Attention "The Phoenix Federation"

[Raken]

Sometimes I wonder how some of these people function in society.

[Gobb]

The Soldier disbandment, which was premature but they were vindicated by the RV posts in their assumption they would be hit with very hard reps.

How is it Karma's fault Soldier disbanded after getting white peace?

[Heyman]

Mogar and Tyga, you guys are both getting ridiculous. Stop.

I'd like to echo this.

Mogar: After reading this thread through, my respect for you has been affirmed in the best way possible. I'm proud to have an ally such as you,

and I now know that you feel the exact same way. However, enough is enough. Please cool down some, and think this through.

Tyga: There seems to be some hate directed at everyone and everything Karma(edit:and some non Karma, you silly tiger!) from our membership. It's only going to be natural in this war. Everybody's bitter. When that happens, people always ignore their own mistakes (us being a primary culprit). Although I'm not a part of the government, I'd like to apologize on behalf of my alliance for some of the heated "discussion" going around.

Edited May 17, 2009 by Heyman

[Mogar]

As I said before two wrongs (or more in this case) doesn't make a right. Even if nobody else repay reps it doesn't erease the fact that your alliance stole tech from STA when they were beaten down and even if you blame it on previous gov the fact that you don't want to make any ammends for it show that you don't have any big problem with it

My point is why should I make amends for it when others who stole far more tech aren't being called out for it, yet I am?

The part you don't seem to understand is when we say that claiming you believe in that in one paragraph and then defending TPF in the next paragraph is p ludicrous.

You seem to be trying to hold your enemies at a higher standard than your own allies.

I'm trying to hold the world to a higher standard, Karma has the ability to do so, so why shouldn't I ask?

Since you keep mentioning us and the Polar war, Mogar, let me remind you that in exchange for that tech we gave Polar something like $500m in aid.

I mentioned Grämlins paid for their tech, which is more honorable than what TOP did.

You were the one offering to repay reps, it wasn't my idea. Making it conditional on others doing so first kind of weakens your position as a moral warrior.

IRAN's share of the reps taken from the STA was 1000 tech and $25 million.

It just annoys me that people ignore their own allies actions and only call out their enemies when they do it, and that was actually more than I thought, though not surprising since I bet most of that tech went to Bat.

Mogar and Tyga, you guys are both getting ridiculous. Stop.

I do have a habit of enjoying debating a bit too much.

I'd like to echo this.

Mogar: After reading this thread through, my respect for you has been affirmed in the best way possible. I'm proud to have an ally such as you,

and I now know that you feel the exact same way. However, enough is enough. Please cool down some, and think this through.

I realize TPF isn't perfect, it just upsets me to have people claim moral high ground when they have done the same exact things.

OOC: I have to go out for a bit anyway, so I'll take my leave, it was enjoyable debating with you Tyga.

Edited May 17, 2009 by Mogar

[Krull]

How is it Karma's fault Soldier disbanded after getting white peace?

You insensitive $%&@.

What you don't get was that Soldier was pummeled, ok? Pummeled!

And then the Karma forces had the gal to just leave. That's right, just leave, giving them white peace. No apologies for trashing their pixels, no nothing.

I ask you, good man, how could you continue to operate as an alliance after all that.

I'm trying to hold the world to a higher standard, Karma has the ability to do so, so why shouldn't I ask?

Because your own allies had the power to do that for a long, long time and you didn't ask them to do it.

Edited May 17, 2009 by Krull

[Heyman]

I'd like to echo this.

Mogar: After reading this thread through, my respect for you has been affirmed in the best way possible. I'm proud to have an ally such as you,

and I now know that you feel the exact same way. However, enough is enough. Please cool down some, and think this through.

Tyga: There seems to be some hate directed at everyone and everything Karma(edit:and some non Karma, you silly tiger!) from our membership. It's only going to be natural in this war. Everybody's bitter. When that happens, people always ignore their own mistakes (us being a primary culprit). Although I'm not a part of the government, I'd like to apologize on behalf of my alliance for some of the heated "discussion" going around.

Quoting for attention.

[Mogar]

Because your own allies had the power to do that for a long, long time and you didn't ask them to do it.

