Reps for IRON, NPO, Echelon, and TPF

[Matthew Conrad]

talk about a whole long paragraph of absolute crap. and your second point just cheers on bandwagoning and 11th hour cancellations. If thats how you plan your future in CN, good luck.

I don't think he's the one talking absolute crap. You can't really expect to prod others for late cancellations considering yours was, let's say a hour after midnight. I'm glad you guys cancelled but you have no legs to stand on calling someone else out for late cancellations. Also, let's be honest here, Q had some serious internal divisions before this war was even on the horizon.

[Matthew Conrad]

Just pointing out IRON did not take reps from any of the above mentioned alliances subject to terms of peace.

That's because IRON wasn't fighting on that front of the war. That's like saying someone fighting only NPO should get reps from Valhalla.

[Iotupa]

Actual reparations should be given only to those alliances that came in not as a result of a defensive treaty. As far as my outdated knowledge gets me, this would be NPO and TORN (TORN was let out prior to me leaving, so yes, I am aware of that). The rest, if they receive any terms, should be made up of selling technology at slightly lower than normal rates, such as 150 tech for 3 mil, instead of most alliance's internal rate of 3 mil for 50 or 100. To do anything else is to sink to their level and prove that Karma is full of hypocrites, who despite their !@#$%*ing for the last year, are no better than the NPO and were only out for revenge in this war.

[shahenshah]

If Karma had been 'aching' for a war to break out, Karma would have made the first move.

You purposely ignore the fact that Karma is a defensive coalition that only assembled as a response to unjustified Pacifican aggression. Aggression which IRON has attempted to validate by defending the New Pacific Order.

Agression which IRON did not supported but had to act because of treaty obligations, I dont know about your side, but we take our word damn seriously, through thick or thin. Our principles are unfortuantely or fortunately not as adaptive as yours.

You answered your own question. IRON has stood by Pacifica and other Hegemony alliances for years, growing fat on the benefits of extortion, the removal of political opponents through manufactured wars and the use of permanent and eternal-ZI, and the protection generated from every underhanded act perpetrated by core Hegemony alliances intended to extend their domination.

List me the extortions we took, maybe then I'll compare it to ones taken by some on your side...but you know what has saved whatever grace Karma has..its that some of these alliances have moved on from that past and have taken up much more higher principles while you're still behind crying 'revenge revenge revenge'. As for EZI..it was removed, if you're going to give me some e-lawyer lectures on that, pls keep it to yourself. As for Viceroyalty, you guys had problem with it when NPO kept it, and you had problem with it when they didnt. You are going to have a problem anyway...no matter what I type...so this is probably the last time I'll dignify your post by replying.

Firstly, those groups - such as Sparta, VE, FOK, Ragnarok, etc - that were formerly allied to the New Pacific Order and other Hegemony alliances, but now fight for Karma or are involved as an associated power, were never at the forefront of any of the major injustices committed by Pacifica and core Hegemony alliances. When you ask those who have been grossly wronged in the past two or so years who they feel were most responsible for the transgressions against them, it is rarely an answer of "Sparta" or "FOK".

In your history, NoCB war apparently does not exist.

Rather, you will find the most common answers would be "NPO", "Valhalla", "TPF", "IRON", "Old Guard" and "GGA". This certainly does not excuse alliances for their bolstering of the pre-war 'hegemony' (not the war-time coalition), which to some degree, provided current core Hegemony alliances the ability to commit their despicable actions. However, this leads me to my second point.

Please tell me where I can find those. I am sure you have them somewhere with all links and numbers saved lol seriously..and @ mention of Old Guard..only time Old Guard got more than usual publicity was when character attacks were being made on OG's leader...something your side supported and cheered (Less Citadel, Harmlins). As for how often IRON is mentioned...remember that 'Alliance Stereotypes' thread...IRON was mentioned like once in the first 6 pages and that also on the 6th page. Nobody really cares about us

I am sorry that IRON doesnt showboats its opinions or waivering of terms to satisfy any complexes and aim for public approval...its kinda usefull in these situations when people keep coming up with funny new excuses for crippling and extremely harsh terms thinking 'IRON must've asked for crippling and harsh terms all along' and suddenly find 'whoops, nothing there' and tada!

The actions in this war of ex-Continuum alliances and former allies of the New Pacific Order can be, to a rather large extent, interpreted as a form of 'penance' for previous events and prior support (whether directly or indirectly) for the heinous transgressions of Pacifica et al. Over time - some more swiftly than others - each came to realise that the stranglehold on political and military affairs that they buttressed was neither just, nor within the best interests of the Cyberverse at large. They chose the right course of action in assisting with the destruction of a monster they inadvertently created.

