Proportionality: reps and the new NPO myth that we are "as bad as them."

[Chancellor Bismarck]

Which of course is a great argument for IRON's independence.

Um... nevermind. I think everyone (note: this is a relative reference. Apparently I have to lay those out for you) else gets what I was trying to say.

Everyone? Somehow I doubt that.

No. Just no. Are you that pitiful?

Perhaps if you answered my question. Have you ever been a Pacifican?

Yes, I have been a Pacifican. Are you claiming bias, simply on that fact?

EDIT: Found your question. Facepalm still stands. I haven't been in NPO for over a year (note: this is a relative reference. Apparently I have to lay those out for you). What's your point? My previous alliance was the Colonial Independence Association, which I founded last October.

I notice your alliance seniority is only 18 days. Where were you before then? Vox Populi?

Edited June 21, 2009 by Pacifism

[Big Z]

Or are you referring to the supposed plans by ODN and Legion to launch a preemptive strike on VE that exist only in Xiphosis' head?

You should get more fact checking. Considering there are logs out there proving that it's true, I'd say you really know absolutely nothing and are just pulling things out of nowhere. But then again, that's par for the course for you, Haflinger.

Edited June 21, 2009 by Big Z

[Bob Janova]

Do you still believe NPO was leading the push to make you "next" in December?

Though I don't see how that's relevant, no. We got those messages for well over a year, and it never became more plausible. But even that was more likely than SF offensively attacking the hegemony, which was just plain ridiculous.

Or are you referring to the supposed plans by ODN and Legion to launch a preemptive strike on VE that exist only in Xiphosis' head?

Both VE and ODN were rattling sabres at each other. This threat did not only exist in Xiph's head. The worry was that the hegemony might encourage an attack on VE in order to spark a global war, and use the events of that time as a pretext to do so. As we know now, it didn't happen, but the idea was no less likely than using an attack on OV for the same purpose a week or two later. That was the first time that a large group of alliances came together and thought 'there is a serious threat of the hegemony attacking, we should start thinking about how to defend ourselves'.

[Haflinger]

You should get more fact checking. Considering there are logs out there proving that it's true, I'd say you really know absolutely nothing and are just pulling things out of nowhere. But then again, that's par for the course for you, Haflinger.

lol.

I have logs proving it's false; you don't think I talk to my allies much do you?

Quite apart from the basic ludicrousness of thinking that ODN and Legion, a pair of alliances with a history of unbelievable aggressiveness, wanted to launch a pre-emptive assault on a sanctioned alliance with treaties all over the place, including to Pacifica.

Though I don't see how that's relevant, no. We got those messages for well over a year, and it never became more plausible.

Well... this is sortof interesting then. There was in fact a group of people pushing to make Grämlins next around then, but it wasn't NPO.

Both VE and ODN were rattling sabres at each other. This threat did not only exist in Xiph's head. The worry was that the hegemony might encourage an attack on VE in order to spark a global war, and use the events of that time as a pretext to do so. As we know now, it didn't happen, but the idea was no less likely than using an attack on OV for the same purpose a week or two later. That was the first time that a large group of alliances came together and thought 'there is a serious threat of the hegemony attacking, we should start thinking about how to defend ourselves'.

The interesting part about this war is that the NPO took actions to prevent, not encourage it.

Yes, I was involved too; I have lots of logs from that incident. If the NPO had really wanted that war to take place, they would have behaved very differently from how they actually behaved.

[Bob Janova]

The interesting part about this war is that the NPO took actions to prevent, not encourage it.

Interesting indeed. Considering their actions that short time later in starting the Karma War (which clearly showed that they were happy to be aggressive against VE/SF and therefore that they were not preventing the war for any greater moral purpose), I can only assume that they realised that attacking VE directly would cause them to lose. That makes it even stranger that they then failed so badly to see the scale of the defence that would come to the aid of OV.

[Yggdrazil]

Facepalms are idicative of someone lacking a logical argument.If for instance, I announce that Vox did not spy, rather than develope the counter argument proving me uninformed and wrong: someone throws in a facepalm picture, there appeal is a logical fallacy.Continue to do so,yet be aware that there are some who know this is wrong.Properly, no matter the absurdity,one should not regress to the lowest common denominator.Win a popularity contest with some other method.

[Big Z]

lol.

I have logs proving it's false; you don't think I talk to my allies much do you?

Quite apart from the basic ludicrousness of thinking that ODN and Legion, a pair of alliances with a history of unbelievable aggressiveness, wanted to launch a pre-emptive assault on a sanctioned alliance with treaties all over the place, including to Pacifica.

