The Gap between Perception and reallity.

[shahenshah]

- The Start -

I must completely disagree with people who are saying that Hegemony is using "Lenient peace terms" lines as a propaganda tool to get off the hook. Some maybe, but all? No, there is a 'perception and reality' gap amongst the people of Hegemony for Karma. The source of such gap has been an year long consistent posts on OWF, ranging from some excellent write-ups to worst levels of trolling. These Posts only claimed absolute moral high grounds, these posts had absolute disagreements with NPO's actions, these posts viciously attacked almost all of NPO's policies, they always found a 'moral flaw' whether the actions be right or wrong. (See GATO).

Before, these words created a perception that Karma would not be what NPO was, and given the ferocious nature of discussions on OWF, not even close. That is how the perceptions were created, that Karma was morally opposite to NPO in absolute sense. You cannot blame the people of Hegemony for such perceptions. After all, if one is to have an opposite opinion of everything other does, it is but natural to assume such.

Mind you, by being morally opposite, I do not say being right or wrong, that is not for me to assume. Ethical relativism is Phail on many fronts.

We find that majority of 'Excellent write-ups to worst levels of trolling' came mostly from vocal general members, and not from the people in leadership positions, they however did indicate to endorse the ideas on OWF. And so the people believe the views of highly vocal people are the views of the leadership, however that as seen here is not necessarily the case. As we saw some people of Karma, again, very vocal ones demanding end to NPO's existence and their leaders rebuffing those. However, due to an arguable principle that exists on Bobistan, Govts are held responsible for people, and vice versa, such principle, wether right or wrong also helped formed the perception of Karma, its general members and its leadership.

- The Intermission -

Well, as I was saying War comes, reality kicks in, and things aren't exactly as what the perceptions were...and so there is a gap, and people will come to OWF and query about the gaps and try to align their perceptions with the reality. This is not 'propaganda from Hegemony'. This is the outcome of ferocious chest thumping by self-claimed Moral champions for past one year [(Not the leaders, but I here refer to general, but vocal members (and probably in minority) ]

It is going to be only helpful for both sides if such gaps are not created and querying and discussing will only help make it better. Painting it as 'propaganda' adds another factor to it. I shall call it 'perceived reality' It is not entirely perceptions, it is not entirely reality. It is a mix of both. And what propaganda card does is, it increases the perceived reality's share in the bottle of 'perceptions and reality about Karma" and muddles up everything and people, instead of finding answers to their gaps get played by 'propaganda card' and due to that they jump to conclusion Karma is just as good/bad as NPO.

My perceived reality due to absence of entire information on current situation is that NPO will not get lenient terms. They will be tipping more towards the other half of the scale, not necessarily entirely towards the end of it. And the terms would be offered after NPO is subjected to more beating. That I believe is more closer to what the actually reality maybe than 'White peace'.

- The End -

-

In the end, I only ask that don't let my alliance affiliation be a source of bias towards my above opinion. Mind you, I am proud of being an IRONer..from forever to forever.

-

Edit: Ya, I figured the bad spellings and grammar, TY

Edited May 3, 2009 by shahenshah

[Alterego]

True, they spent a long time painting a picture of themselves that looks a certain way. Now they are in full reverse and I for one am wondering why I wasted any time at all reading all their posts about morality for the last few months because it all turned out to be lies.

[Tygaland]

True, they spent a long time painting a picture of themselves that looks a certain way. Now they are in full reverse and I for one am wondering why I wasted any time at all reading all their posts about morality for the last few months because it all turned out to be lies.

And your evidence of this is?

[Bob Janova]

Morality is not about giving aggressive alliances a slap on the wrist and white peace; as I said in another thread, it is about fairness. You can see the difference between Karma and Hegemony in the peace agreements already reached with several alliances who entered due to obligations (compare those to say the treatment of IAA and CSN in the Hegemony-GATO war). If the NPO does not get off easily, it is because they started this whole thing and have a large list of 'crimes' to atone for.

[Tulafaras]

frankly i have seldom seen a more idiotic post than yours.

Seriously the PR machine your side is running currently is so bad i don't know wether to laugh or cry. There is a wide gulf between the perception of some ideal and reality, yes that is always the case, but you are completly missing the point of what karma stands for in the mind of the general populace.

Most people on the side of Karma want a change in the way CN operates on a global level. They do not want to spend all their time watching over their shoulder in fear that the big bad alliance on top will decide they are too dangerous and that they need to be curbstomped. That is the motivation for most of us.