NPO et al consists of many alliances on your side..infact...let me re-phrase it, many alliances on whose side 'you' are on. Its you who needed their support, not them, be thankful to them and advice your allies and their .gov to not troll them publicly next time. Many of these alliances are also the one who took a stance on aspects of principles and have stayed true to their meanings while you're here everyday trying to justify revenge...and they...I haven't seen them justify to anything. THATS the difference. Figure it out.

My final point is rather simple. You claim that these alliances ditched NPO just as momentum materialised for what became Karma. That would seem a sensible course of action to me, considering for two years, any alliance seen as a significant threat to Pacifica or other central Hegemony alliances had a strange tendency to find themselves in a war with odds grossly skewed against them and subsequently paying colossal reparations for entirely defensive engagements.

We took a better option, we cancelled our treaties with NPO but went in to honour the several other clauses that were overlapping, including the cancellation clause. We wouldn't take your advice and sell out our principles and honor even if that means ending up loosing 2nd most score ever in history of the game.

Ragnarok was attacked by IRON as a result of the latter attempting to validate Pacifican aggression. Ragnarok is more than justified in pursuing reparations. Let no one forget just who is responsible for this war.

Nobody has denied them the rights to pursue reps.

Edited May 24, 2009 by shahenshah

[Harold the Saxon]

When it comes to the conclusion of any conflict, the amount of reparations demanded is bound to cause contreversy. I am speaking to you from an impartial angle of reference regarding all sides.

What is it about reparations themselves, we must ask ourselves, which have caused anger and frustration in the past? Let's be honest with ourselves: anything is allowed on surrender or peace terms if both parties agree. Reparations were never immoral on their own.

What made them such was the unreasonable amounts and additional conditions which Pacifica and partners demanded off other parties. I do not wish to call the Karma coalition hypocrites if they, in likewise fashion, ask for reparations. Moreover, why not take a different approach to such terms and defeat the issue we have held with Pacifica & co.?

My suggestion is white peace. This is the reason: New Pacific Order and allies are sufficiently beaten and diplomatically isolated in such a way as to be disabled from their previous capacities. It would be an effective way to pave the path to a more vibrant cybernations by showing that, although these alliances had no mercy for their enemies, we can. I believe the game is more fun and interesting with these alliances alive and allowed to act. Remember that, even though they did offer excessive terms, many alliances have been allowed to live: GATO, Legion, ODN, et al.

I understand it will be hard to accept this idea, mostly because of the suffering these alliances have inflicted on us in the past. What I ask, thus, is to turn the other cheek and grant the peace and goodness that they did not to us.

[BamaBuc]

Keep trying Bama. If you take a second and look around, you're on your own. I don't see Finster, peron, Shan, MCRABT or any of the other IRON gov officials I've dealt with here backing up your foolish assumptions.

How many times have I refuted your !@#$%^&*? And how many times has one of the above come and backed you up?

Quit wasting my time.

Sigh. You never refuted a word I said with facts, you just said "you're wrong go ask IRON". So I talked to Finster. He told me that he knew nothing about the rumored early sums (9b 100k and 6b 110k), but that the revised amount I cited was exactly what was on the table. The only way I could see that I could be partially wrong is if some of those reps are going to Fark rather than you, which I've also heard. As for the early sums, my guess is that at least one of them was discussed in private but never brought to IRON. Am I right, or are TOP members speaking out of their butts for the first time ever? Because I've never known them to do that. If I'm wrong, tell me what's up. Don't just give me an "Uhh... NO U!" It makes it look like you're just mad that I brought these dirty facts public. I can't wait to see those final terms. I expect every !@#$@#$ cent to go to alliances who deserve restitution, like GPA and GATO. But I'm sure it'll all end up in your pockets.

-Bama

[519 Nigras]

Nations like Bubbler carry a 4.5 BILLION dollar warchest. 9 Billion is peanuts. Many NPO nations I've spied on carry well over 2 BILLION. You can't be upset about 9 BILLION, can you?

[Bob Janova]

Not content with surrendering once, eh Bama? You just have to go to another losing alliance so you can continue to rail against Karma and try to smear them at every opportunity.

Putting preliminary figures out on the public boards is low class, you and everyone else will see the terms when they are signed and posted. $3b/50,000 is considerably less than the damage done by IRON though, so even if that was the figure then it would not be worth the level of vitriol you are producing.

[Matt Miller]

Nations like Bubbler carry a 4.5 BILLION dollar warchest. 9 Billion is peanuts. Many NPO nations I've spied on carry well over 2 BILLION. You can't be upset about 9 BILLION, can you?

Hello there, the name's Matt.

And though I had just shy of 5.2 billion prior to war, that plus a huge amount of tech is a 100% ridiculous amount for anyone to ask for, let alone 9 billion. That's just my opinion, I certainly don't expect you to agree.

