Justice For Traitors

[Nobama]

Yep I understand that. It's why my queries are directed only to him and the other dude who decided to comment on Margrave's opinion.

Edit: To be clear, I think it's a little rich for him to call on Karma to impose harsh terms and not to ask the same of his own alliance. Margrave obviously may be able to provide us with justification for why he hasn't or perhaps the case is that he has done so in private, I don't know.

I don't speak for Margrave, but I'm of the opinion that the NSO was involved simply to repay debts to the best allies infra can buy. We are not Karma, and we do not claim to be the vengeance of the Cyberverse cleansing the CoC of their crimes.

I agree with Marg, for the most part. I'm disappointed to see "Karma" acting more like mildly bad luck.

[Nobama]

more like it was done to show the NPO they screwed up big time with this one.

Good work, Mogar. Keep to the official story.

[enderland]

Have you actually read the cancellation, or did you hear about it from the people screaming "cowards"?

More from the logs that showed either one of two things -

1) Someone spent the time to craft many MANY hours worth of logs that look quite legit

2) Most of the Coward Coalition were seriously considering not fighting with NPO

Also, considering how many of them were k-banned from #nsa, and how many gov members from those alliances left to go fight, uh, yeah, I'm pretty sure that the cancellations were legit.

[Caliph]

1) They didn't completely break their oaths with NPO. They were inevitably bound to fight under One Vision and the Continuum, despite the cancellation and suspension of individual treaties with Pacifica.

2) Karma is not Continuum; Karma is not One Vision; Karma is not Pacifica. We are proving the point that Pacifica has oppressed Digiterra through its policies and aggressive stance, which is only because it is insecure of its own position if the rest of Digiterra decided to band up and fight against her. As you can tell, this is happening now. The rest of Continuum and One Vision follow along on Pacifica through treaties, regardless of whether the alliances believe Pacifica is right in its actions.

3) Karma's values are consistent with what we believe is right and what we believe is wrong. We believe that alliances that must fight in defense of Pacifica by treaty do not deserve a punishment that Pacifica is all too well-known to give.

Because of the above, Karma grants leniency to these supporting alliances.

Posts like these prove you do not understand your enemy.

While you refuse to let yourself perform the same actions that the Hegemony has performed on many, many alliances in the past because you claim to some abstract morality, you are forgetting one crucial thing; the NPO would impose the harshest surrender terms on these alliances if the situation was reversed.

In fact, it has been prove that the NPO has already given incredibly harsh surrender terms in the past in beat down wars.

So why then are you preaching about giving the NPO lenient terms, terms that the NPO would deem as not sufficient to give to you in the same situation?

Treat your enemies the same way they would treat you. The NPO will not change, they will come back with a vengeance, they have made a list of alliances that they will target, and they will begin anew, by coming out with a silver tongue, preaching how they have learned their lesson until they are in a position of power and have the treaties required to either bloc any Karma coalition or to make such a fight an even one.

The NPO has decided to be cutthroat in their dealings with the rest of us, and even cutthroat against its own allies with their betrayal of their allies. The biggest mistake of this war would be to let the NPO have an ounce of freedom. They must be treated as they have treated \m/, as they have treated FAN and Vox and Polaris and NAAC and all the other former allies of NPO that were destroyed by the NPO and those who were on the receiving end of NPO's curbstomps.

The NPO has achieved its success because they are willing to do what is necessary to curb any threat. They got to where they are now by collosal miscalculations on their part, however they had achieved unipolarity, a world under their rule, for 2 years by their policies. Clearly they will do so again unless they are crippled.

Terms for the NPO should be as follows:

1: NPO gives 1 million tech to the alliances at war with them. 50% of which must be paid by the current top 20% of the alliance.

2: All NPO nations in peace mode will withdraw from peace mode and be sentenced to a one term ZI

3: The only aid anyone in NPO is allowed to receive must be from other NPO nations.

4: Trotskies Revenge must issue an apology for the agressive actions of the NPO to start this war. Any recall of this apology means a violation of the peace agreement and the signatories are immediately plunged back into a state of war.

5: NPO nations must have only have, at any given time, a maximum of 25% of their civilian population as soldiers.

6: Tanks, factories, missile defense, satellite, barracks, guerilla camps, SDI's, Pentagons, CIA's, WRC's, FAB's, and Air defense networks are forbidden for all NPO nations for a period of 6 months.

7: Disbandment will not dissolve the NPO's current nations from having to comply with these terms.

You get my drift. Harsh terms. No white peace.

This isn't about slapping NPO on the wrist, this is about retribution. If the tables were reversed you can be absolutely certain the NPO would not hold back on giving out harsh surrender terms. See the War of the Coalition for the latest example.