There are a number of policies specific alliances on the Karma side abhor, and those will almost certainly be abolished now (e.g. PZI) but aside from those most alliances do not have a problem with reparations after a lost war. Decent terms have always been a part of the game and most alliances have had to pay some at one point or another. We do not expect to be granted white peace when we loose a war so why should we be expected to grant it when we win one?

Seriously, please take your whining somewhere else and come back when you have gotten a clue.

[shahenshah]

True, they spent a long time painting a picture of themselves that looks a certain way. Now they are in full reverse and I for one am wondering why I wasted any time at all reading all their posts about morality for the last few months because it all turned out to be lies.

Hi Alterego, I have a slightly different opinion to yours..the difference is subtle but outcome can vary alot. Again, I feel you have been misled by people who have little or no control in policies driven by Karma.

The problem is the people with no authority to act spent the time painting the picture. They were in disagreement with their leadership probably then and so they are now, my only issue is that when such vast claims of morality were being made, so great even the Angels would shy away, that some more rational people did not step forward to indicate and say 'Listen, we're going to be much better than NPO, but we are not angels and please don't perceive us as such", those attempts are only being made now and that makes it look like 'Oh, so now when time came to act on your claims, you say this?".

Prime example IMO of creating mis perceptions about Karma is "Disband" NPO fanbois. They have been repeatedly reminded by people in their own leadership position that Karma is not going to support such extreme actions, If I remember rightly, I at least saw Tyga's and Ejayrazz's post in relation to this. So there is even a gap perhaps within the body of Karma and leadership. But everyone is allowed free expression however we must discount the opinions of nobodies to nobodies and not elevate it to such level that it needs clarifications and attempts such as this.

No one who matters claimed to be angel. Karma is probably in the most excellent position to set new precedents for the next generation of wars and again, any one who matters does not really believes NPO will be given a white peace...and if one looks at it rationally, that is probably the most likely outcome. Karma needs to be understood for what it is by the words of people who run the show for it, and not by others. It is unfortunate that the voice of those who run the show could not be heard amidst the noise created by people who were directly or indirectly affiliated to them.

frankly i have seldom seen a more idiotic post than yours.

Seriously the PR machine your side is running currently is so bad i don't know wether to laugh or cry. There is a wide gulf between the perception of some ideal and reality, yes that is always the case, but you are completly missing the point of what karma stands for in the mind of the general populace.

Most people on the side of Karma want a change in the way CN operates on a global level. They do not want to spend all their time watching over their shoulder in fear that the big bad alliance on top will decide they are too dangerous and that they need to be curbstomped. That is the motivation for most of us.

There are a number of policies specific alliances on the Karma side abhor, and those will almost certainly be abolished now (e.g. PZI) but aside from those most alliances do not have a problem with reparations after a lost war. Decent terms have always been a part of the game and most alliances have had to pay some at one point or another. We do not expect to be granted white peace when we loose a war so why should we be expected to grant it when we win one?

Seriously, please take your whining somewhere else and come back when you have gotten a clue.

Actually I was trying to lessen the gap of misunderstanding between the general membership of the people, which means trying to understand my opposition better. By the tone of it, I do not think I am the one whining or trying hard or desperately to make a point in a burst of emotions.

There is no PR machine backing here, but I appreciate that you elevate my attempt to a level of such organizational backing. I have also mentally noted your point about living in Fear. However, here I am not attempting to address what Karma or others feel about NPO, but rather, what Karma and others feel about Karma. However, I shall work on your point for future writings, you can always PM me in order for a good discussion.

Thank you for your points in most civilized manner.

Edited May 3, 2009 by shahenshah

[Tygaland]

Hi Alterego, I have a slightly different opinion to yours..the difference is subtle but outcome can vary alot. Again, I feel you have been misled by people who have little or no control in policies driven by Karma.

The problem is the people with no authority to act spent the time painting the picture. They were in disagreement with their leadership probably then and so they are now, my only issue is that when such vast claims of morality were being made, so great even the Angels would shy away, that some more rational people did not step forward to indicate and say 'Listen, we're going to be much better than NPO, but we are not angels and please don't perceive us as such", those attempts are only being made now and that makes it look like 'Oh, so now when time came to act on your claims, you say this?".

Prime example IMO of creating mis perceptions about Karma is "Disband" NPO fanbois. They have been repeatedly reminded by people in their own leadership position that Karma is not going to support such extreme actions, If I remember rightly, I at least saw Tyga's and Ejayrazz's post in relation to this. So there is even a gap perhaps within the body of Karma and leadership. But everyone is allowed free expression however we must discount the opinions of nobodies to nobodies and not elevate it to such level that it needs clarifications and attempts such as this.

