Public Notice from Karma

[Lafiel]

There is no non-chaining clause in the One Vision Treaty. If there was one, your argument would have been valid. The fact of the matter is that, if any 1V signatory is attacked (for any reason whatsoever), it is mandatory that they all ride against the threat. Echelon had EVERY obligation to declare war against all those alliances and that is the reason why everyone who canceled on NPO at the beginning of the war were called the "Coward Coalition".

On a note related to the topic: I would just like to remind everyone wishing to surrender to message us if you are surrendering... I don't like getting all ready to fire a CM at nations then get my hopes all ruined when I check their stats and see Karma PoW on the AA

I believe the term is completely clear ,If any signatory become under attack

you see nowhere mentioned that if any of signatory start a war other signatory have obligation to come to their aid.

you can ask the meaning of those lines from any first year student or any prophessor in any law school around the planet earth and they say what i said.

and as all the people of Planet Bob emigrated from planet earth culturally and hystorically they also translate it as that unless they have some gain in translating it otherwise .

[Thorr]

So what you're saying is that you're upset you're not allowed to get a cheap shot in before surrendering? If someone launches an attack on me just before surrendering I'd make sure they're getting hit back before getting peace too.

Very funny I didn't attack before I surrendered I only spied 1 time changing his defcon. I did a few bomb runs right after update many hours before any of this happened. Then started talking to Timlee about the war and found things I didn't know. I started looking into things as I saw TOP attacking our allies and was wondering why. Thus changing my mind to fight in this war. I did no cruise missle attack or ground attacks onto him that day.

I have proof of this.

I also sent no nukes that day and that can be verified as well. If you don't know what you are talking about it is wise to not say anything.

Edited April 29, 2009 by Thorr

[Deruvian]

you see nowhere mentioned that if any of signatory start a war other signatory have obligation to come to their aid.

Neither does it say they have no obligation. It only says that if the NPO is attacked (which it was) then they must come to their aid. The idea you are running on (that this was an offensive war and thus, Echelon did not need to come to the NPO's aid) is precisely the reason why chaining clauses such as the one below were invented.

The respective parties are not obliged to offer assistance should either signatory alliance become involved in a conflict via other treaties with other alliances or blocs. Either signatory alliance may offer assistance in such an event but any assistance would be voluntary.

The 1V treaty was never amended with a non-chaining clause therefore any attack on one signatory, be it from a defensive war or an offensive war, makes every other signatory obligated to defend them. The signatories of 1V were well aware of the presence of non-chaining clauses in treaties and, since they opted not to include or add a non-chaining clause, in effect agreed that they would ride in defense of each other upon ANY attack.

[Valkerie]

Valkerie of Elantix is quiting from Echelon, i'm in anarchy and i'm in financial meltdown

[Gerald Meanĕ]

Very funny I didn't attack before I surrendered I only spied 1 time changing his defcon. Then started talking to Timlee about the war and found things I didn't know. Thus changing my mind to fight in this war. I did no cruise missle attack or ground attacks onto him that day.

I have proof of this.

I also sent no nukes that day and that can be verified as well. If you don't know what you are talking about it is wise to not say anything.

Did you send that nation a peace offer/pm stating your intention for terms what not?

[Thorr]

Did you send that nation a peace offer/pm stating your intention for terms what not?

He had already done full attacks on me that day and that was perfectly fine. But he then followed it all over again the next day after update over 1 spy attack he said I shouldn't have done.

A cheap shot would have been me doing ground attacks and cruise missle attacks and nuke that I didn't do.

Yes I did his response is

To: Thorr From: Crohl Date: 4/29/2009 2:36:54 AM

Subject: Your surrender

Message: You're not going to get a cheap shot in with the spy attack then think you can achieve peace without repercussions. You recieved one more round of attacks. If you wish for peace now, then make sure you meet all terms and send a peace offer again.

If you retaliate your peace discussions will be considered null and void. You will also not be eligible for surrender terms for the duration of the war if you attack. You will be forced to wait out the war until TPF either gets peace or they disband.

I spied on him and Timlee before starting a conversation with Timlee and finding about TOP situation.