How do you know? I've always had the opinions I'm stating now, this coalition is the most likely to actually listen to what I think the world should do, so I've been expressing such.

Quoting for attention.

Stop posting when I'm posting and I'd be able to see it easier.

Edited May 17, 2009 by Mogar

[Angrator]

How do you know? I've always had the opinions I'm stating now, this coalition is the most likely to actually listen to what I think the world should do, so I've been expressing such.

Stop posting when I'm posting and I'd be able to see it easier.

This is one of the reasons we never should have got rid of the old spam forums.

[Heyman]

Stop posting when I'm posting and I'd be able to see it easier.

Maybe I should switch to firewire.

[D34th]

This thread is amusing ^^

[Krull]

How do you know? I've always had the opinions I'm stating now, this coalition is the most likely to actually listen to what I think the world should do, so I've been expressing such.

Welp, I'm basing my opinion on you still being allied to them even though you apparently have conflicting and irreconcilable beliefs and values.

[Shurukian]

I'm not talking about you. You are demanding TPF get white peace because they got beaten down good. Considering TPF's (and OPP's) penchant for picking clean the bones of defeated alliances after they are beaten down (as badly or worse than TPF's current beatdown), why should they be given such leniency?

Okay, I'm not necessarily addressing just this post, but a few others that have been calling out TPF and OPP's past actions.

First of all, when you look at TPF, they've seen an almost complete government switch to the former Elysium government. The same with the members in OPP. OPP currently consists of TSI, 64Digits, and possibly IRAN (I don't know what's up with that situation). In the last war, most of TSI government were at TGE. IRAN has obviously had a large government change, and 64Digits has all but ceased to exist on the political scene since HoT got wiped off the face of Bob. So for the past actions of OPP, I don't know what they are, and frankly, I don't care, because the past is the past. I refused to be defined by my treaties rather than who we are as an alliance. In the four wars that I've led alliances through, I've never asked for reparations, and unless someone does something horribly disrespectful, that trend will continue. I see no reason to get funds out of an alliance that you've beaten.

I didn't join OPP because of the amazing history it had. I didn't know much about the history at all. TPF was an ally of TGE, and someone I naturally went to. However, anyone that knows me well can say I'm very much so a hippy, friendly, whatever, person. If TPF were continuing their past trend of actions, I wouldn't be in OPP today. However, I have faith in mhawk, and the reason I sand so staunchly behind TPF is because of how much I believe in his actions and ideals for TPF. If you'd like to call him the same as the past governments, I'd ask for examples. If the current TPF was out to hurt everything in sight, or the current OPP was, then I'm sure things would be a lot different. The idea of blaming an alliance for their past has always been an odd one to me. GOONS has reformed, but with new leadership. Should they be held to their past actions? As soon as mhawk does something to warrant the hate that TPF receives, I'll pack up my bags and find some new friends. But I don't see that happening any time soon.

As for the peace mode issue, as in the OP, I think it's been fairly well explained that it's a tactic of war. Hell, I hit peace mode to get nukes and build up my warchest. It's amazing what five days in peace mode can do for you in a war. Especially if you're on the losing end.

I think everyone's fought a nice fight here, and see no reason for half the trolling and fighting that's going on in this thread. But maybe that's just me.

Fakeedit: Again Tyga, not specifically directed at you, yours was just the last post I read that mentioned the issues that were bugging me.

[Heyman]

Welp, I'm basing my opinion on you still being allied to them even though you apparently have conflicting and irreconcilable beliefs and values.

If you would kindly.

[Bob Janova]

Alliances have always been held responsible for their past. In the case of TPF, the people who are at the centre of that (Slayer, Jbone, OBB, TBB) have either left the world entirely or are still in TPF, so I don't see why the alliance should get a clean pass for its actions.

[Shurukian]

Alliances have always been held responsible for their past. In the case of TPF, the people who are at the centre of that (Slayer, Jbone, OBB, TBB) have either left the world entirely or are still in TPF, so I don't see why the alliance should get a clean pass for its actions.

Yes, I understand that alliances have been held responsible for their pasts. What I'm saying, is that I see no good reason why. All it does is hamper growth and change. An alliance should be judged by their current leadership, and I see nothing destructive and terrible that mhawk has done.

