Public Notice from Karma

[Londo Mollari]

These are fair terms. Unfortunately a misguided sense of honour and duty means I will not be able to accept them.

You realize that your sense of honor and duty is misguided? Tell me, is it more honorable to support a cause you find you can no longer agree with than to accept the dictates of your conscience and abandon it?

[Delta1212]

You are pretty much exactly what Karma claims to wish to eliminate. You've remanufactured yourself by being the little guy for awhile, but you have not changed at all. Much like Sponge and Doitzel you pretty much were the Hegemony, had an altercation with those in charge and find yourself where you are now in an attempt to displace those that pushed you aside. I will get no honest discussion from you, and I would be foolish to continue this on as though I would. Have a pleasant evening.

Someone has a chip on their shoulder.

[Lord of Destruction]

Sure did. You see, through the magic of the internet words get misinterpreted. Im as calm as can be, I just think its time someone told everyone else to Shut the hell up.

The negative connotation of the words you use serve only the purpose of enraging the masses even further. If you want everyone to 'Shut the hell up', I suggest you do the same.

[Mogar]

Iran has launched an Iranian satellite into space on an Iranian rocket. Have you ever heard of Pirates launching Pirate built missiles? I think not, we are revolutionizing the way pirates are thought about. We are 16th century digital boys.

Mogar, Mogatopia's leader actually has a real pirate ship docked in our capital, it was bought from the great nation of Rebel Virginia.

[Matthew Conrad]

You get no cookie, it seems.

/me eats the cookie

OOC: You were much cooler and fun to listen to on the air

[Lord of Destruction]

You realize that your sense of honor and duty is misguided? Tell me, is it more honorable to support a cause you find you can no longer agree with than to accept the dictates of your conscience and abandon it?

He was being sarcastic, Londo.

[Hob Dobson]

Not if you read some of your posts on the forums. There seem to me to be quite a few of you who will likely be pushing for terms less fair post war.

I would wager that there are some in nearly every alliance who have past grievances they would like to see redressed, with compound interest and penalties. I guarantee this is true even within the halls of the Viridian Entente. It would be unfair to silence them lest they be heard by outside parties, even if the council they give cannot reasonably nor honorably be followed.

And if an alliance choses to exercise vengeance in place of justice, whether "Hegemony" or "Karma", one can be sure that many others will be taking that into consideration when dealing with that alliance in the future.

For whatever it's worth, I do recall that members of several of New Polar Order's allies were denied the possibility of individual surrender during the first week or two of the conflict In comparison to that, this is a step in the right direction.

[TailsK]

Stop dissing Mogar, I like him, his Boxxy avatar and his news service

[Lord of Destruction]

OOC: You were much cooler and fun to listen to on the air

OOC: Thank you. I'll be on again soon

[tobiash]

I object to the statement that anyone that doesn't surrender is not innocent. Some of those who do not surrender are simply honoring their word to their allies during a time of war... a noble action, not a cowardly one. Whether or not they surrender immediately has no real bearing on guilt or innocence or ability to make policy in their alliance.

You are right, I choose my words poorly and would like to apologise to all the honourble nations on planet Bob that stand their ground in the face of overwhelming odds.

What I meant to say was that any one who does not take terms as lenient as theese, Should not complain later if his/her nation is devastated or they have to accept worse terms as part of alliance wide terms.

[Aeternos Astramora]

Attention!

Karma: Stop insulting Hegemony over anything petty (read, everything thus far in this thread).

Hegemony: Stop declaring that Karma is just like Hegemony because these terms look similar to Hegemony's individual terms. For the most part, the Hegemony had decent individual terms. (The bad ones I'm thinking of I believe were from the Unjust Path.) What Karma is against are the alliance wide surrenders that made people get rid of factories, military wonders, massive war reparations, and disbandment and other aggressive acts like the start of this war and EZI/PZI lists.

Everyone: The above of course only applies to a few people in this thread.

Keep it respectful.

[Chairman Cao]

And? surrender is for pathetic people, if you aren't willing to die for your cause, you shouldn't be fighting for it to begin with.

Depends what the cause is. I support a tax incentive based increase in municipal recycling for example, but I can't honestly say I'd die for it.

Likewise some people here might not wish to die for the cause of hegemonial opression and exploitation. However I agree that once war comes you should stick by your alliance regardless, if you disagreed strongly with the direction of your alliance to begin with you should already have made your opinion known and if necessary moved out. The choice is harder though for some of the more minor allinaces who are nobly sticking by their allies even where they don't support the side's overall cause, and I would argue that such alliances should be prepared to take significant losses but should not be expected to fight to the death if their treaty partners stubbornly refuse to surrender.

That said, I hope the war goes on for a good while more before we get any significant surrenders

[Tygaland]

You are pretty much exactly what Karma claims to wish to eliminate. You've remanufactured yourself by being the little guy for awhile, but you have not changed at all.

Changed from what, The Eric? I've not manufactired anything, I am who I am. But then this is not really about me. It is about your claim the Karma is a fraud because they do not do everything as a complete opposite to the current regime and that this is proven because Karma have not changed the Cyberverse in less than a week. What mandate, at present, does Karma have to change anything at all seeing as the war has only just begun?

Much like Sponge and Doitzel you pretty much were the Hegemony, had an altercation with those in charge and find yourself where you are now in an attempt to displace those that pushed you aside. I will get no honest discussion from you, and I would be foolish to continue this on as though I would. Have a pleasant evening.

So I shoot down your idiotic "argument" and you round on me with incoherent attacks on my history as you see it and then claim you won't get an honest argument from me? Hilarious!

[Mogar]

Depends what the cause is. I support a tax incentive based increase in municipal recycling for example, but I can't honestly say I'd die for it.

