Why I just surrendered

[Blacky]

I am only hoping that I can make the Sith into something comparable (camaraderie-wise) over time and just caution those that speak of the demise of Pacifica too swiftly. It has faced death before.

The days of NPO using the fear of others to submit to their will are gone and they will never again return. There are many people in power in many alliances who will ensure that. And where once NPO was the alliance to adopt an attitude of never forgiving and never forgetting, it's the rest of the cyberverse who now have the same resolve to ensure that NPO is never fully restored to a position of power such as that which existed in the previous era.

[Jocko Homo]

From my experience, Pacifica has a long long memory.

Thats exactly right. Hence the reason a significant portion of my OP was directed at what Karma and even NPO allies need to understand before they end this war. The NPO beast has found itself some new targets for their seething hatred. And NPO does best when they have someone to focus their hate against. If you stop early and leave this animal only wouded it will recover, fueled by hatred and an unsatiable lust for vengence. And their "long, long memory" (in Ivans words) will be your alliances death. The planning has already started.

BTW, the Legion guy in this thread makes me lol. :lol: he has no idea...

[Jocko Homo]

The days of NPO using the fear of others to submit to their will are gone and they will never again return. There are many people in power in many alliances who will ensure that. And where once NPO was the alliance to adopt an attitude of never forgiving and never forgetting, it's the rest of the cyberverse who now have the same resolve to ensure that NPO is never fully restored to a position of power such as that which existed in the previous era.

If you honestly believe that then you sir are crazy. Better invest in a steamroller-proof suit now as it may help deaden your eventual pain a little bit.

[Pingu]

I am only hoping that I can make the Sith into something comparable (camaraderie-wise) over time and just caution those that speak of the demise of Pacifica too swiftly. It has faced death before.

Here is good sense, and all would do well to listen. I am confident Pacifica will survive, not least due to the quality and solidarity of its membership. Those of us who have been around a long time know that even severe destruction wreaked upon an alliance is not enough to eliminate it, if its community is sound. Force does not destroy an alliance. Even severe errors by leaders do not necessarily destroy an alliance. Only the utter collapse of morale and community can destroy an alliance.

To the OP: the time to leave was when you first realized the Order's ways were not for you, rather than amid the fires of battle. I cannot respect your decision.

[Blacky]

If you honestly believe that then you sir are crazy. Better invest in a steamroller-proof suit now as it may help deaden your eventual pain a little bit.

You seem to forget under whose steamroller the NPO is at the moment.

[Ivan Moldavi]

@ Original Poster

Good Post though you should have left.

Good post anyway.

@Ivan

I believe what OP said was true. Some members of NPO talk to others in a degrading tone and make everyone feel inferior. Actually, they TRY to make them feel inferior meaning it doesn't work with everyone. Those people are then isolated and basically destroyed be it physically or mentally.

If this sort of attitude was changed, I would have no problem applying to NPO after these wars were over. I applied once and even then I felt the sense of superiority some pacificans hold over others.

Such an attitude has always been a failing of certain Imperial Officers. I could never get some of them to realize that the first rule of leadership is sacrifice. And some of them I still get along well with today.

It takes all kinds to run a large military alliance.

In regards to the coup, I am not so sure the world would be too much different. I do know there would have been far more wars and far less treaties but the universal dislike and hatred of the New Pacific Order from those outside isn't exactly a new concept created by Karma.

[Delta1212]

Such an attitude has always been a failing of certain Imperial Officers. I could never get some of them to realize that the first rule of leadership is sacrifice. And some of them I still get along well with today.

It takes all kinds to run a large military alliance.

In regards to the coup, I am not so sure the world would be too much different. I do know there would have been far more wars and far less treaties but the universal dislike and hatred of the New Pacific Order from those outside isn't exactly a new concept created by Karma.

At the very least, Polar wouldn't be sitting on the sidelines.

[Ivan Moldavi]

At the very least, Polar wouldn't be sitting on the sidelines.

That is true, most likely. But that wouldn't bode well for you.

[Electron Sponge]

That is true, most likely. But that wouldn't bode well for you.

Indeed it wouldn't. Emperor Sponge was a mighty foe.

[Hymenbreach]

Be consistent here...the OP surrendered because he thought the NPO was in the wrong. Instead of being called honorable you advocate his destruction. But the Legion, you say, did the honorable thing by surrendering and accepting punishment for the stupid thing its leaders did. Why didn't you stay loyal to them and fight to the end?

Because they didn't stay loyal to us and remain in the alliance. I wasn't prepared to have the ordinary Joe Legionnaire smashed to pieces for the sake of an absent and (mostly) unpunished leadership. If there had been a leadership and they had stayed and fought, then so would I and other Legionnaires or left before the hot conflict began, as personal conscience demanded.

Edited April 29, 2009 by Hymenbreach

[Blacky]

That is true, most likely. But that wouldn't bode well for you.

Actually, had NPO not fought on the opposite side during the last war and instead choose to side with Polaris, then we would pretty much have a repeat to what is happening now albeit with slightly different sides. The NPO betrayed Polaris in her time of need, whereas Polaris did not even oppose the NPO side in this conflict.

Under a different leadership NPO would not have betrayed Polaris.

[Ivan Moldavi]

Actually, had NPO not fought on the opposite side during the last war and instead choose to side with Polaris, then we would pretty much have a repeat to what is happening now albeit with slightly different sides. The NPO betrayed Polaris in her time of need, whereas Polaris did not even oppose the NPO side in this conflict.

Under a different leadership NPO would not have betrayed Polaris.

Right, that is my point. NPO and Polar would be fighting together and those on the side of Karma could possibly find themselves in a different situation, although I have no way of knowing how the rest of the Cyberverse would have aligned in such a fantasy.

