Observations.

[cookavich]

They can't be ridiculous if we haven't addressed them. This is a different war.

So, we should just forget all the injustices you've perpetrated over the years? K.

[kevin32891]

So, we should just forget all the injustices you've perpetrated over the years? K.

I wasn't saying that. I was stating this a different war. What you're saying is that this is

the same war we're fight since GPW.

[kevin32891]

The OP can actually state otherwise.

Many Karma nations have been offered terms actually.

Well, looks like you should all get on the same page.

Well I wasn't informed or ordered to give that said terms. Until I see a thread stating "Official" terms

of surrender from our side, their are none.

[Bob Janova]

My favorite thing is the "You're just as bad as us!" routine

Yeah, apart from the desperation it reveals, it is refreshing to hear from so many Hegemony members that they were bad, after two years of denying it. I think so many people claim it though because they really can't imagine a world where there isn't a controlling power dictating to a group of other alliances. GW3 was exactly the same, the Initiative claimed that should Aegis win, things would be no different except for the identity of the controller. It was ridiculous then and it is so now; both Aegis and Karma are disparate groups brought together by a common enemy, not a new power cluster attempting to take the top spot from Continuum/One Vision for its own.

[kevin32891]

Yeah, apart from the desperation it reveals, it is refreshing to hear from so many Hegemony members that they were bad, after two years of denying it. I think so many people claim it though because they really can't imagine a world where there isn't a controlling power dictating to a group of other alliances. GW3 was exactly the same, the Initiative claimed that should Aegis win, things would be no different except for the identity of the controller. It was ridiculous then and it is so now; both Aegis and Karma are disparate groups brought together by a common enemy, not a new power cluster attempting to take the top spot from Continuum/One Vision for its own.

Hell I knew we we're never great. I was in GOONS and stayed until the GOONland resistance movement before going into the NPO. The fact that you're saying I'm bad or Moo is bad or NPO is bad or the entire Hegemony is bad.

At the end of the day nukes will fly across the sky and babies will be eaten.

[Dochartaigh]

I find it more ironic that people who have supported and thrived in the hegemony for years have recently changed sides and are now acting all high and mighty and self righteous about teh ebil NPO (and I'm not talking about you or VE, for the record )

i was a Polar for over 2 years. i decried much that happened then and did not decry other issues. I spoke out when IAA disbanded but not when \m/ or Genmay or GOONS did. Frankly, i am still glad those three alliances are gone. Intellectually it does not mean that i know that it was wrong that they disbanded under the circumstances that they did, but they all chose to do it much as IAA did. As FAN has proven, there is no real way to force an alliance to disband. simply none. you can only keep them in perpetual war.

simply put, i supported some moves by NPO or others on the Hegemony side but i spoke out against other moves as well.

No one can honestly say they are perfect in CN. there really is not a single alliance other than maybe a few small neutral alliances (Grey Council, TDO, WTF) that basically has no interaction with the rest of CN that can state this. If you have interaction on a political scale with CN, then you are not perfect.

in my opinion, NPO was by far amongst the worse violators of much that is seen as wrong in CN. This includes simply supporting and allowing allies to do as they please. (TPF war on NoV......)

The side of Karma has realized this and many alliances in Karma have vocally opposed much of these "evil" actions for the past few months to a year, some longer. so to state that just because some alliances have supported some actions in the past means nothing if they have seen the error of their ways and are working to put an end to those actions.

[Gruthenia]

The Pepsi/Coke comparisons are funny. The fact that the best the Hegemony can say about themselves is that they're jerks, but, uh, so is the other guy (I swear) is pretty much why they're here. There's nothing positive the Hegemony can point to to make themselves look good. It's all about dragging the other people into the mud with them. The Karma alliances sling plenty of mud, but it actually sticks because many of the worst offenses of the ancien regime are mostly exclusive to them - most if not all of Karma's big name alliances are innocent of having lengthy perma-ZI lists, enforcing surrender terms that include viceroys, decommissioning wonders, that sort of thing.

The Hegemony's propaganda though is as derogatory towards themselves as the other side. It's just sad. Even the dogma ate your karma sigs being sported in this topic are playing into popularly held stereotypes (namely Pacificans being mindless drones and internet tough guys).