The tough part will be the limitations on aid slots, not how much a small number of us currently hold. The amount is not what limits me and others, it's the # of FA slots. I'm sure whatever reps are agreed upon in the end I could pay them off rather quickly alone if admin would grant me unlimited outgoing aid slots for 10 days or so. If someone can get him to slip that into place I'll back it up.

[Haflinger]

Point I am trying to make is that almost all alliances that had direct treaties ended up paying more reps then anyone in this last war had.

I'd like to note that SOLID's reps were cut by NATO and Invicta to 300 tech each, and Zenith forgave them completely; also all that tech came in the form of 3M/150T deals.

It still was far too much total reps considering what happened to them in the war. Poor SOLID.

[Drostan]

Hello there, the name's Matt.

And though I had just shy of 5.2 billion prior to war, that plus a huge amount of tech is a 100% ridiculous amount for anyone to ask for, let alone 9 billion. That's just my opinion, I certainly don't expect you to agree.

The tough part will be the limitations on aid slots, not how much a small number of us currently hold. The amount is not what limits me and others, it's the # of FA slots. I'm sure whatever reps are agreed upon in the end I could pay them off rather quickly alone if admin would grant me unlimited outgoing aid slots for 10 days or so. If someone can get him to slip that into place I'll back it up.

500 nations sending out 18M (possible with correct wonders) could send out 9B in a single aid cycle. heh. So honestly over a few months 9B should be fairly easy to manage.

600 nations sending out 15M could do 9B in a single cycle.

750 at 12M in a single cycle. etc.

So if only 250 nations are able to send 18M it would only take 20 days. The limit on FA slots really doesn't factor in as chances are you will be using most of the slots to pay reparations first. If an alliance were well enough organized it should be doable to send out 9B within a month quite feasibly. In 4 cycles 250 nations sending out 9M each could pay off the 9B. I think that one is particularly poignant as 9M is easily payable per cycle and is more realistic.

Edited May 25, 2009 by Drostan

[Mogar]

Putting preliminary figures out on the public boards is low class, you and everyone else will see the terms when they are signed and posted. $3b/50,000 is considerably less than the damage done by IRON though, so even if that was the figure then it would not be worth the level of vitriol you are producing.

I think the point is IRON wont be paying those reps to anyone who actually deserves them, the alliances currently at war with them have never paid reps to IRON in the first place.

[Bob Janova]

As I explained before, those two clauses are not that linked. The damage done by IRON in this war is quite enough to justify reparations way above any of the numbers anyone has mentioned here. For example I roughly estimate Grämlins' damages at $50bn.

[519 Nigras]

Hello there, the name's Matt.

And though I had just shy of 5.2 billion prior to war, that plus a huge amount of tech is a 100% ridiculous amount for anyone to ask for, let alone 9 billion. That's just my opinion, I certainly don't expect you to agree.

The tough part will be the limitations on aid slots, not how much a small number of us currently hold. The amount is not what limits me and others, it's the # of FA slots. I'm sure whatever reps are agreed upon in the end I could pay them off rather quickly alone if admin would grant me unlimited outgoing aid slots for 10 days or so. If someone can get him to slip that into place I'll back it up.

Oh hi. Want to go for a third round in this conflict?

I don't think anyone expects you, or anyone in IRON, to be complacent with any terms brought forth. Doing so would be bad negotiation techniques. I've stated, twice already, in this thread that money I do not want. Stipulations should include military/wonder destruction, government removal, viceroyship, limits on infra/tech/land purchases, senate removal, treaty cancellations/limitations, moving to pink, and farming your nations for cheap tech until 2012.

[brickyard]

Im getting tired of all this greed.

Isnt this game supposed to be fun?

Edited May 25, 2009 by brickyard

[Haflinger]

Then why demand it in the first place?

It is strange how everyone is claiming to have secretly waived reps now that they are trying to argue against the prospect of reps ...

In the War of the Coalition, frequently peace negotiations took place without representatives of all the warring alliances available. Some alliances got told later on how much technology had been negotiated on our behalf; typically we signed off on the initial agreement in order to end the pain of the victim alliance. Then some of us went away and decided how much reparations were actually fair.

I'm glad to find out TORN was one of the other alliances that did this.

Why? If NPO gets harsh terms, is FEAR going to break their surrender and rejoin the fight?

How you got that from Lartize's obvious popcorn-munching post I am not sure.

[Harold the Saxon]

As I explained before, those two clauses are not that linked. The damage done by IRON in this war is quite enough to justify reparations way above any of the numbers anyone has mentioned here. For example I roughly estimate Grämlins' damages at $50bn.

Why are reparations needed? What are their purpose in this conflict? How is the demand for reparations in such regards different from the manners our enemies have used before?

[Mogar]

As I explained before, those two clauses are not that linked. The damage done by IRON in this war is quite enough to justify reparations way above any of the numbers anyone has mentioned here. For example I roughly estimate Grämlins' damages at $50bn.

how dare they actually fight back, the nerve of people these days!

edit: after seeing the terms, I respect Grämlins, Fark, MHA, and FCC's white peace offer.

