The Gap between Perception and reallity.

[Doitzel]

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What is your suggestion then? Hegemony is repeatedly beat down every couple months? From your post, one may think that it is what you imply. Not giving NPO white peace is one thing and in your context, well not your context, but in context of some of your allies, makes some rational sense, but beat downs every now and then...that seems to be the new theme that is coming out lately. I hope I am wrong and it is not what you or Doitzel or some of your pals maybe implying.

I apologize for any misinterpretations of your several posts that suggest such a disturbing theme.

My posts simply express my fear that history will repeat itself and the NPO will march its way straight back to the top and straight over the knecks of everyone they feel like holding responsible. In light of their history I am simply urging people not to become complacent and over-confident with this victory. NPO holds grudges for a long, long time.

[Electric Mango]

White peace

Practice what you preach

[shahenshah]

My posts simply express my fear that history will repeat itself and the NPO will march its way straight back to the top and straight over the knecks of everyone they feel like holding responsible. In light of their history I am simply urging people not to become complacent and over-confident with this victory. NPO holds grudges for a long, long time.

Ah ok, Thank you for the clarification, even subtle changes of words may imply something completely different.

*Bob, i'll reply to you in a bit, in middle of something.

Edited May 4, 2009 by shahenshah

[Authur]

I started this thread not as anti or pro Propaganda as some people have accused me of, they just entered the thread, missed the point, blindly accused of this and that and thats it. I am saddened that the discussion took another turn and went back to the same NPO vs Rest of the world. It is a foregone conclusion IMO that NPO will be getting the terms. How can this be propaganda if I ask people on Hegemony side to judge Karma based on what its leaders are saying and not what every Tom, Dick, Harry and their Grand mothers post, which in many cases even contradicts the stance of their own leaders. Infact if anything, this is something that Karma should have attempted to clarify on its own behalf instead of wondering why the hell is everyone talking about white peace or this or that all of a sudden.

What can I say, the thread has completely gone off-topic. I ask people to not have their visions blurred of each other purely based on blind hatred. Some people it seems simply cant accept objective opinion coming from other side, it may not be completely objective due to perhaps inherent biases but my attempt was to truly find out and judge Karma objectively. They are some how convinced there is hidden agenda, or that I somehow represent a secret Hegemony PR organisation regardless of anything else. It just re-enforces my point that people are judging each other on whatever they can find on *OWF*.

Thread has gone completely off the track, I give this effort up, what can I say, so continue whatever you guys were doing.

I apologize for the thread derailment. There were a lot of things I have wanted to say about the events transpiring and they all kind of poured out in this thread.

I am not sure if you are including me in your comments but assuming you are I just want to clarify that I have no hatred for either side. Having been on both sides of the fence for the better part of a year each I have come to realize that there are great passionate individuals in this world who simply view things differently. It's fine to disagree, to debate, but the hate really needs to dissipate. We need to give up labeling either side as the "bad guys" and labeling ours as the "good" becuase that's not going to get us any where. There are unsavory characters on both sides who cause trouble but we shouldn't allow them to color our view of the "other side", which sadly occurs frequently.

That said, out of respect to the OP I'm out.

[shahenshah]

Authur, I would request that you stay, you add sanity and calm to the mindless hatred.

[Coursca]

So what you just said could be summed up with: Sic Semper Tyranis.

(OOC: Thus Always to Tyrants. Motto of the Commonwealth of Virginia, my home for the last 16 years. Not sure its quite what I was getting at, though.)

Their behaviour post-war will be what it was last time this happened. They will make slight shifts in policy to adapt to the times and appease their vanquishers and then quickly set about resolving what they see to be the issues that ruined their grip on power last time. I'm guessing they'll start with a bunch of treaties to alliances they feel like they can trust, they'll probably go on a "More Lovable NPO" PR campaign, and they'll shake many hands while hiding a knife behind their back in the other. There is no doubt that they can be friendly but they do even this only when it has a purpose: when they're preparing for the fallout of a war (as electron sponge accurately pointed out) or when they're recovering political capital after losing one. Once it's clear who's #1 in both hard and soft power again, which will as always be their ultimate goal, we can expect them to revert to "we're better than you" mode and start stepping on small alliances like ants.