No one who matters claimed to be angel. Karma is probably in the most excellent position to set new precedents for the next generation of wars and again, any one who matters does not really believes NPO will be given a white peace...and if one looks at it rationally, that is probably the most likely outcome. Karma needs to be understood for what it is by the words of people who run the show for it, and not by some others. It is unfortunate that the voice of those who run the show could not be heard amidst the noise created by other vocal people.

Let me swing this back on you and Alterego (and any other people from the Karma and NPO are just as bad as each other camp) for a moment.

Do you honestly believe NPO deserves white peace?

Do you believe it is in the best interests of Karma to give the NPO white peace?

Do you think that the NPO, having been given white peace and an early out of this war, would then use that as a launching pad for an assault on the splintered Karma alliances or use that chance to reform themselves and become a less aggressive alliance in the Cyberverse?

Because, these are questions Karma has to answer when they do go to the table with peace terms for the NPO.

You can go on about white peace which was never, ever mentioned with regards to the NPO by Karma and is merely the construct of vivid imaginations on the Hegemony side, but without honestly answering those questions you cannot begin to fully comprehend the situation we are all in now.

[shahenshah]

Let me swing this back on you and Alterego (and any other people from the Karma and NPO are just as bad as each other camp) for a moment.

Do you honestly believe NPO deserves white peace?

Do you believe it is in the best interests of Karma to give the NPO white peace?

Do you think that the NPO, having been given white peace and an early out of this war, would then use that as a launching pad for an assault on the splintered Karma alliances or use that chance to reform themselves and become a less aggressive alliance in the Cyberverse?

Because, these are questions Karma has to answer when they do go to the table with peace terms for the NPO.

You can go on about white peace which was never, ever mentioned with regards to the NPO by Karma and is merely the construct of vivid imaginations on the Hegemony side, but without honestly answering those questions you cannot begin to fully comprehend the situation we are all in now.

Tygaland, You have swung nothing back at my way, If you would only take a 2nd look at the text that you quoted:

any one who matters does not really believes NPO will be given a white peace...and if one looks at it rationally, that is probably the most likely outcome.

Again, I dont believe white peace was on cards, and that is what I am trying to communicate that is it is wrong to have such perception. However, I have indicated why such perceptions came into existence in first place. No, no one ever explicitly said NPO will be given white peace when the time came, if such was the case, then it would not be 'mis perception' right.

Thank You.

Edited May 3, 2009 by shahenshah

[Tygaland]

Tygaland, You have swung nothing back at my way, If you would only take a 2nd look at the text that you quoted:

Again, I dont believe white peace was on cards, and that is what I am trying to communicate that is it is wrong to have such perception. However, I have indicated why such perceptions came into existence in first place. No, no one ever explicitly said NPO will be given white peace when the time came, if such was the case, then it would not be 'mis perception' right.

Thank You.

You could still answer the questions.

[hizzy]

I think you guys (Tyga and shahenshah) are arguing about agreeing with eachother.... just sayin'

[shahenshah]

I think you guys (Tyga and shahenshah) are arguing about agreeing with eachother.... just sayin'

You have the ability to steal thoughts. You are mostly right, Tyga what are you doing?

I have answered I think all of the questions in original post:

My perceived reality due to absence of entire information on current situation is that NPO will not get lenient terms. They will be tipping more towards the other half of the scale, not necessarily entirely towards the end of it. And the terms would be offered after NPO is subjected to more beating. That I believe is more closer to what the actually reality maybe than 'White peace'.

and in the post that followed and the post that followed that:

any one who matters does not really believes NPO will be given a white peace...and if one looks at it rationally, that is probably the most likely outcome.

Regarding whether if NPO deserves such terms, personally, I am not comfortable with how the War started. If I was in Karma, and NPO & allies would be getting the terms, I'd look at the list of my own own allies and point fingers at certain ones who I thought were as enabling as the ones getting the terms.

About the counter-attack on battered Karma alliances, I do not think the political situation allows NPO to act in such manners, none of their present allies agreed with what happened. This time, the internal pressures within NPO allies got them the support, I do not feel such will be the case next time. Will NPO be less aggressive or more, I think that depends how aggressive the new standards set. If they are low, then NPO don't have room to engage in aggressive manners, if they are high, they have alot of room.

Edit;

Edit: Tyga, I have answered all your questions now, some of which were *already answered*, I can only request you allow the discussion in OP to be continued rather than my personal opinions on NPO, I do however feel very much touched by you asking such.