[cookavich]

I wasn't saying that. I was stating this a different war. What you're saying is that this is

the same war we're fight since GPW.

Okay, so because the Hegemony might give out similar terms as Karma during this war, Karma is just as bad as the Hegemony? I'm having a hard time following your logic :-/ Edited April 28, 2009 by cookavich

[Reptyler]

Okay, so because the Hegemony might give out similar terms as Karma during this war, Karma is just as bad as the Hegemony? I'm having a hard time following your logic :-/

Logic? In my Cybernations?

[kevin32891]

Okay, so because the Hegemony might give out similar terms as Karma during this war, Karma is just as bad as the Hegemony? I'm having a hard time following your logic :-/

I'm sorry I'll try again since.

You're side is equal to ours.

Not better or worst. Understand know?

[Draztikus]

He's not on any side.

[AlmightyGrub]

You talk a lot for someone who's not been in an alliance currently flying under Karma, for someone who has a history of not knowing what he's talking about and for someone who is spectacularly wrong.

Karma was put together in well under a month, when we began to be concerned that One Vision would lash out against the peaceful change in the political scene. The fact that so many diverse alliances came together in order to prevent that attack from succeeding is testament to how many people don't like you. And once you are gone, the glue that binds Karma together to defeat you will also be gone. There will not be a new hegemon at the end of this.

Bob, that is a complete lie, a complete and total lie . Karma has been well under way for months, planning is referred to by your side in what I thought were relatively smug posts and I think to deny it is folly. It does not sit well with me that this planning, (yes yes we all have the logs of the meetings way back when), was going on while people were still holding hands and promising to be best buddies forever.

Only Gramlins had the guts at the time this really all started to back themselves, hold to their principles and do the right thing when faced with the reality of the situation ie leave tC. Karma started back then, the meetings were conducted and most of the people I see on Karma's side were present and accounted for at that time. There has been little surprise to me as to who rolled where (except for that rascally NpO who I still don't know what they are up to, so stop asking me in 999 queries a day) so I find it hard to swallow that ''under a month'' is true... maybe under a month to name it was what you meant?

Whether this was planned for a month or a year is irrelevant, everyone knew once Polaris was smacked down that the eyes of the world would turn onto the next likely candidate and it is no shock that the NPO had upset enough people to qualify.

Bob, I like you guys, I really do but be straight with the great unwashed, this was a well planned offensive just waiting for the opportunity with the appropriate degree of moral outrage to get started. It was only a matter of time before the trip wire was passed.

[Rebel Virginia]

I'm sorry I'll try again since.

You're side is equal to ours.

Not better or worst. Understand know?

If Karma imposes secret terms, extorts outrageous reparations, subjects defeated alliances to humiliating viceroys, demands the forceful decommissioning of wonders, and then implements their own hegemony after the war is concluded, then you might be able to say that Karma is as bad as you guys. Until then, you got nothing. You simply have been that bad.

[enderland]

edit to add IC tags

IC

I've refrained from being too harsh on people on these boards since this started, with the exception of the 24 hours where NPO was left for dead, but this thread is the last straw.

True indeed. For some it was about power, for some it was about not being defeated by Hegemony for the 4th year straight, for some it was about saving the pixels and optionally join the fight from other side, for some it was about honoring treaties, but it wasn't about morals. Like Tyga indicated, the differences are smaller than people thought they were. Karma had a vested interest in speaking louder about 'morals' before the war, almost everyone shouted morals, suddenly with war, thats gone and people are into " 'We'd do the same old' but you cant call us 'same old' ok." You'll find examples in this very thread.

You are an idiot. Most of us are simply sick of having to live under the fear that the Hegemony, as it's so being called, would find a reason to make up a CB against them and destroy them for the hell of it. I'm sure you remember why Hyperion was attacked? You know what - that is an act for which I have no qualms going to war over. I have no qualms going to war against someone I believe to be immoral and who would love to destroy my alliance for the sake of satisfying some blood lust. I also have no qualms going to war against someone due to treaty obligations.

