.

So either he meant it the way I and others took it and you're playing (or really are) dumb, or over 20 people (many with college education or degrees) coincidentally fail at reading comprehension all at once in the same spot. Hmmmm...what's more plausible?

I never accused you of paedophilia, you have either misread my post or are attempting to twist what I said.

I never said you did. I said NC did. I accused you of trying to spin it like I just misunderstood what he was saying to me despite it being cut and dry to everyone else that saw it.

The only time you asked me for logs before was relating to the TSO crisis, when I had given my word to protect Jenn'GoneWild, who told me information regarding the TSO split. That was why I refused to give you logs.

Exactly my point: every time you're asked for proof that I have seen, you dodge it and never prove or verify anything, not even your story for your refusal to provide logs.

Fact is you admit to being a traitor and purposely targeting me to manipulate me. Why should I take your word over someone I would trust my eventual children with in RL?

I have already explained why I don't consider myself to have been disloyal to MCXA. In addition, it took a great deal of courage to spy. If I had been caught, I faced expulsion and ZI.

Pffffffffft...please, not while I'm drinking orange juice, it burns my nose when it comes back up.

You took a loyalty oath that included terms that you would not spy on MCXA or leak info about MCXA to others.

You then turned around and willingly gave a known enemy of the MCXA any information you could your grimy little hands on, knowing (as you admit in this very quote) that if you were caught the punishment was expulsion and ZI for disloyalty and treason.

The charter and bylaws of the MCXA, and most other alliances, clearly indicate such actions as tell-tale signs that you are disloyal to your alliance in carrying them out, thus the label of being guilty of disloyalty and treason when being expelled and ZIed.

How does this obvious chain of logic evade you?

I can tell you right now, none of us ever actively tried to prevent you from being elected, but it's growing very clear why you never did win an election while people like Celt, DA, jesse, fish, lakie, sunny, jose, enime, anakey, sleep, and cadie were all around.

There are aspects to my story that do not portray me in a positive light, yet I have included them all. I don't see how you conclude that I think that I am wonderful. However, yes, I am proud of many of my actions. I believe I have a right to be so. I am sure there are things you have done that you are proud of too..... or at least, one can hope.

At red text: *cough*

Yes, I've done many things I am proud of in this game, and many, many more in real life. None of them involve lying and treason.

[Electron Sponge]

Quite a few of the people decrying espionage here are in alliances who have used information obtained by espionage in the past to curbstomp other alliances.

[Jack Diorno]

I enjoyed reading your memoirs. I wasn't there first hand during your spying exploits, so I won't judge. I probably wouldn't judge anyway, since I don't oppose spying.

Keep it real.

wait, wut?

[Grinder]

1) I was confident in the majority, but as it was not a large one it could be suppressed by the old guard described in CSM's post.

2) Spying is the hard work in question.

I'm confused...I thought TSO was the "old guard" in this situation...they left before Karma came to fruition and any disagreement as to what side MCXA should be on started. So how did TSO suppress your simple majority you had confidence in when all that's ever been needed to shape policy in MCXA is a simple majority vote?

Or are you referring to Gopher and Fresh?

It seems to me, Fran, it doesn't really matter where you are or what you're involved in...you seem to have some undying need to unseat the current powers that be and take the seat for yourself because you feel you know better or are better in some way for the job.

You've expressed this sentiment towards what is now known as TSO back when they were all MCXA still, despite none of us ever feeling any conflict between old and new members (I honestly think cadie joined MCXA after you, but still made it into HC in a matter of months) for power.

You've expressed this attitude towards NPO, and now towards TOP based solely on where they sit on the stats boards in-game as opposed to their actions and politics.

And now it seems that after TSO left, you simply slapped that incrowd label on those that rose into CC and HC positions over you.

You really are displaying signs of megalomania.

[Francesca]

And as I told you long ago, I would have encouraged you to press the charges. I never sought special treatment and I never gave it just because of longterm friendship. My neck was on the chopping block plenty of times and came close to getting the ax on most of those occasions. Ask Fresh, more often than not he had a hand in putting my neck there to be chopped.

You gave me no reason to believe this statement back when you first sent me those messages.

As far as I was concerned, there was no incrowd like you keep whining about. I never catered to any such thing anyway. We always had anywhere between 1 and 5 new members to High Council after each election that had never been elected before. To suggest an incrowd with those turn-over rates is simply sad.

On the contrary, there were a few names that got voted back in time after time despite chronic inactivity. Dragonaspect, for example. In addition, I think my claims about an "old boys crowd" are quite justified given that only a special few were given access to the Project 91 boards, where forming TSO was first discussed.

But not my friends like you claimed in your OP. Be more specific next time, saying I was simply forced to end it and then going straight into detailing a conflict between me and other gov members implies the gov forced me to end it.

Yes, actually I do believe they were your friends and fellow incrowd members.