This makes good sense to me insofar as its happened before. I believe there is a certain validity to historical analogies. Whether it happens, though, remains to be seen.

The defence against this is to be proactive in ensuring it won't happen. Those of us who've been around the block a bit know how not to fall into this trap, but the more youthful national and alliance leaders are likely to be hoodwinked easily by Dilber's silver tongue. They will be very careful not to make missteps because they know what they can cost. The only answer is constant, unwavering vigilance and the occasional reminder that despite our differences, a New Pacific Order that threatens one of us threatens us all.

Lessons learned from the days of Chris Kaos. Hopefully, though, this vigilance will not only be maintained, but also be unnecessary. By "unnecessary", I mean that the NPO will have undergone a significant enough behavior and leadership change that this hegemony-seeking behavior will be ceased in the long term.

Optimistic, yes, but that has always been my biggest personal flaw.

[Coursca]

NPO never set out for basic security. When we first started the alliance we wanted nothing more than to fight a gigantic war. So we went to war with NAAC over some trash talk.

NPO has been a griefer alliance since day 1.

Certainly, though, you would agree that in starting a new alliance, NPO had considerations of how it would successfully fight (and potentially) win such a gigantic war. The ability to wage war is necessarily a security-seeking behavior, even if such abilities are meant to be used offensively as opposed to defensively.

Obviously NPO wasn't playing to lose (even if they do lose from time to time).

[shahenshah]

Nobody plays for loosing, anyone claiming not playing for winning is a fool. This goes against the very basic and core rational thought - Survival and Reproduction or in Alliance's case - Survival and Growth.

[sammykhalifa]

Nobody plays for loosing, anyone claiming not playing for winning is a fool. This goes against the very basic and core rational thought - Survival and Reproduction or in Alliance's case - Survival and Growth.

Not everyone holds the same definition of "winning" either (at least in an open-ended world/game like this).

[kulomascovia]

I agree that the leaders of "karma" should take responsibility for their members actions but we don't fully know who those members are nor do we know the powers of the supposed leadership. Can they dictate the peace terms themselves? Can alliances in Karma set their own peace terms with the NPO (if they are fighting the NPO)? Currently, we don't know any of this. It would be hard to say what is a misconception since we don't know the powers of Karma and its official position. If Karma is to be an actual organization or a bloc with a leadership, it should have a charter. Currently, some alliances(leadership included) want harsh actions for the NPO, some don't. Some individuals proclaim harsh terms for NPO without the approval of their leaders. Karma can't reach an agreement without creating a charter with a proper leadership.

However, I think those alliances in actual combat with the NPO should be able to take responsibility for their members. Ultimately, they are the ones who are going to decide the terms for the NPO.

[Sylar]

Well from the way i look at it, this is the same exact situation as WWI, and after that they made Germany pay horrific reparations and that inspired Germany to destroy those who did that to them, so the best case is to probably give them white peace so they don't hold a grudge but still know to watch there moves, and isn't karma's saying what comes around goes around so wouldn't that just go bite you in the $@! lol, so white peace is the way to go from my perspective at least.

[Bob Janova]

the best case is to probably give them white peace so they don't hold a grudge

Yes, because that worked so well with the NPO before.

[Vhalen]

Yes, because that worked so well with the NPO before.

Oh, I thought he meant the rest of CN was WWI Germany.

[Ragashingo]

White peace

Practice what you preach

Hahahahaha!

Sorry, your ignorance made me giddy.

[HeinousOne]

White peace

Practice what you preach

I am one that speaks of lenient terms and yet I am also one to say it is not YOUR place to make such statements. Your alliance has stood for harsh terms through previous conflicts. Such a statement from you is quite hypocritical to actually call out your enemies to treat you differently then you have treated others.

A Karmic reaction to the actions of the Hegemony could actually be a very harsh reaction or a moralistic one. No matter which is chosen, you have no place to make such judging statements. The more of these I see the more likely I am to think harsher terms might be fair.

[Coursca]

I am one that speaks of lenient terms and yet I am also one to say it is not YOUR place to make such statements. Your alliance has stood for harsh terms through previous conflicts. Such a statement from you is quite hypocritical to actually call out your enemies to treat you differently then you have treated others.