[HellAngel]

so, you took up a banner of a group you knew was actively harming your treaty partner in og. from the lux aeterna:

karma 'intended to do harm' (well, duh, it is a war after all) to the alliances they were fighting, including old guard, and by taking up the 'karma' banner for yourself, you understood fully that you were explicitly joining a coalition which was causing direct harm to old guard.

correct me if you think i am wrong, i am curious to see your stance on this before pressing this further.

The same could be said vice versa. So if you want to be 100% correct, you have to accuse OG of breaking it, too.

Also, we were not fighting OG. Directly or indirectly.

Now please stop lecturing us about our own treaty and go back to dealing with your own business. Neither Gremlins nor OG had a problem with how this war was handled on Citadel side. OG knows that we used all our leverage to get them out unharmed. War is a dirty business and the treaty web everyone created came back to bite us in the butt.

[D34th]

Posts like these prove you do not understand your enemy.

While you refuse to let yourself perform the same actions that the Hegemony has performed on many, many alliances in the past because you claim to some abstract morality, you are forgetting one crucial thing; the NPO would impose the harshest surrender terms on these alliances if the situation was reversed.

In fact, it has been prove that the NPO has already given incredibly harsh surrender terms in the past in beat down wars.

So why then are you preaching about giving the NPO lenient terms, terms that the NPO would deem as not sufficient to give to you in the same situation?

Treat your enemies the same way they would treat you. The NPO will not change, they will come back with a vengeance, they have made a list of alliances that they will target(1), and they will begin anew, by coming out with a silver tongue, preaching how they have learned their lesson until they are in a position of power and have the treaties required to either bloc any Karma coalition or to make such a fight an even one.

The NPO has decided to be cutthroat in their dealings with the rest of us, and even cutthroat against its own allies with their betrayal of their allies. The biggest mistake of this war would be to let the NPO have an ounce of freedom. They must be treated as they have treated \m/, as they have treated FAN and Vox and Polaris and NAAC and all the other former allies of NPO that were destroyed by the NPO and those who were on the receiving end of NPO's curbstomps.(2)

The NPO has achieved its success because they are willing to do what is necessary to curb any threat. They got to where they are now by collosal miscalculations on their part, however they had achieved unipolarity, a world under their rule, for 2 years by their policies. Clearly they will do so again unless they are crippled.(3)

Terms for the NPO should be as follows:

1: NPO gives 1 million tech to the alliances at war with them. 50% of which must be paid by the current top 20% of the alliance.

2: All NPO nations in peace mode will withdraw from peace mode and be sentenced to a one term ZI

3: The only aid anyone in NPO is allowed to receive must be from other NPO nations.

4: Trotskies Revenge must issue an apology for the agressive actions of the NPO to start this war. Any recall of this apology means a violation of the peace agreement and the signatories are immediately plunged back into a state of war.

5: NPO nations must have only have, at any given time, a maximum of 25% of their civilian population as soldiers.

6: Tanks, factories, missile defense, satellite, barracks, guerilla camps, SDI's, Pentagons, CIA's, WRC's, FAB's, and Air defense networks are forbidden for all NPO nations for a period of 6 months.

7: Disbandment will not dissolve the NPO's current nations from having to comply with these terms.

You get my drift. Harsh terms. No white peace.

This isn't about slapping NPO on the wrist, this is about retribution(4). If the tables were reversed you can be absolutely certain the NPO would not hold back on giving out harsh surrender terms. See the War of the Coalition for the latest example.

1-War still going on and are you already afraid of what NPO will do in future?

2-If you do what NPO used to do with their enemies what will difference "KARMA" of "NPO"? And if you think that treat an enemy with this kind of behavior is acceptable why are you crucifying NPO?

3-Of course harsh terms will prevent NPO of rebuild again, luck to NpO and MK and you will see what I'm saying. But if you are afraid of NPO coming to get you I can guarantee for you with that harsh terms who you proposed they will come to you soon or later. Harsh terms can't stop anyone but can make them hold grudges against you.

4-ret⋅ri⋅bu⋅tion

Synonyms:

1, 2. retaliation, repayment, recompense. See revenge.

Finaly I see people starting to talk bout revenge not justice.

Edit: I'm not advocating lenient terms or white peace for NPO, give harsh terms for them if you want, just stop to use hypocrite excuses to do that.

Edited May 7, 2009 by D34th

[boscher]

1-War still going on and are you already afraid of what NPO will do in future?

2-If you do what NPO used to do with their enemies what will difference "KARMA" of "NPO"? And if you think that treat an enemy with this kind of behavior is acceptable why are you crucifying NPO?

