The Gap between Perception and reallity.

[Ragashingo]

I will let IRON members speak for IRON. I am no longer a part of that allaince and don't wish to misrepresent them. I personally left IRON to fight in defense of the NPO (before I knew IRON was going to enter) becuase it's what I felt was right at the time considering the treaty they and IRON shared at the start of the war.

I am not saying that others "won't fight" just that many people and alliances in this world have at one time willingly gone along with the act's the NPO is now condemned for committing. Some very recently. While many are paying for their actions, others (myself included) have gotten off lightly or have received no punishment at all. Should everyone be rounded up? No, however this fact should not be forgotten. IRON for example is paying for their "crimes" as some of you see it. They are serving their time. To condemn them while praising others who even a month or so ago walked the same path is unfair.

Is it? Maybe one could say those that left the path did so to pay off their debts? But yeah, war isn't always fair.

Sorry.

[Authur]

Is it? Maybe one could say those that left the path did so to pay off their debts? But yeah, war isn't always fair.

Sorry.

No, war isn't fair. I don't expect it to be. I just hate seeing certain allaince condemned for "going along with it" while many other alliance's who did the very same, recently at that, are praised/forgiven.

Edited May 6, 2009 by Authur

[Sileath]

No, war isn't fair. I don't expect it to be. I just hate seeing certain allaince condemned for "going along with it" while many other alliance's who did the very same, recently at that, are praised/forgiven.

I support NSO's stance (surprised?) that we went to war to help our friends, and after peace was acquired, did not seek to punish those who we went to war against, because their motives were the same.

Anyone who wants to impose harsh terms and/or demonize the opposition aside from the obligatory propaganda [ooc]needs to study the Treaty of Versailles and its effects[/ooc]

[Orkules]

I support NSO's stance (surprised?) that we went to war to help our friends, and after peace was acquired, did not seek to punish those who we went to war against, because their motives were the same.

Anyone who wants to impose harsh terms and/or demonize the opposition aside from the obligatory propaganda [ooc]needs to study the Treaty of Versailles and its effects[/ooc]

Personally I am torn over NPO and co in this area. Specifically Pacifica, IRON, TPF, and Valhalla. The things they've done to me and others...I almost cannot bear to let it go unpunished. I also know what they'll do if we just let them go and then fracture and I don't want to watch it happen again.

However, I also cannot condone terms too heavy. I will not bring down this monster just to become a new one. Nor will I be party to those who do (I've already stated what I will do if I view NPO's terms as unjust after the war here numerous times). The issue will be finding the balance. I do not envy those who will do so for I am not sure if I could. But I will offer advice if I have the chance and will judge them when they are released and act based on what I see.

[Authur]

I support NSO's stance (surprised?) that we went to war to help our friends, and after peace was acquired, did not seek to punish those who we went to war against, because their motives were the same.

Anyone who wants to impose harsh terms and/or demonize the opposition aside from the obligatory propaganda [ooc]needs to study the Treaty of Versailles and its effects[/ooc]

I am not talking about allaince who went to war receiving favorable peace terms. I'm all for terms that allow alliances to rebuild and re-enter the race toward the top. I'm speaking about alliance's who were allied to the NPO, participated in the beat downs, and with in the last month or so switched sides. I don't doubt the sincerity of their change of heart but the fact remains that they participated in it and have not faced the consequences like their former allies are right now.

[Orkules]

I am not talking about allaince who went to war receiving favorable peace terms. I'm all for terms that allow alliances to rebuild and re-enter the race toward the top. I'm speaking about alliance's who were allied to the NPO, participated in the beat downs, and with in the last month or so switched sides. I don't doubt the sincerity of their change of heart but the fact remains that they participated in it and have not faced the consequences like their former allies are right now.

We shall see their change of heart soon enough I suppose. I must agree, I doubt the virtue of many of my allies in the cause for which I strive. I, in fact, doubt that many of them are fighting for the same reason that I am (aside from the obvious treaty obligations). Though commonly a cynic, I do have my idyllic moments and this war is one of them. I strive to bring about an ideal world of competition and light terms while at the same time knowing that world is likely doomed in part or possibly entirely in the long run.

I just hope the world we create can be one in which the game is enjoyable for most or all for a time, even if not forever. If we can avoid something like what has occurred since Pacifica and her allies came to dominance for as little as 6 months I will consider this fight a success. If not...I will know sorrow in our failure despite the pains we suffered to bring about the change some of us sought so desperately.

[Max Rockatansky]

When you guys are constantly spewing the same party line(in some cases) verbatim, how do you expect us to separate the truth from the sheer !@#$%^&* of it all? The fact is, you can't. Nor should any of us be expected to. When you were on top you guys talked about "No mercy" and all that jazz. Well you're not on top anymore. Some people are going to have it easier in this war than others. On both sides of the fence. I mean, let's be fair here. You guys had no problem endorsing so much worse, to complain now is laughable at best and an insult to any literate human being on these forums.