Oh really? Well, once again, you're clearly pulling things out of nowhere. Considering I have logs of the ODN secretary general at the time pretty much directly stating the opposite, I'd dare to say you're wrong (again). Perhaps you should consider actually talking to someone who knows what went on, instead of blathering on like a fool. Once again however, I don't have high hopes regarding that, though who knows, a broken clock is right twice a day after all.

[Jipps]

I made a specific statement, and you turned it into a universal principle. Where did I ever say that the goal of reparations is always to delay the rebuilding of an alliance? In this case reparations are being used for that purpose, but in the past the NPO has used reparations for many different reasons, although never one as benign as this one. In the case of the Legion, GATO and FAN for example, reparations were used to simultaneously rebuild the NPO while further weakening the defeated alliances - in preparation for yet further warfare.

This is where you stated such, unless I am mistaking your words:

Not revenge, prevention.

With the figures that have been proposed to the NPO, one can see that the reparations would be used to weaken the alliance and result in the rebuilding of their attackers. I will assume that the alliances attacking NPO will engage in further warfare at somepoint, so again what makes them any different?

I don't speak for GR, only for myself. And don't presume to know where I was or what I was doing while GPA and GATO were being rolled. Perhaps you'd care to answer your own question however. Were you speaking out when GPA, GATO or countless other alliances were being rolled by the NPO?

We can play the finger pointing game all day. I was so busy in real life from Jan-July 2008, that I barely found the time to collect my taxes every 20 days. I never found out about the events until after the fact.

[Azhrarn]

With the figures that have been proposed to the NPO, one can see that the reparations would be used to weaken the alliance and result in the rebuilding of their attackers. I will assume that the alliances attacking NPO will engage in further warfare at somepoint, so again what makes them any different?

The difference is that there are many people in Karma saying that the terms will not be made worse. There are many people in Karma who will oppose any attempt to drive the NPO from Planet Bob entirely. And, to my knowledge, there are no plans in place to renew attacks upon the NPO if, hypothetically speaking, they were to accept the terms which have been offered and paid reparations.

The NPO, I believe, is simply engaging in psychological projection. They are not seeing things as they truly are.

Edited June 21, 2009 by Azhrarn

[Xiphosis]

The interesting part about this war is that the NPO took actions to prevent, not encourage it.

As did I, even if I was miffed at Craig.

Or are you referring to the supposed plans by ODN and Legion to launch a preemptive strike on VE that exist only in Xiphosis' head?

Oh Haf, you should know better by now.

[18:42] <Ally-Person> Lol really?

[18:42] <Prox|ODN|Away> Yep

[18:44] <Prox|ODN|Away> I didnt care if we came out losing the war in the end, I wanted to make sure people knew we werent gonna stand for our allies being mistreated at the hands of some $@s

[18:45] <Prox|ODN|Away> But really I think we wouldve won

[18:45] <Prox|ODN|Away> cause despite their MADP I dont think Pacific is terribly happy with VE, so they coulda probably found some excuse to get out of it

[18:46] <Prox|ODN|Away> and I woulda tried to bring legion along for the ride

[18:46] <Prox|ODN|Away> we've got oA with them and theyve been looking for a way to affirm their comittment to orrple for a while

[18:47] <Prox|ODN|Away> If we couldnt bring Legion with us, oh well, I woulda done it anyway all alone tongue.gif

[18:48] <Prox|ODN|Away> mightve started a big $@! war, mightve just ended right there with all the treaties each side shared

[18:49] <Ally-Person> At least a war didn't start

[18:50] <Prox|ODN|Away> I wanted one to though D:

[18:53] <Ally-Person> ohmy.gif

[18:54] <Prox|ODN|Away> Us /starting/ a war to protect our allies honour would go so far to reduce the optional defense network stigma

[18:54] <Prox|ODN|Away> it would totally be worth losing

[18:55] <Ally-Person> Yeah I don't think anyone would've called you that again

I actually know Prox now, thanks to Karma chans. We were both just mad because we thought our allies were getting played or shoved around. So yeah, totally pulled it out of thin air, and totally was the only one thinking it.

[Lysandros]

Just imagine that Bubbler Nation had a 5-billion warchest by himself...

[Sigrun Vapneir]

Interesting indeed. Considering their actions that short time later in starting the Karma War (which clearly showed that they were happy to be aggressive against VE/SF and therefore that they were not preventing the war for any greater moral purpose), I can only assume that they realised that attacking VE directly would cause them to lose. That makes it even stranger that they then failed so badly to see the scale of the defence that would come to the aid of OV.