[Electron Sponge]

Right, that is my point. NPO and Polar would be fighting together and those on the side of Karma could possibly find themselves in a different situation, although I have no way of knowing how the rest of the Cyberverse would have aligned in such a fantasy.

We'd most likely not have had to worry about it because we aren't so stupid as to blunder into a telegraphed left hook like the current NPO leaders did. The spate of treaty cancellations beforehand would have probably tipped me off that something was up.

[Vilien]

We'd most likely not have had to worry about it because we aren't so stupid as to blunder into a telegraphed left hook like the current NPO leaders did. The spate of treaty cancellations beforehand would have probably tipped me off that something was up.

Whoa there! We didn't plan this at all.

[Blacky]

We'd most likely not have had to worry about it because we aren't so stupid as to blunder into a telegraphed left hook like the current NPO leaders did. The spate of treaty cancellations beforehand would have probably tipped me off that something was up.

True, and that is partly due to the arrogance which Ivan Moldavi foretold (in the apology later retracted after the first Great War) would cause for the inevitable destruction of an alliance. Only through humility and respect can an alliance truly succeed. Even your opposition deserves respect and should never be underestimated.

[flak attack]

Whoa there! We didn't plan this at all.

No, but a slew of treaty cancellations is usually a sign that you're making people mad, regardless of whether they have any intentions to attack.

[Electron Sponge]

Whoa there! We didn't plan this at all.

Never said you did. There doesn't have to be a conspiracy for conditions to be right for NPO to get hit in the mouth. Nearly all of what is happening to them is their own fault. Had Ivan Moldavi or some other competent person been leading NPO in the past few months you can bet your bottom dollar that we wouldn't be seeing them get lumped up like they are.

The blame for NPO's current disaster falls squarely on Moo's shoulders. He needs to do the right thing and step down. Perhaps someone with a little bit more charisma and energy will be able to right that ship before it slips under the waves.

[bzelger]

Never said you did. There doesn't have to be a conspiracy for conditions to be right for NPO to get hit in the mouth. Nearly all of what is happening to them is their own fault. Had Ivan Moldavi or some other competent person been leading NPO in the past few months you can bet your bottom dollar that we wouldn't be seeing them get lumped up like they are.

The blame for NPO's current disaster falls squarely on Moo's shoulders. He needs to do the right thing and step down. Perhaps someone with a little bit more charisma and energy will be able to right that ship before it slips under the waves.

You think there's someone with more personal appeal in the line of succession?

[Pingu]

The blame for NPO's current disaster falls squarely on Moo's shoulders. He needs to do the right thing and step down. Perhaps someone with a little bit more charisma and energy will be able to right that ship before it slips under the waves.

Sounds like a job for a handsome Viceroy of ODN with time on his hands. You're not busy, right?

[deth2munkies]

Never said you did. There doesn't have to be a conspiracy for conditions to be right for NPO to get hit in the mouth. Nearly all of what is happening to them is their own fault. Had Ivan Moldavi or some other competent person been leading NPO in the past few months you can bet your bottom dollar that we wouldn't be seeing them get lumped up like they are.

The blame for NPO's current disaster falls squarely on Moo's shoulders. He needs to do the right thing and step down. Perhaps someone with a little bit more charisma and energy will be able to right that ship before it slips under the waves.

The utter failing of the NPO in averting this conflict was DoWing OV. It was something so stupid and insignificant they could have ignored it and NOT given half the cyberverse a CB on them.

That said, Moo stepping down would change little, as the IO clique is either the same or worse. There'd have to be fresh blood from somewhere outside the government, and I never see that happening. What I do forsee is the NPO fading into the background for a while after the war. Getting themselves in order, and then seeking to reconnect with old allies to build up some semblance of a defensive structure again. I'd like to think the cyberverse as a whole won't fall for the ruse again, but who knows.

[Sal Paradise]

You think there's someone with more personal appeal in the line of succession?

I vote Koona.

[Vilien]

Never said you did. There doesn't have to be a conspiracy for conditions to be right for NPO to get hit in the mouth. Nearly all of what is happening to them is their own fault. Had Ivan Moldavi or some other competent person been leading NPO in the past few months you can bet your bottom dollar that we wouldn't be seeing them get lumped up like they are.

The blame for NPO's current disaster falls squarely on Moo's shoulders. He needs to do the right thing and step down. Perhaps someone with a little bit more charisma and energy will be able to right that ship before it slips under the waves.

It's not likely that someone like Ivan would have gotten into this situation in the first place, but Moo had already chosen his path when push came to shove. If it wasn't Ordo Verde, it would have had to have been someone else. Pacifica's political power was slipping to quickly, and something had to be done. It hasn't worked out as planned, but there wasn't much else that he could do.

[potato]

I vote Koona.

I thought we didn't want NPO to disband.

[Ivan Moldavi]

I personally do not believe the issue lies solely with the Emperor so much as with some of those that have been giving him counsel. Regardless, it is not my policy to seek out terms for the NPO in this conflict as I have no vested interest in seeing them lose.

Since I am not a part of Karma I have no call for the head of Moo or desire to see Pacifica rent asunder.

Presumptions on who could take control of the NPO in current circumstances and have it be more than just a shell or puppet to others would probably vary widely. Those that have the ability and charisma within the organization currently do not have the time to commit to it. Those that have the organizational skill lack the charisma. It is a quandary.

[Electron Sponge]

Sounds like a job for a handsome Viceroy of ODN with time on his hands. You're not busy, right?

I might be busy.

I vote Koona.

I'm sure this was in jest, but there quite possibly isn't a worse choice for someone to lead an alliance than Koona.