The Return and the Struggle

[King Srqt]

God the hypocrisy and rationalization here is so thick you can cut it with a knife.

What on earth are you even talking about. I am against EZI because I think people deserve the chance to play a different character after they "lose" with their first one. I only pointed out that Junka/Silva basically playing the same character across rerolls hurts the cause as it gives people like you a rationalization to EZI. How on earth is that hypocritical.

Or is this part of that being a mindless pawn that you said was not so bad in another thread.

Junka has always been pro NPO and one of the main reasons he didn't get along with Vox was that he basically wanted vox to follow the political model of NPO.

Do you ever actually look into what you talk about before you start spouting stuff or do you just like to hope no one calls you on your ignorance of the facts?

So you are saying he should have re-rolled as a pro vox clone? That wouldn’t have been much a new character would it? And the war declarations page pretty much proved that it was starfox that was holding the grudge.

I'll ignore the irony that your own allaince founder doesn't even come close to the standards you are setting for a re-roll.

No he should have rerolled as someone with no opinion on Vox until he had an IC reaosn to have an opinion on them not as someone who had a vehement hatred of them from the moment of his creation for no reason other than grudges from another life.

Edited April 4, 2009 by KingSrqt

[Stumpy Jung Il]

So you are saying he should have re-rolled as a pro vox clone? That wouldn’t have been much a new character would it? And the war declarations page pretty much proved that it was starfox that was holding the grudge.

I'll ignore the irony that your own allaince founder doesn't even come close to the standards you are setting for a re-roll.

He doesn't claim he is trying and being persecuted, nor does he even try to hide it. Im not talking standards, Im talking what happened.

[Kowalski]

It isn't difficult to remain secret as a re-roll as long as you can keep your ego in check. However numerous cases have proven that going from the CN version of a C-list celebrity to a 'nobody' is too hard and the urge to burst forth screaming "Look! It's me! Adore me and love me again! Show me the attention I've missed!" is too much to resist.

IP's used to track re-rolls? Do me a favour. Do you really think there are people who compare every single IP that accesses certain forums with the IP's of those on EZI lists just in case one of them happens to match. IP's are used to confirm positive ID's, the initial evidence is always the re-roll giving themselves away.

I'm sure there will be "I happen to know that this does happen" or "don't be so naive, you obviously don't know what goes on" comments but if these ludicrous claims are going to be made then let's see some proof. I'm sorry but nobody is saying JB or anyone can't play CN, just wipe the slate clean and start afresh. Either that or don't act like an asshat in the first place. If JB wants to keep his name because of the goodwill associated with it and still be able to converse with old friends and contacts made while using the name JB then no matter how many times he re-rolls he'll still be the same character, and as the punishment was dished out due to the actions of his character rather than his nation it's to be expected.

[Londo Mollari]

There are certainly circumstances which warrant attacking a reroll. OOC attacks may warrant OOC punishment (via the continued attacking of a reroll), as well as supposedly creating a new "character" and continuing to play the same "character" as before. That said, punishment should always fit the crime, and while I am not informed of all the particulars of this situation, that does not seem to be the case here.

Attacking someone for over a year, refusing to give them a second chance in any form over IC actions, smacks of deep hatred and an inability to let go of this past. Alliance leaders should remember that they have a responsibility not only to their alliance communities, but to the global CN community, because as the larger community rises or falls, prospers or suffers, so does their alliance and all others. It's all fine and well to have capital punishment (EZI) on the books, as a deterrent or to punish the most heinous criminals. When you start sending everyone who looks at you funny to the electric chair, however, you have suborned the legitimate function of the punishment and made the punishment itself into a crime against the greater community, which harms all of us in the end.

[Kowalski]

As usual Londo you are right, although in this particular case as far back as I can remember JB has been a frequent public critic and fervent log-dumper and I would say that he's done a lot more than just look at NPO funny. I don't know JB so can't give my personal opinion on him but I'm not surprised that he isn't liked by a number of alliances.

[Kindom of Goon]

I still don't understand why it matters if you keep your old name, old friends or even hold on to your old grudges and resentment. Its not like any of the things I've just outlined are the reasons why nations get ZI'd or at least I hope not, the only thing that matters is the crime. If I just sentanced someone to Perma ZI (not EZI) and they re-roll I would not care about who they hang around with, whether they make references to their old character or even if they still dislike me, what I would care about is whether or not they'll commit the same crimes again, if they don't then we'd both go our seperate ways, if they carry on the process will repeat and they'll be EZI by default until they stop.