Likewise some people here might not wish to die for the cause of hegemonial opression and exploitation. However I agree that once war comes you should stick by your alliance regardless, if you disagreed strongly with the direction of your alliance to begin with you should already have made your opinion known and if necessary moved out. The choice is harder though for some of the more minor allinaces who are nobly sticking by their allies even where they don't support the side's overall cause, and I would argue that such alliances should be prepared to take significant losses but should not be expected to fight to the death if their treaty partners stubbornly refuse to surrender.

That said, I hope the war goes on for a good while more before we get any significant surrenders

Any cause in the cyberverse that involves a potential war is worth dying for, and I disagree with NPO, I dont disagree with TPF, they're my friends and my allies, and I wont abandon them, I'm doubting any alliance will fight to the death, and based off how Karma leadership seems to be acting, I doubt any alliance wouldn't accept white peace.

[Cataduanes]

You are pretty much exactly what Karma claims to wish to eliminate. You've remanufactured yourself by being the little guy for awhile, but you have not changed at all. Much like Sponge and Doitzel you pretty much were the Hegemony, had an altercation with those in charge and find yourself where you are now in an attempt to displace those that pushed you aside. I will get no honest discussion from you, and I would be foolish to continue this on as though I would. Have a pleasant evening.

The fight for change is larger than a select few individuals my old friend, and therefore this coalition of change is larger than its component paths :jihad:

[Nonvalid]

Surrender terms already?

You seriously underestimate the NPO.

I understand what trying to be accomplished. But I can assure you that it won't go as well as you hope.

[Blacky]

<snip>

You seem a little outraged without a valid cause.

The Karma side has not always existed. So it's perfectly logical that power (nations and alliances) once supportive of the Hegemony have changed sides. The fact that they once did something one way or another is irrelevant. You can't claim hypocrisy on past actions which are no longer supported. It then just becomes a regular ad hominem attack.

The Karma side is already showing unprecedented leniency. Only 3-4 days in and individual surrender terms are already on the table.

What you should not expect to see from the Karma side is the following:

E-ZI or PZI

Viceroy imposed on a losing alliance

Forced disbandment (by lack of surrender terms)

War lasting many many weeks (as did the GATO war)

Decommisioning of wonders

Your alliance has decided to continue to support these actions. Yet despite our vehement opposition of them and your involvement in the war. Karma still leniently has offered a way out a way to end your support.

[Lord of Destruction]

The fight for change is larger than a select few individuals my old friend, and therefore this coalition of change is larger than its component paths :jihad:

This Coalition of Change (Oh my, CoC again? For goodness sake people, think of the children!) shall be interesting to watch. I wonder what will happen if they win, and achieve their goals. Will they be against the next large change in Bob?

[Barix9]

Surrender terms already?

You seriously underestimate the NPO.

I understand what trying to be accomplished. But I can assure you that it won't go as well as you hope.

No one said this was NPO terms, These are INDEVIDIUAL TERMS, this has nothing to do with an alliances preferance or power, this has to do with an INDEVIDUALs (omg such a big word I know!!!!) personal decisions

Edited April 26, 2009 by Barix9

[Cataduanes]

I wonder what will happen if they win,

Well change for one thing

Edited April 26, 2009 by Cataduanes

[Strykewolf]

Hmmmm

not bad.

Thought #7 is wrong in my book.

And according to some things I've seen, Blackhorse is a part of Karma. Though that is not our purpose or, intent. We are supporting DT...they have been good protectors for us.

When the time comes for peace with our opponents in SSSW18 and TOOL...I wouldn't require a resignation from any member of either alliance. Nor would I from the so-called Ebil NPO if we were facing them on the field.

Blackhorse's opponents have fought well.... I salute them.

Edited April 26, 2009 by Strykewolf

[Timeline]

/o Fair terms

1. Peace out of all wars.

2. Decommission soldiers down to no more than 50% of your working citizens for the duration of the terms.

3. Decommission all tanks for the duration of the terms.

4. Decommission all Naval vessels for the duration of the terms.

5. Decommission nuclear weapons for the duration of the terms.

6. Decommission military Improvements except for those needed to keep an SDI.

7. Post your resignation from your alliance in the public resignation thread on the OWF here: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=213

8. Switch your AA to Karma POW until the conflict is over or you are released, whichever comes first. Time spent as a POW shall not exceed 1 month in the event of extended conflict.

9. Do not re enter the conflict, including spying on Karma nations, or send aid to anyone fighting in the conflict for its duration.

10. Failure to comply with terms will result in a resumption of hostilities.

The only thing i think is missing, once your under Karma AA, you should never enter peace mode, its not good mmmmmmk

apart from that the terms are nice and easy to follow.

Edited April 26, 2009 by Timeline

[Nonvalid]

The Karma side is already showing unprecedented leniency.

From the logs I have seen, the original terms of surrender were far from lenient. Infact, they seemed to suggest not only putting the NPO in a position of great vulnerability, but also purposfully attemting to humiliate the NPO.

And some claim 'Karma' is honorable...

[neneko]

Hmmmm

not bad.

Thought #7 is wrong in my book.

And according to some things I've seen, Blackhorse is a part of Karma. Though that is not our purpose or, intent. We are supporting DT...they have been good protectors for us.

When the time comes for peace with our opponents in SSSW18 and TOOL...I wouldn't require a resignation from any member of either alliance. Nor would I from the so-called Ebil NPO if we were facing them on the field.

Blackhorses opponents have fought well.... I salute them.

I can't see alliances wanting to keep members that doesn't want to fight for it. Maybe that's just me though.

[raasaa]

Karma PoW, the next sanctioned alliance o/

Maybe someone should make a flag and CN forum tags for them as well