Proportionality: reps and the new NPO myth that we are "as bad as them."

[Azaghul]

With Karma's successful war against NPO & Hegemony the question of terms and punishments has come up to a head recently in two different ways. Nearly all of NPO's allies and others that fought on their side have surrendered, and the question has arisen: What terms do those alliances deserve? Does giving reps, even significant ones, and other punitive actions by Karma alliances mean that Karma is just as bad as NPO and betraying the ideals it professes to fight for?

Jew News Conspiracy of NPO recently released a blog entry trying to portray us as hypocrites. The TLDR is that it discusses terms that Karma was giving NPO that would increase the reps they had to pay and length of terms for every decently sized NPO nation in peace mode. It gives it's literal definition of Karma, interpretation of what "Karma" is, as well as championing it's military might that has been tested through "twenty major wars".

In this essay I will deconstruct his arguments and also discuss other debates on this issue. I don't profess to speak for anyone but myself, though many may agree with me. I write it to present what I believe to be the truth and counter the misconceptions NPO is attempting to spread.

What is Karma and what are its ideals?

Contrary to what some on both sides may have professed, Karma is not a unified entity. It is not a long term political unit, it is a war time coalition of many different alliances who have varied motivations to why they fight. Nearly all fight because of their treaties and closest friends fighting on the side of Karma. They saw NPO's attack on OV as a threat to them and their friends and did not want to watch the Karma "side of the web" be half destroyed. It was a defensive action for most. Many, but not all, in combination with the above, also believed that Karma's side consisted of more morally good alliances who would usher in a better age for the world, though what exactly those were has never been codified. Some still held resentment against NPO and its close allies for past grievances. Many had aligned themselves with that "side" of the web either intentionally because of their ideals by allying with certain people or just by moving away from NPO and keeping their other ties, most just desiring peace.

The unofficial association that would be eventually become Karma was first created a week or two before the war when NPO started to make aggressive moves and was simply a means of communication over the issues surrounding that aggression. Those aggressive moves eventually culminated in an attack on OV, ally of Vanguard, VE, and GOD. It was at that point that Karma was given it's name and became a war time coalition.

Karma has no official ideals. All we have are the ideals professed by many of its members to varying degrees. There are common themes, opposition to EZI, excessively harsh terms, bad wars, "Karma"- "What goes around comes around", and justice. The name for Karma itself is just a commonly used term that has come to be accepted, it wasn't voted on and was never meant as an all encompassing statement of its purpose.

Some alliances and members in those alliances have held various views that haven't been met by agreement with others in the coalition, opposition to most reps, a desire to seek payback for past wars, opposition to unipolarity, and others.

Hegemony's straw man

Jew News Conspiracy in his blog entry wrote that "I can accept that your view is that all the things we have done up to this point has resulted in this. No biggie. But don't even presume to justify your actions as being justice when you are guilty as the same things you accuse us of." The main contention of course, is that we are "guilty of the same things you accuse us of". There are two issues connected with the notice to NPO about terms and peace mode, reps and threatening an opponent to come out of peace mode.

The peace mode issue, by any reasonable analysis, is not equal at all. Karma is adding on extra reps for NPO nations after a clear pattern of intentionally most large nations they can into peace mode indefinitely. NPO threatened to perma-ZI GATO nations not long into the war. Extra reps and perma-ZI are hardly "the same thing".

On both issues there have been attempts by NPO and those on the side of Hegemony to represent any reparations or criticisms of peace mode and refusal to end a war while nations hide there, as hypocritical. They attempt to portray Karma as opposed to both in absolute terms on principle. In reality, that is only the case for a few. Most of us have not objected to them entirely in an absolute sense, only objected when NPO brought them way to far. Perma-ZIing nations for being in peace mode, huge reps for alliances that didn't do much wrong, chasing players against honest attempts at re-rolling and starting over. The only item that has been absolutely widely condemned in absolute terms is eternal-ZI. For the rest, what we have desired is proportionality. Punishment and actions to fit the crime.

Proportionality

So what makes some terms fair and proportional and some excessive? That depends on a few factors, what are the terms going to achieve? How big is the alliance in question and how able are they to fulfill them? What crimes have they committed? The reason so many objected to the terms given in the GATO war and noCB war is that they did not match the crimes committed at all. GATO had many, many months earlier violated a peace term for a very long passed war and faced months of war and then a very long viceroy because of it. They were far in excess of what was justified by the crime committed. MK was faced with reps that were very heavy for what was then about a 190 man alliance to pay for the "crime" of defending allies from a totally bankrupt attack on those allies. Again the punishment did not fit the crime. Athens had to send off 7/8ths of its tech when it had only done the same and unlike MK, had not been very nuclear capable and hadn't done much damage.

NPO is trying to portray comparable terms and conditions for them as us throwing away any moral pretexts and making us just as bad as them. They make this logical error in hopes that they say it enough, it will be believed and earn them easier terms. However we have what they lacked, proportionality. They started an aggressive war intending to destroy many of us and our allies. That is not a comparable crime to what MK or GATO did. MK's terms would have been appropriate if we had started an aggressive war. We did not. Heavy terms are appropriate for an alliance that starts a war, they aren't for an alliance forced in by treaties to merely defend an ally.