A Karmic reaction to the actions of the Hegemony could actually be a very harsh reaction or a moralistic one. No matter which is chosen, you have no place to make such judging statements. The more of these I see the more likely I am to think harsher terms might be fair.

Actually, IRON has a pretty good track record of presenting very lenient terms to alliances or waiving them altogether. In fact, I seem to recall the waiving of terms for several alliances on IRON's part after the last war. I also seem to remember being personally involved in doing that.

Before you cite GATO or GPA, I cannot attest as to whether or not IRON had anything to do with those terms since I was not government at the time.

Also, I somehow doubt you, personally, will be the deciding factor of whatever terms these alliances get.

[HeinousOne]

Actually, IRON has a pretty good track record of presenting very lenient terms to alliances or waiving them altogether. In fact, I seem to recall the waiving of terms for several alliances on IRON's part after the last war. I also seem to remember being personally involved in doing that.

Before you cite GATO or GPA, I cannot attest as to whether or not IRON had anything to do with those terms since I was not government at the time.

Also, I somehow doubt you, personally, will be the deciding factor of whatever terms these alliances get.

Is that last line of yours an attempt to support the statement by your Former brother in Iron that you think members of the Hegemony have the right to call out Karma on what terms they give? Oh please do say yes.

I do believe it is just your attempt to still come off as high and mighty though as I never stated I was a deciding factor. Kind of hard to come off as high and mighty though as a runner.

[Cataduanes]

Before you cite GATO or GPA, I cannot attest as to whether or not IRON had anything to do with those terms since I was not government at the time.

Surely IRON had some imput into the terms? or was NPO calling all the shots??

Edited May 5, 2009 by Cataduanes

[shahenshah]

Is that last line of yours an attempt to support the statement by your Former brother in Iron that you think members of the Hegemony have the right to call out Karma on what terms they give? Oh please do say yes.

I do believe it is just your attempt to still come off as high and mighty though as I never stated I was a deciding factor. Kind of hard to come off as high and mighty though as a runner.

We brothers can make opinion independent of each other, after all 700+, we are alot of people. We fortunately or unfortunately don't have a party line to showcase one-solid-core opinion like some people may assume of IRON. Hell, someone tell me what's the party line? Last I checked the most popular line within IRON was "Pixels are temporary, Causalities are forever". I hope that reflects the mindset of majority.

Our actions speak louder to people who sit in positions that matter, you are right, you are not a deciding factor and you can take comfort in knowing that neither I am or the people you are arguing.

[HeinousOne]

We brothers can make opinion independent of each other, after all 700+, we are alot of people. We fortunately or unfortunately don't have a party line to showcase one-solid-core opinion like some people may assume of IRON. Hell, someone tell me what's the party line? Last I checked the most popular line within IRON was "Pixels are temporary, Causalities are forever". I hope that reflects the mindset of majority.

Our actions speak louder to people who sit in positions that matter, you are right, you are not a deciding factor and you can take comfort in knowing that neither I am or the people you are arguing.

The difference is I have the right to voice my thoughts AS A KARMA MEMBER on what terms karma hands out. I can call out others on being just like the hegemony goons or I can say that harsh terms are just. Cries from your alliance's members such as the first one I quoted do not come off as just but as rather weak attempts to influence the enemy.

You are right that actions speak louder then words. Your biggest action that stands out is that you sat as the second largest alliance in the world right next to the largest as they committed atrocities. That is tacit approval and you can try to run away from that truth forever but it will forever loom over your heads. You cannot come off as just in this. Your heavy hand gave much power to the pacifican jackboot.

[shahenshah]

The difference is I have the right to voice my thoughts AS A KARMA MEMBER on what terms karma hands out. I can call out others on being just like the hegemony goons or I can say that harsh terms are just. Cries from your alliance's members such as the first one I quoted do not come off as just but as rather weak attempts to influence the enemy.

You are right that actions speak louder then words. Your biggest action that stands out is that you sat as the second largest alliance in the world right next to the largest as they committed atrocities. That is tacit approval and you can try to run away from that truth forever but it will forever loom over your heads. You cannot come off as just in this. Your heavy hand gave much power to the pacifican jackboot.