3-Of course harsh terms will prevent NPO of rebuild again, luck to NpO and MK and you will see what I'm saying. But if you are afraid of NPO coming to get you I can guarantee for you with that harsh terms who you proposed they will come to you soon or later. Harsh terms can't stop anyone but can make them hold grudges against you.

4-ret⋅ri⋅bu⋅tion

Synonyms:

1, 2. retaliation, repayment, recompense. See revenge.

Finaly I see people starting to talk bout revenge not justice.

Edit: I'm not advocating lenient terms or white peace for NPO, give harsh terms for them if you want, just stop to use hypocrite excuses to do that.

Like they will not try to come for us if we gave them white peace

[Margrave]

I just had a stunning, if obvious, realization: The same general group of people who made the decision to be all merciful and such to NPO in GW1 are making the influential decisions/inspiring those decisions for Karma. Kids, it's history repeating itself. I can't wait to see who makes up Initiative 2.0. [/end sarcasm].

[Xiphosis]

I only wish I'd met you back during the actual WUT days. Much love Margrave.

[Doitzel]

I just had a stunning, if obvious, realization: The same general group of people who made the decision to be all merciful and such to NPO in GW1 are making the influential decisions/inspiring those decisions for Karma. Kids, it's history repeating itself. I can't wait to see who makes up Initiative 2.0. [/end sarcasm].

What? Many went to OBR and disappeared in inactivity; a couple are still there. Most of those people are long gone.

[SoxNation]

you are quoting an older post, in another thread i believe it was where i analyzed lux aeterna and am in agreement with your stance, while making the note that your treaty is quite the labyrinth of logic

however, i feel that, although you had no legal obligation to defend old guard and indeed did not make a technical violation of the treaty, that you still left an alliance which can only be implied( by the lux aeterna and its context of coming into being) was a 'friend' of the gremlins and indeed the other signatories of the lux aeterna, you left this friend not only to die on one side, but it could be argued that by entering on the other side you further helped to ensure they lost this war by adding to the might of the other 'side' and indeed flying under the same banner as those set out to harm old guard (unless i am mistaken and no part of citadel identifies itself as a component of 'karma'), and in my opinion protecting your allies is more important than harming your enemies. i would have to read the treaty again to see if it is a technical violation in terms of 'indirect aggression' against old guard, a task i can't say will be a short one

Old Guard frankly new the outcome when they decided to honor Q. They didn't ask us to defend them per Citadel, just like we wouldn't ask them to defend us per it for alliances declaring on us. But we were prepared to act if people decided to give them harsh terms on not let up on war once they were defeated, and we are already helping them rebuild.

[Margrave]

Old Guard frankly new the outcome when they decided to honor Q. They didn't ask us to defend them per Citadel, just like we wouldn't ask them to defend us per it for alliances declaring on us. But we were prepared to act if people decided to give them harsh terms on not let up on war once they were defeated, and we are already helping them rebuild.

Cool story Bro, but I was born into the mentality of friends>infra and that's the way I'll stay.

[Denial]

I just had a stunning, if obvious, realization: The same general group of people who made the decision to be all merciful and such to NPO in GW1 are making the influential decisions/inspiring those decisions for Karma. Kids, it's history repeating itself. I can't wait to see who makes up Initiative 2.0. [/end sarcasm].

Actually, the people responsible for that travesty (hi, Dr. Hrmmm!) are mostly departed from this game, and those remaining aren't involved on the Pacifican front in any way whatsoever. And before anyone mentions my own history, yes, I was the LUEnited Nations Minister of Foreign Affairs leading up to and during the First Great War, but real life obligations unfortunately kept me out of the peace negotiations - something I still wish I could change. Perhaps I could have added to the small collection of people that actually had a clue (looking at those such as kamichi ).

[D34th]

Like they will not try to come for us if we gave them white peace

Can you read?

Edit: I'm not advocating lenient terms or white peace for NPO, give harsh terms for them if you want, just stop to use hypocrite excuses to do that.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

Cool story Bro, but I was born into the mentality of friends>infra and that's the way I'll stay.

A well-loaded spinball implying that we must feel the opposite.

Entirely ignores the fact that we had lots of friends involved, not just them.

We are doing our best to do what we can for ALL of our friends, on both sides. While you are, as always, trying to stir up bloodlust and chaös.

[boscher]

Can you read?

Im just saying that the "They will come for us if we are too harsh" argument doesnt make any sense.

[D34th]

Im just saying that the "They will come for us if we are too harsh" argument doesnt make any sense.

I didn't used this argument either, I just said that harsh terms will not prevent NPO to seek for revenge, if after this war there are a possibility of NPO seek for revenge, giving them harsh terms will just make the possibility become a fact.