We have shown proportionality. Nearly all alliances that have fought for NPO have received light terms and many a complete white peace. Some such as IRON have received moderate reps. Some terms are deserved for voluntarily having a MADP or other treaty with NPO and supporting their aggression. But the terms we have given still have been reasonable, and they will continue to be reasonable. NPO will get relatively hard terms compared to their allies because they started the war. They will get terms equal to or comparable to terms that many of those in Karma have complained about in the past. But that won't make us hypocrites, because the terms given will match the crime and the ability to fulfill them, whereas many of NPO's in the past have not. We would only be hypocritical if we gave out very hard terms regardless of in an alliance was only honoring its treaties like NPO did.

The economics of reparations

This brings me to my last subject, the economics of reparations and rebuilding. I know a great deal about this because I organized MK's economic system after the noCB war that both rebuilt our alliance and paid a massive amount in reparations.

The economics of CN have changed drastically since 2007. Many nations have a large number of economic improvements, wonders, war chests, and infrastructure. Wars wear down infrastructure quickly and war chests moderately, however a nation's economic improvements and wonders will remain. Banking: sending out 15 or 18 mill every ten days, only reasonable requires 4K infrastructure, less if your desperate and more ideally. That used to be very big, today it's average. Many nations will have the war chests to rebuild to it instantaneously or economic improvements and wonders to build to it quickly. A very large proportion of nations have the ability to act as banks.

For most alliances, the ability to pay reps and send internal rebuilding aid is usually not restricted by the development of their nations but by their organizational ability and aid slots which is dependent on membership count. Even if the average bank earns 50 or 100 mill every ten days, it can only send out 18 mill. Only for new alliances with mostly small nations, alliances without good economics ministers, or alliances without much will or spirit left in them, are defeated by moderate reparations. It would take a very extreme amount of reparations to tie up an alliance's aid slots. Even MK's and NpO's very hard reps did not use up but a fraction of our aid slots and we were both able to execute massive rebuilding programs that transferred billions internally. Both MK and NpO were much smaller and had fewer nations than IRON and NPO do now. IRON has 585 nations, with scores and possibly hundreds that could be able to bank now or within a month after rebuilding some. 100 nations with 5 slots each in one cycle can send out 1.5 billion in money or 25,000 in tech. 300 nations sending out tech 3 slots each can send out 135,000 tech a month. 100 nations sending out money on 6 slots can produce 5.4 billion a month. For NPO over a period of months, an amount comparable to those numbers or even 2-3 times that would not use up all of their aid slots over a period of months. Using up all aid slots would not stop their nations from using their store of economic improvements and wonders to rebuild.

Nor do reparations make up much of the damage caused by nuclear war. They are more of a symbolic than practical matter. Some in C&G and others complained about Valhalla not getting reps and being able to build completely without realizing this. For an alliance Valhalla's size, even 30,000 in tech would only have postponed their rebuilding a few days overall. For an alliance of NPO's or IRON's size, 30,000 in tech doesn't require that much at all.

Conclusion

The motivation behind's NPO's latest campaign to portray Karma as just as bad as them is dishonest and deceptive. Their purpose is relatively transparent, they want to convince us that any hard reparations or terms, no matter what they are for, contradict the ideals many of us have professed. They are doing this by ignoring all arguments about proportionality and instead repeating the line over and over again that we are as bad as them in the hopes that if it said enough they will be believed. They do this not because they believe it, but in the vain hope that we will fall for it and let them off easy.

In the face of this campaign, we must remain resolute and remember that their portrayal of our ideals is inaccurate. That we fight not for absolutes where justice does not exist at all, but proportionality, fairness, and punishments to fit the crime. They started this war to dismantle and destroy us, they are the aggressors. Don't let them convince you otherwise.

[Scorbolt]

This, of course, could not be more accurate. Although the labeling and posturing is to be wholly expected.

[Haflinger]

So there's a size limit on the nations that have to come out of peace mode before you start discussing terms?

What is it?

Note that of the 260 NPO peace mode nations, over half are below 10K Nation Strength.

[Alterego]

I got as far as the link to this and will go no further.

Gen_Lee: i got the job of messenger

[9:29pm] Gen_Lee: the Karma front on NPO has some instructions regarding peace moded nations you can take em or leave em:

[9:30pm] Gen_Lee: -NPO has five days to move all their nations out peace mode with zero penalty.

[9:30pm] Moo-Spock: we will never move our banks

[9:30pm] Moo-Spock: never have

[9:30pm] Gen_Lee: -6th Day and on:.For every NPO nation above 5k NS in peace mode, 3 mil and 100 tech in reparations will be added to any peace terms, per day. The duration of all peace terms will also be increased by 2 days for any day any NPO nation above 5k is in peace after the 5th day.