After telling him he needs to pay reps his response is and if he had problems with the spy attack it could of been resolved with Aid.

To: Thorr From: Crohl Date: 4/29/2009 11:59:13 AM

Subject: RE: Your attack

Message: You won't be getting them. In fact I'm tempted to nuke you for even asking. If you hadn't noticed I've gone rogue on TPF.

Therefore you have a rogue you all need to deal with and anyone who wants to verify this I will be willing to accept any inquiry into my nation's messages as necessary.

Edited April 29, 2009 by Thorr

[Gerald Meanĕ]

Bad luck really with who attacked you as he's gone rogue on tpf means that how he fights is up to his discretion and not an alliances (unless he joined up with one after getting out of tpf) as I'm sure anyone else would have apologized/had words for that member.

[Keres]

You use "Fact is" and "Most" like you have checked the "Big Bad" nations of Echelon lately? When in fact 11 of the top 30 nations are in PEACE MODE. only 1 of the top 5 are in PEACE MODE

Go back a couple days when it all started... and why the hell would your MOD of all people be in peace mode? fact is when this war started, You sent all the nations below you to fight while you all stood back waiting to jump in once they had been sent/send themselves in anarchy, hopeful they themselves would have made a dent in those stomping you so you can come in and claim you did "something"

that's if you weren't one of the few nations that didnt have time to slip into peace when it started hitting YOU

Edited April 29, 2009 by keres666

[Tralaria]

Guys, this sucks...

I surrendered, then I was attacked.

I informed him of my surrender...

Decomissioned improvements and began dismantling my military

and I was attacked...again...what the eff?

[Neo Anglia]

Valkerie of Elantix is quiting from Echelon, i'm in anarchy and i'm in financial meltdown

Awesome, I can say we owe debt of gratitude to Karma for helping us clear our ghosts from the membership rolls. That guy never even made it past the application process. Beer is on the house guys!

[Gen Lee]

Awesome, I can say we owe debt of gratitude to Karma for helping us clear our ghosts from the membership rolls. That guy never even made it past the application process. Beer is on the house guys!

Boy, I hope this can be made a weekly tradition then.

[Tralaria]

Guys, this sucks...

I surrendered, then I was attacked.

I informed him of my surrender...

Decomissioned improvements and began dismantling my military

and I was attacked...again...what the eff?

and he did it again

[Lord Brendan]

and he did it again

I've sent him a message, shouldn't happen again.

[Neo Anglia]

Boy, I hope this can be made a weekly tradition then.

I have no issue buying rounds, but next time you feel the urge to clear out our ghosties I'd prefer you just ask for a list instead of going whole hog into it :lol:

[Tralaria]

I've sent him a message, shouldn't happen again.

thanks, but guess what....SOMEONE ELSE ATTACKED ME!!

Not only is my alliance Karma POW, my nation bio says I am not in the war...

Oh, and this comes after I destroyed all my missile defenses, so naturally the cruise missiles hitting me are actually damaging me.

And, I'm supposed to decommission my military tomorrow...I don't feel safe doing that!!!!

Can we discuss alternative terms? I will NOT dismantle my military when I am attacked every few seconds

[NoFish]

I'm sorry about that, Tralaria. The guy who attacked you is something of an idiot. PM me with any damages incurred and I'll get some reparations sent to you, he's already been ordered to peace out.

[Solidus117]

who declared on Echelon ? you declared on other alliance who were raised in defense of Ordo Verde. so you entered an offensive war. while the other declared on you in defense of the other alliance ,the difference is you are in an offensive war and the others are in defensive war.

Let's see (apologies if I forget anyone): MA, RIA, TOP, TSO, Apocalypse, Assassins Order, APP, some other alliance I've forgotten. An no, we didn't enter into an aggressive war, please read my entry from earlier regarding the application of the One Vision treaty.

by the way as i mentionoed above no where in the one vision treaty it's stated that the other members must go to the defense of a member who is in an offensive war.each time you read it carefully you see it's only a defensive pact.and yes if any alliance come to help of an lliance who is in an offensive war depending on their treaties it may be valid or invalid cause for the war.here the discussionis about the one vision treaty and according to it Echelon have no obligation to declare war against all the alliances who were in defensive fight with NPO .so the reason of war must be something else and I don't claim that i know The reason only the people who issued that declaration know the real reason.