The amount of 'waaa waaa waaa they are gonna kill us and be hypocrits' posts from Hegemony members as of late is sickening; get a clue. At least 95% of you will never be involved in surrender discussions because of the way your governments work, you have and will have no idea what sort of surrender terms will be presented towards your alliances. I can tell you right now that your prophesying of doom will not come to fruition. If it were so, the alliances grouped as Karma wouldn't be together.

Hegemony = Karma

Same thing different name.

Just because you would like to have this be the way to justify your alliance's actions does not mean it is the case. If you are too blind to see the difference between NPO and co and those alliances fighting your ilk, I pity you.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Once these great powerhouses are gone they have total control.

So what you guys are trying to do it remove a pile of crap to put in a new pile of crap?

Fortunately Karma is not a block (like WUT, Continuum, etc) but a coalition of alliances, has no post war domination plans, and are not made up of power hungry leaders such as your own.

I'm sorry I'll try again since.

You're side is equal to ours.

Not better or worst. Understand know?

You are wrong. You are blinded. You are ignorant of the differences.

Understand now?

Simply because you cannot fathom alliances that don't act to oppress and act to establish a controlling hegemonic power structure for the sake of complete control of the political game doesn't mean they don't exist.

/IC

Edited April 28, 2009 by alden peterson

[Bob Janova]

Grub, I've been in Grämlins government for all but two of the past nine months, and I know that we were not planning a war for almost all of that time. The first time Grämlins became aware of any form of planning to defend against a possible Hegemony attack was, as I said, around the end of March when VE was under threat over the ODN/International issue. So while it is possible that you're right and there was planning going on, Grämlins didn't know about it.

Yes, we were prepared to go with our convictions and leave Continuum after seeing how the Polar war was dealt with. But we were not planning anything military at that point or for a long time later. Yes, Karma is pretty much 'the opposition' – one look at the MDP web would have picked the sides fairly accurately a month ago – but that doesn't mean that we've been actively planning for this day for months.

[shahman]

I do believe that terms should be designed to weaken such alliances politically to prevent them stepping back to where they were in a few months.

They tried that with Polar. We got sanction pre-term ending!

[eyriq]

The biggest thing to come from this conflict could be the Orders finding themselves on equal footing for the 1st time in probably ever. Polar really went through the refiners fire so to speak and came out looking really impressive and I have no reason to doubt that Pacifica won't come out of this in a similar manner. I'd look for that relationship to be renewed and stronger than ever.

[Näktergal]

Yes, Karma is pretty much 'the opposition' – one look at the MDP web would have picked the sides fairly accurately a month ago – but that doesn't mean that we've been actively planning for this day for months.

From everything I've seen, heard, and been aware of, it seems like "Karma" was basically just a lot of random discontent and backroom grumbling, along with a bit of minor little bonds being formed here and there. Sort of like a lot of little cells forming in different places, similar yet unconnected. Not a centralized conspiracy that formed from a central point and radiated outward - more like a dozen or more smaller little nuclei that kind of grew on their own, sent out feelers, and then bumped into each other along the way.

I can definitely buy the argument that the SPIRIT of what has become "Karma" has been around for months, even if what we're currently seeing as the main structure and organization of the links only came together in the last month or so.

In that sense, I'd say you're BOTH right - Grub's right that people have been talking about doing something about the NPO as far back as the NpO getting rolled, but at the same time, Bob's right that there hasn't been a massive organized conspiracy forming whole cloth for months.

[Druid]

Moar like the days of GPA and NADC.

[Druid]

I wasn't saying that. I was stating this a different war.

Every war is the same. All battle are personal.

You're side is equal to ours.

That is a gross misconception and a large overestimation of the powers of the NPO at the moment on your part, sir. Are you sure you were in GOONS?

Edited April 29, 2009 by Druid

[Tygaland]

They tried that with Polar. We got sanction pre-term ending!

Well, you weren't really politically weakened by the terms. Your terms were designed to financially cripple you in the long term and to sow seeds of discontent internally by secretly demanding members of your government be expelled on the quiet. To be honest, the political weakening of the NpO took place in the months preceding the war itself rather than after the war was over.

Edited April 29, 2009 by Tygaland

[Diogenes]

I have noticed it, and I also find it ironic. My feelings are pretty similar to uaciaut's.