--

Edited May 3, 2009 by shahenshah

[SirDog]

The problem with all this discussion about "Karma" is that noone is particularly correct or incorrect. Because Karma is not a bloc, there is no charter for people to be guided by, which consequently acts as a catalyst for everyone putting their 0.02%. Now undoubtedly everyone has their own spin on it. NPO et al cry hypocrisy whilst Karma cries fairness. And within those "Karma" alliances is a vast array of ideas of what they want to see happen to NPO et al. Hence the disparity and confusion when one Karma person posts an opinion stating White Peace and another wanting Reps. The continuous banter between both sides is sprayed across the OWF in numerous threads between posters who attempt to articulate their point whilst negating their opposition. "Karma" is being defined in every thread and post with no particular succsss as there isn't a definition (a Charter). I kind of wish people would stop trying to define it with these text walls (no offence to the OP as there are many many others) as we all can put different tilts on what "Karma" is. To me "Karma" is just a brand name, it really should not be analysed. I never sat down and analysed other alliance names or bloc names as they are just a brand name. However, I do read the charter or treaty for greater understanding.

In my opinion, I just see this current event as a group of alliances, who collectively, are demanding a change to the political dynamic of Planet Bob. And NPO et al are the focus of this change. What you name the collectiive that group of alliances is irrellevant.

[Tygaland]

You have the ability to steal thoughts. You are mostly right, Tyga what are you doing?

I have answered I think all of the questions in original post:

and in the post that followed and the post that followed that:

I think your wink might be indicating to one particular question, is that the case? If so kindly, clarify. I shall attempt to answer.

You haven't answered any of the questions.

The questions being:

Do you honestly believe NPO deserves white peace?

Do you believe it is in the best interests of Karma to give the NPO white peace?

Do you think that the NPO, having been given white peace and an early out of this war, would then use that as a launching pad for an assault on the splintered Karma alliances or use that chance to reform themselves and become a less aggressive alliance in the Cyberverse?

And by answer them, I mean answer them directly and from your personal perspective.

Also, in one post you seem to agree with me then in another thread not so much. So, to be honest, I'm struggling to see where it is you stand on the matter. I still think you are trying to spin to be honest.

[foxodi]

I think someone in another thread said it best.

NPO put harsh terms on relatively innocent alliances.

If Karma puts harsh terms on NPO (who isn't innocent due to the above line and multiple other reasons) then it wouldn't make Karma as bad as the NPO.

Just like a Government that executes murderers aren't as bad as murderers - as its justifiable punishment.

Of course this is just talking about NPO and some of its closest allies; most of the others that are part of this just because of treaty obligation have already been given white peace. So yeah, I really can't see anything that Karma has done wrong so far (besides the poor show in initial peace talks with NPO, which again can be connected back to what I just said; its justifiable punishment)

[Generalissimo]

The problem is the people with no authority to act spent the time painting the picture. They were in disagreement with their leadership probably then and so they are now, my only issue is that when such vast claims of morality were being made, so great even the Angels would shy away, that some more rational people did not step forward to indicate and say 'Listen, we're going to be much better than NPO, but we are not angels and please don't perceive us as such", those attempts are only being made now and that makes it look like 'Oh, so now when time came to act on your claims, you say this?".

Karma lacks real long-term or post-war objectives because they only bond they share is that of war; karma is an incredibly loose coalition, not a treaty organization.

Karma doesn’t share a common morality because they’re a collection of a hundred alliances. Every alliance in Karma has their own reasons for fighting the Order’s hegemony, some more justified than others.

Edited May 3, 2009 by Generalissimo

[Paradigm]

You can go on about white peace which was never, ever mentioned with regards to the NPO by Karma and is merely the construct of vivid imaginations on the Hegemony side, but without honestly answering those questions you cannot begin to fully comprehend the situation we are all in now.

And Tyga wins again - that is the question on the table if people really want to talk about these subjects. But you dont, people are just getting the daily talking points on making the same thread over and over again.

[Master-Debater]

Once again we see a post about how Karma is as bad as NPO, and once again there is no evidence to back it up.

If your going to try to claim that the terms that Karma has given alliances so far is as bad as the ones NPO and company have given out over the last three years you really need to take a step back and realize what you said. Nothing Karma has done has even come close to what NPO and co have done, and it likely never will.

In Karma there is no will to force disband alliances, to give harsh terms and keep them there for years, to make alliances stay at war for years, no talk about doing practically anything that NPO and Co have done over the past few years.