I .. I just ...

I put a question infront of you .

What's rephrasing the word ,is it more than sugarcoating the bitter truth or does it change the truth ?

I was asking you to rephrase your statements, as they did not register as common English to me.

[Neo Anglia]

Let's see (apologies if I forget anyone): MA, RIA, TOP, TSO, Apocalypse, Assassins Order, APP, some other alliance I've forgotten. An no, we didn't enter into an aggressive war, please read my entry from earlier regarding the application of the One Vision treaty.

I .. I just ...

I was asking you to rephrase your statements, as they did not register as common English to me.

Forget it man. It doesn't matter how you present this cigar as "just a cigar", he is always going to see Monica Lewinsky too

[PHDrillSarge]

I have complied to all terms and yet was still attacked with two cruise missile attacks, two unescorted bombs, and two spy ops.

Karma, I am disappointed that you treat your POWs this way. I have nothing to defend myself with after being nuked TWICE. Stabbing someone who has surrendered? I am shocked.

Edited April 30, 2009 by PHDrillSarge

[King Srqt]

I have complied to all terms and yet was still attacked with two cruise missile attacks, two unescorted bombs, and two spy ops.

Karma, I am disappointed that you treat your POWs this way. I have nothing to defend myself with after being nuked TWICE. Stabbing someone who has surrendered? I am shocked.

I am sure it was a misunderstanding and certainly is not sanctioned by Karma as a whole. Please pm the nations still at war with you to notify them of your surrender and I would also suggest contacting the government of their alliance(s) to be safe as well.

Edited April 30, 2009 by KingSrqt

[neneko]

I have complied to all terms and yet was still attacked with two cruise missile attacks, two unescorted bombs, and two spy ops.

Karma, I am disappointed that you treat your POWs this way. I have nothing to defend myself with after being nuked TWICE. Stabbing someone who has surrendered? I am shocked.

Yes all karma is evil bla bla.. Mistakes happends in all wars it's very hard to control each and every member in the war individualy. What you should do is send a message that you did surrender linking to your surrender post to your attackers. If you already did that I would recommend contacting the alliance government of the person that attacked you. Same goes for the guy further up that was attacked in PoW.

edit:

Tralaria and PHDrillSarge I see neither of you have signed the war resignation thread wich is one of the terms. Make a post in the thread about your surrender and send the link to your attackers. Just changing you AA to Karma POW isn't enough. Thread can be found here http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=213

Edited April 30, 2009 by neneko

[Prince Yvl]

Fellow Karma nations, please don't hit the guys when they're surrendering, even if they haven't posted in the thread. It's bad form. You see them waving the white flag unarmed, just because they haven't signed a piece of paper doesn't mean they're still a threat worth wasting your missiles on.

Edited April 30, 2009 by Prince Yvl

[Jens of the desert]

Fellow Karma nations, please don't hit the guys when they're surrendering, even if they haven't posted in the thread. It's bad form. You see them waving the white flag unarmed, just because they haven't signed a piece of paper doesn't mean they're still a threat worth wasting your missiles on.

I doubt it was on purpose.

[b3x]

Fellow Karma nations, please don't hit the guys when they're surrendering, even if they haven't posted in the thread. It's bad form. You see them waving the white flag unarmed, just because they haven't signed a piece of paper doesn't mean they're still a threat worth wasting your missiles on.

Say, How do we know if we are a fellow Karma nation? Am I getting a secret decoder ring?

[neneko]

Fellow Karma nations, please don't hit the guys when they're surrendering, even if they haven't posted in the thread. It's bad form. You see them waving the white flag unarmed, just because they haven't signed a piece of paper doesn't mean they're still a threat worth wasting your missiles on.

I don't think any alliance would support doing that but simply changing AA and not telling anyone makes it hard for people to know you've surrendered. We already had quite a few incidents where people ghosted Karma POW and kept attacking.