[Denial]

I didn't used this argument either, I just said that harsh terms will not prevent NPO to seek for revenge, if after this war there are a possibility of NPO seek for revenge, giving them harsh terms will just make the possibility become a fact.

So will giving them white peace. Or sensible, fair terms. Or laying down our arms right now and dancing to a Rihanna song with Pacifican IOs.

It is an absolute certainty that they will be coming for those they have perceived to have wronged or damaged them. And I welcome it.

[Homura]

Terms for the NPO should be as follows:

1: NPO gives 1 million tech to the alliances at war with them. 50% of which must be paid by the current top 20% of the alliance.

2: All NPO nations in peace mode will withdraw from peace mode and be sentenced to a one term ZI

3: The only aid anyone in NPO is allowed to receive must be from other NPO nations.

4: Trotskies Revenge must issue an apology for the agressive actions of the NPO to start this war. Any recall of this apology means a violation of the peace agreement and the signatories are immediately plunged back into a state of war.

5: NPO nations must have only have, at any given time, a maximum of 25% of their civilian population as soldiers.

6: Tanks, factories, missile defense, satellite, barracks, guerilla camps, SDI's, Pentagons, CIA's, WRC's, FAB's, and Air defense networks are forbidden for all NPO nations for a period of 6 months.

7: Disbandment will not dissolve the NPO's current nations from having to comply with these terms.

While NPO is more than capable of producing 1 million tech within about 7 months at the very most, asking their top 200 to pay out 500,000 could take well over a year. Luckily for them, you're not running peace talks with them.

[Doitzel]

So will giving them white peace. Or sensible, fair terms. Or laying down our arms right now and dancing to a Rihanna song with Pacifican IOs.

It is an absolute certainty that they will be coming for those they have perceived to have wronged or damaged them. And I welcome it.

So do I, because it just confirms their inability to conceive of their own wrong-doing, their inability to learn, and their inability to leave the past where it belongs.

[Dochartaigh]

Cool story Bro, but I was born into the mentality of friends>infra and that's the way I'll stay.

wait wha???? so you obviously failed at reading comprehension, or are just a fool who did not read what you quoted. where does it state anything about the Citadel giving a damn about their infra? so please, unless you know the ongoings inside of Cit, just stfu. you are seriously becoming an annoying individual and where i used to have respect for you, it is clear that it was not deserved as you spout propaganda faster than any Vox member but in much much poorer form. At least Vox can state they have some knowledge behind their propaganda.

you using freinds>infra in this situation is pathetic and useless. that would work if ya know, most of Cit did not despise NPO or other alliances in the Hegemony. OG were friendly with them and chose to honor their treaty, though as good friends, decided to not call on us as they knew we were rolling with the other side.

so please go back to your lair of fail and stay there before you attempt to call out any alliance in Cit.

this coming from the person who demands that harsh terms be handed out to the rest, while his own alliance gave white peace. yeah, you have very little room to talk. if you wanted harsh terms, then you should leave NSO and join an alliance you think will give harsh terms and demand it from them. Otherwise, just shut your yap and yell at us to do what you want. I ain't about to do your own dirty work. If you want it done, do it your damn self.

/me walks off mumbling about the fool who called out Gremlins and the rest of Citadel.

[Micheal Malone]

Almost 20 pages... see what happens when real life gets in the way?

If you go and steal other's lands, then they will come and steal your's.

You think if Karma ends the cycle we will continue on the path that the Hegemony and most notably the NPO has set as a standard of CN? It's not going to happen. Karma's stand is impressing us as a matter of fact and if they keep it up then I can gaurantee a lot of their new policies are going to change CN.

If you're the more "moral" side than be the bigger man. It's easy to stoop down to the level of those who once opressed you but to rise about it and become the bigger person is far greater.

It's nice to see you sucking up to whatever side you think will endeavor your presence in this game longer... Weren't you espousing the demise of Karma and all those associated with it only days ago?

[auto98]

You actually make the case in the OP for the 1v & tC alliances being extraordinarily brave - at the start of the war had they gone in it would appear that they would have won (at least at the time), needing no bravery.

When they actually went in it was already apparent that a loss was likely

How that is cowardice, I am not sure.

[Cirrus]

How that is cowardice, I am not sure.

So... stupidity then? Or what? Throwing the game because even the rest of Q and 1V wanted NPO to lose? What's the explanation?

I'm not trying to flame. Just trying to clarify where you're going with that point.

[Proxian Empire]

What? Many went to OBR and disappeared in inactivity; a couple are still there. Most of those people are long gone.

I believe he is referring to Archon and AirMe.