Will NPO get harsh terms? Only time will tell. Will they get a white peace? Extremely unlikely. What they have done over the past years has hurt far more people and hurt this game in general far more than people realize. Now they will have to atone for their actions and only time will tell what they get in the end.

The whole argument that Karma is a small minority is pretty absurd as well. If Karma was so small then why are all the alliances fighting us getting whooped? You obviously don’t realize that a majority of this game right now wants to see the destruction of the hegemony that has created the playing atmosphere that we have. The constant attacking then debilitating surrender terms that NPO and co have created has created enough of a hatred from all sides of this game that a coalition big enough to take them down was formed.

You can say it’s a “vocal minority” all you want but actions speak louder than words. And the actions of the world are speaking volumes as to what they see is wrong with this game.

[Delta1212]

Karma is worse than NPO.

For the Hegemony alliances. Those in the Hegemony weren't on the receiving end of their own actions. They are now on the receiving end of Karma's. While Karma's actions are incredibly less harsh than anything the Hegemony did, they are significantly harsher than benefiting from events the way the the Hegemony is used to.

Come back to me when you've had people threaten to disband your alliance and destroy your allies multiple times over the course of several years, had to pay out reparations that push your alliance to the brink of collapse, have friends driven out of the game on a regular basis and have people laugh at you while doing all of the above. Once you've experienced that personally, then come back and tell us we're just as bad.

[enderland]

I don't see a problem giving NPO white peace...

after all their nations are below 5k infra.

[Cobalt]

Personally, I love it that the hegemony line has become "You're just as bad as we are!" - talk about an admission of guilt.

[Authur]

Do you honestly believe NPO deserves white peace?

Very few alliances "deserve" white peace based on past actions. By giving the NPO white peace though it would send a strong message. It would speak volumes to the type of change you guys have been championing.

Do you believe it is in the best interests of Karma to give the NPO white peace?

No.

Do you think that the NPO, having been given white peace and an early out of this war, would then use that as a launching pad for an assault on the splintered Karma alliances or use that chance to reform themselves and become a less aggressive alliance in the Cyberverse?

Ah the heart of the matter. The NPO and their allies got a bad reputation in part becuase they were proactive in keeping their allaince safe from potential threats by using harsh terms to cripple the opposition for extended periods. If Karma does the same, gives the NPO harsh terms to ensure they can not be a threat for the foreseeable future then they are doing the very same thing they criticize the NPO for.

Besides what is wrong with a challenge? So what if the NPO springs back up and comes after it's spot?

Because, these are questions Karma has to answer when they do go to the table with peace terms for the NPO.

You can go on about white peace which was never, ever mentioned with regards to the NPO by Karma and is merely the construct of vivid imaginations on the Hegemony side, but without honestly answering those questions you cannot begin to fully comprehend the situation we are all in now.

The terms are going to send a message to the world. Was this war really about change or was revenge a big part of it?

Edited May 3, 2009 by Authur

[Authur]

Personally, I love it that the hegemony line has become "You're just as bad as we are!" - talk about an admission of guilt.

The problem is perspective. The people in the alliances everyone enjoys attacking here view you guys in a very different light then you see yourselves. The constant attacks, not just on the leadership who run these alliances, but on any member who bears their AA is at times disturbing. It gets justified with, "you guys did it first", but that does not make it right and labors under the misconception that every members participated in such behavior before the public change. The truth is there is a lot of hate and desire for revenge sprinkled in among the talk of change and morality. It's only natural for those on the other side to be unconvinced when you try to say your better.

The best thing we could all do is to stop talking about who is better then who and just stick to doing what we feel is right and just.

Edited May 3, 2009 by Authur

[Lord Rune]

It gets justified with, "you guys did it first", but that does not make it right and labors under the misconception that every members participated in such behavior before the public change.

But then does that not go back to alliance members being held responsible for the actions of their leaders? If they didn't approve of their leaders' actions, they should have left that alliance.

[Bob Janova]

Are you really complaining about people being treated differently based on being part of a Hegemony alliance on these forums? I mean, really? Just so I'm sure before I begin a rant about how daft that is ...

[bzelger]

Very few alliances "deserve" white peace based on past actions. By giving the NPO white peace though it would send a strong message. It would speak volumes to the type of change you guys have been championing.

The fear is that it results in no change, as the NPO would rebound, knock out the opposition, and go back to all the objectionable practices they champion.

Besides what is wrong with a challenge? So what if the NPO springs back up and comes after it's spot?

If we lose the rematch there wouldn't be a third bout.