And we took the 2nd most damage for that tacit approval and we honored our treaties. There are many who fight in your side as "KARMA MEMBERS" who gave as much tacit approval as us, didnt get a scratch, chose to run out of treaties when odds were tough or simply ignore them. Please, this line has been used several times. We have paid the price for the tacit approval or perhaps not approval, but silence and also honored the treaties of our blocs. We have nothing to prove to anyone. Last time under our direct capacity, we waived off the reparations, after that it has been mostly Bloc politics. And we enter this fight on Bloc treaties.

Regarding the rights, yes absolutely do, no questions, just as he has right to post what he wants within the rules of the forums.

You 'can call out on others just like hegemony 'goons'', are you admitting you are a goon too?. Also, we aren't goons, we are Coward Coalition, stop respecting us.

[boscher]

Well from the way i look at it, this is the same exact situation as WWI, and after that they made Germany pay horrific reparations and that inspired Germany to destroy those who did that to them, so the best case is to probably give them white peace so they don't hold a grudge but still know to watch there moves, and isn't karma's saying what comes around goes around so wouldn't that just go bite you in the $@! lol, so white peace is the way to go from my perspective at least.

Karma would be Germany by your analogy. They will come for us whatever we do, white peace or harsh terms.

[Authur]

And we took the 2nd most damage for that tacit approval and we honored our treaties. There are many who fight in your side as "KARMA MEMBERS" who gave as much tacit approval as us, didnt get a scratch, chose to run out of treaties when odds were tough or simply ignore them. Please, this line has been used several times. We have paid the price for the tacit approval or perhaps not approval, but silence and also honored the treaties of our blocs. We have nothing to prove to anyone. Last time under our direct capacity, we waived off the reparations, after that it has been mostly Bloc politics. And we enter this fight on Bloc treaties.

^^^

There are alliances on the Karma side that has stood side by side with the NPO as they committed the acts your all against now. Some of them didn't have a change of heart until after it was clear a war was coming yet they have been given a free pass while others have been unfairly called "cowards". Any allaince and anyone who has stood by the NPO's side as they did these things bears some of the blame. It's unfair to point a finger at someone without admitting your own guilt. Just keep that in mind when vilifying people.

[HeinousOne]

^^^

There are alliances on the Karma side that has stood side by side with the NPO as they committed the acts your all against now. Some of them didn't have a change of heart until after it was clear a war was coming yet they have been given a free pass while others have been unfairly called "cowards". Any allaince and anyone who has stood by the NPO's side as they did these things bears some of the blame. It's unfair to point a finger at someone without admitting your own guilt. Just keep that in mind when vilifying people.

According to that little announcement that IRON was part of, IRON is not backing NPO in this war but instead they are backing Q. That would be the legal definition of what you are doing as you dropped your individual treaty with NPO too. You are fighting in defense of Q not NPO, right? Or was all that merely propaganda which is now conveniently tossed aside as you wish to gain some leverage in this discussion by saying you are fighting for NPO while others wont?

[Authur]

According to that little announcement that IRON was part of, IRON is not backing NPO in this war but instead they are backing Q. That would be the legal definition of what you are doing as you dropped your individual treaty with NPO too. You are fighting in defense of Q not NPO, right? Or was all that merely propaganda which is now conveniently tossed aside as you wish to gain some leverage in this discussion by saying you are fighting for NPO while others wont?

I will let IRON members speak for IRON. I am no longer a part of that allaince and don't wish to misrepresent them. I personally left IRON to fight in defense of the NPO (before I knew IRON was going to enter) becuase it's what I felt was right at the time considering the treaty they and IRON shared at the start of the war.

I am not saying that others "won't fight" just that many people and alliances in this world have at one time willingly gone along with the act's the NPO is now condemned for committing. Some very recently. While many are paying for their actions, others (myself included) have gotten off lightly or have received no punishment at all. Should everyone be rounded up? No, however this fact should not be forgotten. IRON for example is paying for their "crimes" as some of you see it. They are serving their time. To condemn them while praising others who even a month or so ago walked the same path is unfair.

Edited May 6, 2009 by Authur