Edited May 25, 2009 by Mogar

[Khyber]

500 nations sending out 18M (possible with correct wonders) could send out 9B in a single aid cycle. heh. So honestly over a few months 9B should be fairly easy to manage.

600 nations sending out 15M could do 9B in a single cycle.

750 at 12M in a single cycle. etc.

So if only 250 nations are able to send 18M it would only take 20 days. The limit on FA slots really doesn't factor in as chances are you will be using most of the slots to pay reparations first. If an alliance were well enough organized it should be doable to send out 9B within a month quite feasibly. In 4 cycles 250 nations sending out 9M each could pay off the 9B. I think that one is particularly poignant as 9M is easily payable per cycle and is more realistic.

Where are you getting the 250 nations? They probably have less then 50 nations that can afford to send out the aid being requested of 18M every 10 days.

I don't think their WCs were that big tbh. Sure some of them were packed, but looking at their 250th nation, they are less then 1000 infra which they need to send out nukes. They also don't have too many nations with a lot of tech.

I think you guys are overestimating what they have. The reason you are doing this is because alliances like MK, Gremlins, TOP are a very different build then IRON. You can probably ask higher reps from our kind of build alliances, but can't do so from alliances like Sparta, IRON, and NPO and still be realistic. I think if Sparta endured a war for 30 days, but kept it's membership, and had very few nations in peace mode (which IRON has done in an attempt to fight fair and honestly) you will have no chance to pay off those kinds of reps. So why are you assuming IRON could?

9 billion is a bit much for IRON, they probably have 50 nations that can put out 18mil every 10 days, and that will take them 20 cycles, that is 200 days. Even if they drop it down to 150 days due to nations getting to 4k infra which is where they need to be to help out effectively, gaining around 2mil a day with good trades set up.

Unless your intention is to destroy the community, such harsh reps seem a bit unfair to me. And lets be honest, Matt can not pay it all himself, and I bet you he is more of the exception rather then the rule in IRON when it comes to a warchest his size.

Edited May 25, 2009 by Khyber

[Haflinger]

Just an update: if you missed it, IRON's terms have been agreed on, and were 1.5 billion and 20K tech to Ragnarok, plus 2.5K tech each to 4 smaller alliances. The other large alliances at war with IRON got white peace.

[Lord Brendan]

Why are reparations needed? What are their purpose in this conflict? How is the demand for reparations in such regards different from the manners our enemies have used before?

Do you honestly not understand the difference between demanding reparations from an alliance that attacked you or your allies and extorting 'reparations' from an alliance you've just annihilated in an aggressive war?

[Gen Lee]

Sigh. You never refuted a word I said with facts, you just said "you're wrong go ask IRON". So I talked to Finster. He told me that he knew nothing about the rumored early sums (9b 100k and 6b 110k), but that the revised amount I cited was exactly what was on the table. The only way I could see that I could be partially wrong is if some of those reps are going to Fark rather than you, which I've also heard. As for the early sums, my guess is that at least one of them was discussed in private but never brought to IRON. Am I right, or are TOP members speaking out of their butts for the first time ever? Because I've never known them to do that. If I'm wrong, tell me what's up. Don't just give me an "Uhh... NO U!" It makes it look like you're just mad that I brought these dirty facts public. I can't wait to see those final terms. I expect every !@#$@#$ cent to go to alliances who deserve restitution, like GPA and GATO. But I'm sure it'll all end up in your pockets.

-Bama

You haven't brought any facts buddy. He said, they said, I heard, and well TOP says this don't count for anything. I have the facts, Gre, Fark, IPA, FCC, and MHA have the facts. You have nothing but propaganda to spew.

Do you really think being a bitter loser makes you privy to these talks? It doesn't.

[Alter Leader Nabla]

It seems some nations are clearly underestimating the damage we took.

Let's take Matt Miller. Since I like him and he is the pride of IRON.

Matt Miller had over 20 000 infra before the war, he was number #1 of the whole game, right now, Matt is around 3500 Infra, he roughly lost a bit less than 20,000 infra. I currently am at around 1000 infra, would I get out of this war tomorrow, I would still have to wait five days to get out of Nuclear Anarchy and I would clear a little over 3 mil.

I am a 700-days nation and so far I have been lucky in this war to fight moderate fighters, I haven't come accross a triple-update blitz team or anything of that sort. There are currently 29 pages of IRON nations under 1000 infra, that's 338 nations, approximately half of IRON. There aren't much warchests left.

That's what a 15 mil ns drop means.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

A very merciful peace. Hopefully this will end here.

[Alter Leader Nabla]

I just saw that we got peace as I was replying.

Well, time to pay reps.