Furthermore, doesn't a conflict between me and people that were supposedly my friends contradict your silly notion of an incrowd? Get your story straight, Fran. Either they had my back or they didn't.

Incrowds do not necessarily entirely agree on every single detail.

I specifically remember the To Catch a Predator comment by him was what initially made me lose my temper. I made no sexual comment to you, though, so the comparison to Foley was either him being extremely ignorant of the versatility of the F word and he was legitimately trying to stretch me telling you to go f*** yourself into meaning I was trying to make a sexual advance on you, or he was making a reference to a disgraced politician that made no sense given the connection he was trying to draw...seriously what other reason than to paint someone as a pedophile would a person have to reference Foley's own pedo acts? I don't know how stupid you two think everyone on Bob is, hon, but very few people are going to buy that one.

You told me to go f*** myself repeatedly. I can post the screenshots on here if you so desire. Those are sexual references, in my opinion.

Him using the Catch a Predator reference and other comments makes me lean towards the latter. Everyone else that saw the thread all commented to that affect in the thread as I recall, and many also came up to me after I resigned to say he was wrong to bring up such allegations without me ever saying anything to them about it prior.

So either he meant it the way I and others took it and you're playing (or really are) dumb, or over 20 people (many with college education or degrees) coincidentally fail at reading comprehension all at once in the same spot. Hmmmm...what's more plausible?

I don't recall the Catch a Predator reference.

You took a loyalty oath that included terms that you would not spy on MCXA or leak info about MCXA to others.

You then turned around and willingly gave a known enemy of the MCXA any information you could your grimy little hands on, knowing (as you admit in this very quote) that if you were caught the punishment was expulsion and ZI for disloyalty and treason.

As a matter of fact, I took no such oath. And furthermore, as CSM has described, I did not tell Vox absolutely everything.

The charter and bylaws of the MCXA, and most other alliances, clearly indicate such actions as tell-tale signs that you are disloyal to your alliance in carrying them out, thus the label of being guilty of disloyalty and treason when being expelled and ZIed.

I am fully aware what the Charter says. The entire original post was dedicated to explaining how I came to be in Vox, and why I don't consider that betrayal.

I can tell you right now, none of us ever actively tried to prevent you from being elected, but it's growing very clear why you never did win an election while people like Celt, DA, jesse, fish, lakie, sunny, jose, enime, anakey, sleep, and cadie were all around.

I won a High Council seat in the very first election I ran in, which happened to be the final one that all the people you mentioned ran in. I also won the following elections, for High Council and Minister of Foreign Affairs, and the election after that, also for MoFA and HC.

[Francesca]

I'm confused...I thought TSO was the "old guard" in this situation...they left before Karma came to fruition and any disagreement as to what side MCXA should be on started. So how did TSO suppress your simple majority you had confidence in when all that's ever been needed to shape policy in MCXA is a simple majority vote?

Or are you referring to Gopher and Fresh?

I joined Vox while TSO was still around.

You've expressed this sentiment towards what is now known as TSO back when they were all MCXA still, despite none of us ever feeling any conflict between old and new members (I honestly think cadie joined MCXA after you, but still made it into HC in a matter of months) for power.

Yes, Cadie got into HC before me, but I got into HC on first attempt. I had never run before.

You've expressed this attitude towards NPO, and now towards TOP based solely on where they sit on the stats boards in-game as opposed to their actions and politics.

In this thread, I described TOP as the new superpower, not as the new tyrannical superpower, and not that TOP needed to be toppled. However, yes, I do disagree with some of TOP's actions, but that is not relevant to my thread.

And now it seems that after TSO left, you simply slapped that incrowd label on those that rose into CC and HC positions over you.

I described them as an incrowd long before they left.

[CptGodzilla]

Francesca, others are saying that you didn't have MCXA at heart when you did these things. I happen to believe that you did. When I had a problem with MCXA, you were more helpful in dissolving the situation that the 3 other government members I talked to (specifically maxfiles was the worst). Just want to wish you luck in VE they are a good group, and hope you like it there.

[mykep]

Just want to wish you luck in VE they are a good group, and hope you like it there.

Not like you would care...Pixel carerer

[Francesca]

Francesca, others are saying that you didn't have MCXA at heart when you did these things. I happen to believe that you did. When I had a problem with MCXA, you were more helpful in dissolving the situation that the 3 other government members I talked to (specifically maxfiles was the worst). Just want to wish you luck in VE they are a good group, and hope you like it there.

Francesca inclines her head.

Thank you for the kind words.

[Innerspeaker]

To be quite honest, I most definitely sympathize with you Francesca. It's heartbreaking even to have that feeling that your alliance is in serious danger. While others in this thread have yet to buy into your story, I personally feel that your actions were justified (however true or false this story actually is), and honor the fact that you fought so hard to keep MCXA afloat, especially after the traitors in TSO jumped ship.