It's real funny though. I've never really heard to many people in Karma talk to each other about moral rights and wrongs. I'd imagine since I speak to them more than you, let's pretend I know something you don't. What I have heard though, are questions of ethics. What is ethically acceptable to the inhabitants of this planet as a whole? I've said it once, I'll say it a thousand times. Morality is obsolete. You ask just about anybody they'll tell you that they are good and moral people, but what makes a person good and moral are hardly ever the same thing. The concept itself is even open to interpretation depending on who you ask. No sir, not for me. I prefer acceptable ethical standards that are much easier to agree on.

You'll never hear me refer to anyone on your side as Immoral or any variant of the term. There are however some very unethical things your buddies have been up to that cannot be excused. Without ethics, a man is without logic or reason. That being said, our prophets here in The Wastes psang:

"With dreams to be a king, first one should be a man

I call about and charge them all with a life that is a lie

And in their final hour they shall confess before they die"

In one way or another Hegemony made us. All of us. We are the result of your failures. The cumulative evidence of past misdeeds, disrespects, and antagonisms. So, you can say whatever you like. It doesn't matter. This is what you've created, and you have nobody to blame but yourselves. So sit back, relax, and enjoy it, you guys definitely earned it.

[HeinousOne]

I will let IRON members speak for IRON. I am no longer a part of that allaince and don't wish to misrepresent them. I personally left IRON to fight in defense of the NPO (before I knew IRON was going to enter) becuase it's what I felt was right at the time considering the treaty they and IRON shared at the start of the war.

I am not saying that others "won't fight" just that many people and alliances in this world have at one time willingly gone along with the act's the NPO is now condemned for committing. Some very recently. While many are paying for their actions, others (myself included) have gotten off lightly or have received no punishment at all. Should everyone be rounded up? No, however this fact should not be forgotten. IRON for example is paying for their "crimes" as some of you see it. They are serving their time. To condemn them while praising others who even a month or so ago walked the same path is unfair.

You know, at some point you guys were supposed to step forward and say enough is enough right? That is what your opponents would probably say. What you are saying is that those that stepped forward and actually said enough should be punished for what they did before saying enough is enough? It's not as if there was a deadline or a prophecied date of Armageddon that would later be termed the Karma wars.

[potato]

When you guys are constantly spewing the same party line(in some cases) verbatim, how do you expect us to separate the truth from the sheer !@#$%^&* of it all? The fact is, you can't. Nor should any of us be expected to. When you were on top you guys talked about "No mercy" and all that jazz. Well you're not on top anymore. Some people are going to have it easier in this war than others. On both sides of the fence. I mean, let's be fair here. You guys had no problem endorsing so much worse, to complain now is laughable at best and an insult to any literate human being on these forums.

All 3 of them?

[Tygaland]

All 3 of them?

Another one signed up? I must have missed it with all this war business going on!

[Authur]

You know, at some point you guys were supposed to step forward and say enough is enough right? That is what your opponents would probably say. What you are saying is that those that stepped forward and actually said enough should be punished for what they did before saying enough is enough? It's not as if there was a deadline or a prophecied date of Armageddon that would later be termed the Karma wars.

I am NOT saying that those who were fed up before this war should face punishment. What I am saying is that those who stayed are paying for their "crimes" and when this war is over I would like to see people treat them as well as those who walked away right before then end. They didn't "see the light" until it was too late but they are "serving their time" so when it's over I'd like to see the community acknowledge it.

[Alterego]

After all the complaining about "no CB" against Hyperion I find it pathetic that Karma now say treaties or CBs aren't necessary. The silence of senior members of Karma in the recent DF DoW who were vocally opposed to these kinds of actions when done by NPO is a disgrace. You are frauds and nothing more. If you wonder why we think there is a gap between what you say and what you do, its because there is a great big chasm.

[Orkules]

After all the complaining about "no CB" against Hyperion I find it pathetic that Karma now say treaties or CBs aren't necessary. The silence of senior members of Karma in the recent DF DoW who were vocally opposed to these kinds of actions when done by NPO is a disgrace. You are frauds and nothing more. If you wonder why we think there is a gap between what you say and what you do, its because there is a great big chasm.

Haven't read the DoW, stopped reading them a while after about the 50th or so. I'll bet if they $%&@ed up though we're getting on them in private if not in public.

[Bob Janova]

Hey look it's Alterego complaining again.

You are failing to see (I suspect intentionally) the big picture, which is that the Hegemony started a big war in order to remove a portion of the MDP web, they misjudged and Karma is fighting a successful defence. You can whinge all you like about individual fronts but really it's all a waste of breath – each front is not a stand-alone war which can be analysed for motive, CB and so on.

Dark Fist and NEW were already fighting on opposite sides of the global war and I'm sure that if the tables were turned then the Hegemony would be redeploying alliances to where they can be most effective, with or without paper. Their action is in no sense comparable to GGA and Valhalla starting a war without a CB. Complaining about DF's action is on the same level as whinging about nation-to-nation DoWs and how New Syzygia doesn't have a CB against Bubbler Nation.