[Coven]

I am very proud of the way The Phoenix Federation has fought in this war and the way we have stood tall against the hordes coming for us. Some day we will figure out how to get rid of all those tribbles.

o/ Kilkenny

The onslaught of tribbles shall be broken. We just are not sure how yet.

Edited May 17, 2009 by Airikr

[Kindom of Goon]

It just annoys me that people ignore their own allies actions and only call out their enemies when they do it, and that was actually more than I thought, though not surprising since I bet most of that tech went to Bat.

They don't ignore the action of their own allies, they just discuss/argue about things in private instead. When it comes to enemies there is no such obligation.

[Nintenderek]

Mogar, you seem to have missed my post earlier, so I'll bring it up again, because I'm interested in your response.

Nobody is insulting them because they are in peace mode. They are being insulted because they are hypocrites because they are in peace mode. There is a difference. As I've stated, too many times did they insult people for using peace mode, and now they are using it. I don't know about you, but that speaks loudly to me about their hypocrisy.

[Brotherington]

Almost all of these nations have been in warmode and fought. A little less incompetence on our part and they would never have been able to escape.

[TehChron]

I'd like to echo this.

Mogar: After reading this thread through, my respect for you has been affirmed in the best way possible. I'm proud to have an ally such as you,

and I now know that you feel the exact same way. However, enough is enough. Please cool down some, and think this through.

How can you respect Mogar?! The man's just spewing Devil's advocacy in the hope of getting attention. He doesn't actually believe anything he's saying here. I mean, ffs, Didnt you read his Q&A thread?

He doesn't have any integrity. Whatsoever. He only does things here for the sole sake of getting attention and amusing himself, I can quote him saying as much. How you can possibly fall for this is frankly baffling, say what you like, but Tyga is right to call him out for his shenanigans. Mogar is trolling by trying to make himself look magnanimous while dodging responsibility for any of his claims or statements or so called "beliefs".

How do you not see that?

[SirWilliam]

The reactions from some of the Karma Coalition are interesting as well, though, especially from his [EDFD's] own governent .

Oh?

I'm tickled by the fact that a thread made in jest to presumably lure TPF nations out of peace mode has led to overreactions from the opposition and serious debate from all sides. Can't we all just return to killing each other!?

[BamaBuc]

I think Brotherington and SirWilliam just about said it. Come on guys. TPF, STA, MK, everyone. How the hell did this get to 15 pages? It's not even a big deal, just a temporary rebuilding measure. We've all beaten this horse to death. Let's to back to fighting.

-Bama

[HalfEmpty]

Mogar, you seem to have missed my post earlier, so I'll bring it up again, because I'm interested in your response.

That's true.

Don't you really hate it when Mogar miss's your mail.

Also.... 15 minutes is up.

Bai!

Whoopsie..... Moma will make you samishces so don't worry about endawar.

Edited May 17, 2009 by HalfEmpty

[neneko]

My point is why should I make amends for it when others who stole far more tech aren't being called out for it, yet I am?

They are being called out on it. Right now I'm talking to you though. Whenever you're ready to repay the tech and money you so sorely regret stealing from STA you have my coordination services.

edit: and since I know what your reply will be. No, it's not okay to steal things just because others are doing it too.

Edited May 17, 2009 by neneko

[Windsor]

They chose a side, and they are getting stomped. This is one of the liabilities of choosing a side and sticking with it. If they thought that they were exempt from suffering the consequences that sometimes come with choosing a side, then that in itself is irresponsible. If you're not a gambler, then join GPA. If you gamble and lose, then it's time to pay up. If you don't pay up, then you're simply a sore loser.

At this point, those that are losing are trying to redefine winning vs. losing. What, exactly, constitutes a defeat? We know that surrendering and reaching peace terms is the most concrete way of establishing this. However, regardless of whether or not any official surrender is executed, one certain and irrefutable means of measuring a defeat is the forceful removal of an alliance's ability to influence the community.

Once that's done, defeat is clear.... regardless of what actions the defeated alliance takes. In this case, it doesn't matter if they choose to live in hippie mode or not. They are being defeated not only militarily, but politically as well. And many would argue that the latter takes precedence.