Yes, that really doesnt make sense. 

The alternative hypothesis that comes to mind immediately is simply that their dislike of ODN was the key factor. 

[Doitzel]

Interesting indeed. Considering their actions that short time later in starting the Karma War (which clearly showed that they were happy to be aggressive against VE/SF and therefore that they were not preventing the war for any greater moral purpose), I can only assume that they realised that attacking VE directly would cause them to lose. That makes it even stranger that they then failed so badly to see the scale of the defence that would come to the aid of OV.

I need hardly remind you that that defence almost did not come. They knew exactly what they were getting into. What they didn't plan on was screwing up so horribly and turning their own allies and all the fence-sitters against themselves.

Edited June 22, 2009 by Elyat

[Haflinger]

Interesting indeed. Considering their actions that short time later in starting the Karma War (which clearly showed that they were happy to be aggressive against VE/SF and therefore that they were not preventing the war for any greater moral purpose), I can only assume that they realised that attacking VE directly would cause them to lose. That makes it even stranger that they then failed so badly to see the scale of the defence that would come to the aid of OV.

I'd just once again like to remind you who started the initial interrogation of sethb. Really, you're missing the real picture here, but you're really close.

Oh really? Well, once again, you're clearly pulling things out of nowhere. Considering I have logs of the ODN secretary general at the time pretty much directly stating the opposite, I'd dare to say you're wrong (again). Perhaps you should consider actually talking to someone who knows what went on, instead of blathering on like a fool. Once again however, I don't have high hopes regarding that, though who knows, a broken clock is right twice a day after all.

Really, you have logs of Sunstar?

Oh Haf, you should know better by now.

I think I do. Let's see what you have.

[18:42] <Ally-Person> Lol really?

[18:42] <Prox|ODN|Away> Yep

Oh I SEE.

Prox was SoD at the time (now he's on Senate).

So you have vague statements made by someone who you thought was the ODN Secretary General, and wasn't, and you took that as proof that ODN and Legion were planning a preemptive strike on a sanctioned alliance?

Meanwhile, I have extensive logs with the person who was actually the ODN Secretary General, and in fact still is.

[Bob Janova]

I'd just once again like to remind you who started the initial interrogation of sethb.

It seemed to be TORN and TPF, for the most part. By 'they' I meant 'the hegemony' – no-one in that group moves (certainly not to start a war) without it being cleared and agreed on by the rest of them, and while I'm not sure if TORN was in the core by April (I know they weren't back in 2008), TPF and NPO definitely were.

[joracy]

We were never planning to attack preemptively attack VE. Support INT if VE ended up attacking them, yes, but that was all. If you seriously think we ever intended to attack somebody preemptively, you're insane. The entire incident was incredibly retarded and I'm quite happy to put it behind us.

[mykep]

You can not suspend gravity but you have no qualms about suspending logic.To equate Karma's action where choices can be made, with a natural law ( you cannot alter the result after jumping) makes you look silly.

Karma is a natural law of the mind. Cause and effect. The actions you do will decide your fate. That sums up what happened. Whether or not it is done by another person or something else, it is still Karma.

[NoFish]

Really, you have logs of Sunstar?

I think I do. Let's see what you have.

Oh I SEE.

Prox was SoD at the time (now he's on Senate).

So you have vague statements made by someone who you thought was the ODN Secretary General, and wasn't, and you took that as proof that ODN and Legion were planning a preemptive strike on a sanctioned alliance?

Meanwhile, I have extensive logs with the person who was actually the ODN Secretary General, and in fact still is.

I don't see where Xiph said his logs were of the Secretary General. Iunno, maybe I'm just having trouble reading today.

By "SoD" I assume you mean "Secretary of Defense." I take it, then, that you're implying that ODN's government official in charge of wars had no idea what was going on in is department and in fact has delusions of nearly starting a war that in fact never happened? With friends like you...

Edit: Oh, Z said that. /me blames Z

Edited June 23, 2009 by NoFish

[Big Z]

My mistake, he was Secretary of Defense. That still doesn't change anything, Haflinger.

[Haflinger]

By "SoD" I assume you mean "Secretary of Defense." I take it, then, that you're implying that ODN's government official in charge of wars had no idea what was going on in is department and in fact has delusions of nearly starting a war that in fact never happened? With friends like you...

No, I mean that the logs you quoted (which admittedly show Prox being goofy, and I would certainly not claim that they show good judgment on his part) don't prove that ODN was planning a preemptive strike. They don't even suggest one, honestly; do you think the opt-agg reference shows preemptive?