The Hegemony grossly abused the power it had been granted by the status quo. Players were denied the ability to fully enjoy and appreciate this game and double-standards ran rampant. Those affected by these injustices banded together and formed what we know now as Karma.

Do I think that Karma is composed entirely of saints? Certainly not. It's far too diverse for that to be true, which is exactly why it won't last for any significant amount of time. I do have faith, though, that each and every Karma alliance has and will continue to promote a much more dynamic environment in which everyone has as an opportunity to succeed and speak freely, whether or not they are liked by whoever sits atop the alliance rankings.

What results of this war remains to be seen, obviously, but I've got high hopes.

[uaciaut]

snip

No planning on our side to go on any offensive, militarily or otherwise, as bob confirmed.

You may have heard rumors about a new bloc. Even if said rumors were true it's impossible to see it as an offensive/aggressive oriented one with many of the rumored alliances in it. Bloody rumors D:

But seriously NPO's natural aggressiveness did them in. Just like it happened with you guys. People didn't want to on their side automatically means they want to kill them. I think the bigger issues here is that there ARE people who want to kill them and as long as everyone's not on their side they may not make it. I don't see how provoking a war helped them - see case in point.

Also@NPO guy - you're claiming that Karma and Hegemony are just as bad with the purpose of lowering Karma's PR and raising yours through some kind of admittance or something? Either way that would at least be a step forward for you guys, never seen you admit to ever making mistakes or anything similar. And Karma is not as bad as you, as facts will prove

[brass]

So, no forcing the NPO to shift en masse into Yellow and appointing atrophis and mpol as co-Viceroys?

I hope not, I believe we've been punished enough!

[caligula]

Grub, I've been in Grämlins government for all but two of the past nine months, and I know that we were not planning a war for almost all of that time. The first time Grämlins became aware of any form of planning to defend against a possible Hegemony attack was, as I said, around the end of March when VE was under threat over the ODN/International issue. So while it is possible that you're right and there was planning going on, Grämlins didn't know about it.

Yes, we were prepared to go with our convictions and leave Continuum after seeing how the Polar war was dealt with. But we were not planning anything military at that point or for a long time later. Yes, Karma is pretty much 'the opposition' – one look at the MDP web would have picked the sides fairly accurately a month ago – but that doesn't mean that we've been actively planning for this day for months.

He still speaks the truth.

This was not something concieved over a short amount of time.

While the Gramlins may not have had plans, it was and is very clear that several key alliances/figures of Karma did.

Anyone who says otherwise is lying or does not have access to the kind of logs others do.

Also, I kind of actually liken Karma to the Initiative and the Hegemony to Aegis.

Karma, when taken into the hands of actual people, is no longer karma.

It is vengeance.

I've had a nation destroyed because of leaders of the Hegemony, and I thoroughly enjoyed watching one in particular grovel in an attempt to create a P.R. stunt that would somehow convince en masse the entire global population to somehow forget countless infractions of the past. It was hideous, and although I completely disagree with the individual, some of the responses in the thread were no better than that of hate. I sometimes even chuckled and wondered if they understood what karma actually meant.

Throughout it, I've seen intelligent leaders be able to reign in the dogs at times, but at others seemingly the inability to control the blood hungry dogs they've unleashed. It will truly be interesting to see the many leaders whom I've met and respected reign in such a bloodthirst.

I liken it to the OOC Rwandan holocaust. Granted, the death and peace terms take it out of context a bit, but it's the same concept. A long established rule over a people was lost and whence power was granted to the abused people they sought revenge. The Hutu government promotes killings of the Tutsis. The entire planet plays the role of the UN who simply doesn't want to get involved.

Granted, the peace terms Karma have offered are lenient to say the least, it still remains that an act of surrender is equivilant to the highest levels of desertion and by some circles treason. Thus, you could offer white peace, but there's nothing white about giving up your dignity.

Thus, I'm torn about the conflict.

Sure, I've seen some people who have needed their *** kicked fully receive it on the chin,

but I've also seen the community as a whole at times forget their reason for giving it in the first place, actively indiscriminantly flaming members from the government members who have wronged them in the past.

Wierd, huh?

Anyway, carry on, just another old timer giving out their perspective.

Edited April 29, 2009 by caligula