[9:31pm] Gen_Lee: ok

[9:32pm] Gen_Lee: thought i should let you know

[9:32pm] Gen_Lee: talk to ya later

[9:33pm] Moo-Spock: the other nations have rotated out of PM on a regular basis, just like every other alliance

[9:33pm] Moo-Spock: I will post this for our BR to discuss

[9:34pm] Gen_Lee: alright

[9:36pm] Gen_Lee: oh for record sake, clock starts now 5/21 11:38 server time

[Bob]

So there's a size limit on the nations that have to come out of peace mode before you start discussing terms?

What is it?

Note that of the 260 NPO peace mode nations, over half are below 10K Nation Strength.

And how many of their peace mode nations make up the first page of nations?

[Raken]

Haflinger I wonder how you can bring yourself to post such ludacris things sometimes.

Great post Azaghul.

[Seerow]

I got as far as the link to this and will go no further.

Wait to miss the entire point of the post.

So there's a size limit on the nations that have to come out of peace mode before you start discussing terms?

What is it?

Note that of the 260 NPO peace mode nations, over half are below 10K Nation Strength.

I'll agree that there should be a size limit, but the 5k NS limit was artificial. What should have been done is all nations in peace over 4k infra, followed by organized IG spying on those with less than that to find which of those nations had warchests sufficient to build higher. (Though to be honest if you're in peace mode with less than 4k infra and have any warchest left you're proably better off dipping into the warchest to get back above 4k infra, so I doubt this would be an issue in peace mode nations, and more of an issue in smaller nations still at war)

Edited May 25, 2009 by Seerow

[Diomede]

Not a bad read. I'm off to read the blog now.

[Voodoo Nova]

So there's a size limit on the nations that have to come out of peace mode before you start discussing terms?

What is it?

Note that of the 260 NPO peace mode nations, over half are below 10K Nation Strength.

I think it is 5k Nation Strength.

Azaghul, very well written response to Vengashii's blog post.

Edited May 25, 2009 by Voodoo Nova

[AirMe]

I got as far as the link to this and will go no further.

Those aren't even the full logs Alterego. There was more to the conversation that was intentionally left out.

Great post Azaghul. This was well written, well thought out, and relatively unbiased. I wish I could write things of beauty like this.

EDIT: right does not equal write.

Edited May 25, 2009 by AirMe

[Archon]

Wait to miss the entire point of the post.

Hey, at least he admits he does not even bother to read the entire thing before posting. Acceptance of sheer ignorance must be a first step to something...

[Schattenmann]

I got as far as the link to this and will go no further.

I guess ignorance is a decision sometimes.

[Nintenderek]

Those aren't even the full logs Alterego. There was more to the conversation that was intentionally left out.

Is there any way those logs could be shown?

[AirMe]

Is there any way those logs could be shown?

I do not have that authority. You should probably ask the people who had the conversation.

[JayOvfEnnay]

In all honesty that was a great read, and gives more verification to exactly what Karma is and what it's goals are. Would read again.

[milkmanrox100]

I was in MK when we had to pay the reps, and I can attest that reps weren't an all-encompassing thing at all. One or two slots per aid cycle at most. I spend more of my aid slots on tech and internal aid than I ever did on reps. This coming from a guy who has Ro-ken-ten organize his tech deals for him.

Edited May 25, 2009 by milkmanrox100

[Zoomzoomzoom]

Excellent read. I expect it won't do much because they have already set their minds to the fact that Karma are the bad guys.

An informative post to those with an open mind.

[Heracles the Great]

A great article Azaghul - thank you for the read

[Haflinger]

I think it is 5k Nation Strength.

If that's the case, then the clock is currently ticking at 15K tech/day. So it'll probably take at least another month and a bit before the preterm reps are higher than NPO's total tech.

[AirMe]

If that's the case, then the clock is currently ticking at 15K tech/day. So it'll probably take at least another month and a bit before the preterm reps are higher than NPO's total tech.

Well that's right inline with the original terms offered to Athens in the noCB war. So where is the issue? Where was the outrage then? If it was there, did you act on it? If you did we probably wouldn't be having this conversation right now.

[Guzalot]

Great post.

[SpacingOutMan]

Well said.

[OOC]Honestly, one of the best threads in the World Affairs for a while[/OOC]

[TypoNinja]

And how many of their peace mode nations make up the first page of nations?

Try more like "First three pages"

Edit: Since it matters I sort 20 nations to the page.

Edited May 25, 2009 by TypoNinja

[Haflinger]

Well that's right inline with the original terms offered to Athens in the noCB war. So where is the issue? Where was the outrage then? If it was there, did you act on it? If you did we probably wouldn't be having this conversation right now.

Heh. I think we've all been over this before, and you can probably talk to Londo to get my position on that topic in any case.

(Good of you to pick up on it - I was referencing the Athens terms there.)

[Stumpy Jung Il]

Well that's right inline with the original terms offered to Athens in the noCB war. So where is the issue? Where was the outrage then? If it was there, did you act on it? If you did we probably wouldn't be having this conversation right now.

AirMe, you know that most of the people who complain about terms now were fully supportive of what was done to MK and CnG, not to mention the terms that killed TDSM8. They didn't care then cause they thought it'd never happen to them, they only care now out of selfishness.