Orrple's non-cascading, and Legion had no treaty to International; so had the VE attacked International, then ODN would have been committed to defend Int, and several ODN allies would have assisted under opt-agg clauses as we didn't have a direct treaty to International.

And, like I said, I have logs with the SecGen which directly contradict your interpretation. So even if that's what Prox meant, he was wrong.

[Roosterton]

opposition to EZI, excessively harsh terms,

Not sure how you can claim to be opposed to harsh terms, with what you proposed a while back to the NPO. The reps may have been reasonable, but the "Get your nations out of peace mode so we can fight you for another 14 days" wasn't.

Also, could someone please explain to me what's wrong with having nations in Peace Mode? It's their right, why is trying to survive longer a bad thing.

I mean no disrespect to Karma, you were fighting for the right reasons in the beginning, but you've took the "Destroy NPO" thing too far, in my opinion.

(sorry if something very similar to this has been said/answered earlier in the thread, I didn't read the entire thing.)

Edited June 27, 2009 by Roosterton

[TypoNinja]

Not sure how you can claim to be opposed to harsh terms, with what you proposed a while back to the NPO. The reps may have been reasonable, but the "Get your nations out of peace mode so we can fight you for another 14 days" wasn't.

Also, could someone please explain to me what's wrong with having nations in Peace Mode? It's their right, why is trying to survive longer a bad thing.

I mean no disrespect to Karma, you were fighting for the right reasons in the beginning, but you've took the "Destroy NPO" thing too far.

This has been covered several times, you can find a spooky list if you go digging for it, the point is however is that these terms are not overly harsh. No, they aren't nice, but are you stupid enough to think they should be?

Harsh terms (things NPO has done before btw) would include all kinds of fun things like;

Wonder decoms

Viceroy

Forced rewrite of their charter

Indefinite tribute

No nukes..... Ever

Expulsion of government members

And lets not forget simply "die"

And the list goes on and on, thats harsh terms. the terms NPO got amount to "Fight us, pay us." And you are !@#$%*ing about infra and tech, compared to what has gone on in the past? Are you that blind to history?

[Roosterton]

the terms NPO got amount to "Fight us, pay us."

No, they didn't. They got, "Fight us, fight us with your peace mode nations, THEN pay us."

No, they aren't nice, but are you stupid enough to think they should be?

No, I don't. Simply the massive amounts of reps, would be harsh enough for the NPO. You're listing all of what NPO has done to justify you giving the NPO harsh terms. Is Bob going to make any progress if we have harsh terms after harsh terms? The Karma War is a perfect opportunity for Karma to take some initiative, and show the NPO that not everyone has to be power hungry... Er, people like they were.

Maybe proposing light terms in GWI didn't work for the NPO, as they came right back to the top. But consider, in GWI the NPO didn't get hit as hard during the war as they did in this war.

Also, you seem to be forgetting what an effect the war has already had on the NPO. The NPO's strength dropped by over half DURING the war, and now Karma wants to drag it on for longer? Not fitting in for me.

And you are !@#$%*ing about infra and tech, compared to what has gone on in the past? Are you that blind to history?

Funny, I don't seem to remember mentioning infra or tech in my first post. Please explain how you managed to extract that.

Edited June 27, 2009 by Roosterton

[NoFish]

No, I don't. Simply the massive amounts of reps, would be harsh enough for the NPO. You're listing all of what NPO has done to justify you giving the NPO harsh terms. Is Bob going to make any progress if we have harsh terms after harsh terms? The Karma War is a perfect opportunity for Karma to take some initiative, and show the NPO that not everyone has to be power hungry... Er, people like they were.

Maybe proposing light terms in GWI didn't work for the NPO, as they came right back to the top. But consider, in GWI the NPO didn't get hit as hard during the war as they did in this war.

Also, you seem to be forgetting what an effect the war has already had on the NPO. The NPO's strength dropped by over half DURING the war, and now Karma wants to drag it on for longer? Not fitting in for me.

I seem to have missed the 57th Overlander's DoW in this mess. GOD has lost about 1/3 of it's NS in this war. Care to point out how much blood you've spilled to earn your right to judge us and our methods? Care to point out which of your allies got attacked with a trumped up CB?

[Haflinger]

I seem to have missed the 57th Overlander's DoW in this mess. GOD has lost about 1/3 of it's NS in this war. Care to point out how much blood you've spilled to earn your right to judge us and our methods? Care to point out which of your allies got attacked with a trumped up CB?

Is it necessary to fight a war to be allowed to express one's opinions on these forums?