[Kowalski]

I still don't understand why it matters if you keep your old name, old friends or even hold on to your old grudges and resentment. Its not like any of the things I've just outlined are the reasons why nations get ZI'd or at least I hope not, the only thing that matters is the crime. If I just sentanced someone to Perma ZI (not EZI) and they re-roll I would not care about who they hang around with, whether they make references to their old character or even if they still dislike me, what I would care about is whether or not they'll commit the same crimes again, if they don't then we'd both go our seperate ways, if they carry on the process will repeat and they'll be EZI by default until they stop.

I guess the issue is that those who have JB on their EZI lists are pretty sure that he's gonna commit the same crimes again, and I'd image the endless stream of threads like this probably doesn't help. The only way this will be solved is by someone swallowing their pride, either by the alliances releasing JB and giving him another chance against their better judgement or by JB re-rolling 'properly' as another character so that he can enjoy the game without looking over his shoulder. Don't hold your breath for either.

[King Srqt]

If JB wants to keep his name because of the goodwill associated with it and still be able to converse with old friends and contacts made while using the name JB then no matter how many times he re-rolls he'll still be the same character, and as the punishment was dished out due to the actions of his character rather than his nation it's to be expected.

NO. It means that no matter how many times he re-rolls he will be the same OOC person, if he doesn't let those friendships interfere with his IC persona than it should not be an issue. the problem here is that people can't separate IC from OOC and if they know who you are you are dead. That should not be the way any game is played regardless of the" security of your alliance" (which is a joke by the way this is a game and nothing more).

EZI is griefing and nothing more, it is bad for the game and community, which is why anyone who tries to do similar things in other games are either run from the game by the community or the game developers.

Also I know of instances where people were discovered from nothing more than their host masks being recognized on IRC (JtG and Barakaday to name two)

[Goose]

From my understanding, his crimes are founding Vox, and log dumping. As to founding Vox, others that were far more involved than him have been let off, so I don't accept that as a reason for EZI. As for log dumping, the surest protection from that is to not talk to him. Destroying his nation will not stop him from log dumping if you speak with him, whether he has 100k NS or 3 NS.

If it's the vendetta you fear crossing to his new nation, that will come out soon enough and you'll have a valid reason to attack him again. I just don't see the reasoning behind the punishment being meted out.

[Kowalski]

NO. It means that no matter how many times he re-rolls he will be the same OOC person, if he doesn't let those friendships interfere with his IC persona than it should not be an issue. the problem here is that people can't separate IC from OOC and if they know who you are you are dead. That should not be the way any game is played regardless of the" security of your alliance" (which is a joke by the way this is a game and nothing more).

EZI is griefing and nothing more, it is bad for the game and community, which is why anyone who tries to do similar things in other games are either run from the game by the community or the game developers.

Also I know of instances where people were discovered from nothing more than their host masks being recognized on IRC (JtG and Barakaday to name two)

You can't say "NO" and then agree with me - I'm pretty sure that "if he doesn't let those friendships interfere with his IC persona than it should not be an issue" (your version) and "If JB wants to keep his name because of the goodwill associated with it and still be able to converse with old friends and contacts made while using the name JB then no matter how many times he re-rolls he'll still be the same character" (my version) are much the same thing.

Basically if he separates his new character from his old then it's cool, but as soon as he starts trading on his old name and using it to re-establish contacts or add weight to any arguments or proposals then that is not a new character.

[Kindom of Goon]

I guess the issue is that those who have JB on their EZI lists are pretty sure that he's gonna commit the same crimes again, and I'd image the endless stream of threads like this probably doesn't help. The only way this will be solved is by someone swallowing their pride

Why punish him before he commits the crime? If he does it again ZI/Perma ZI him again, is it really that hard? Theres little or no practical benifits to EZI, certainly nothing that even comes close to justifying its use.

[Kowalski]

Why punish him before he commits the crime? If he does it again ZI/Perma ZI him again, is it really that hard? Theres little or no practical benifits to EZI, certainly nothing that even comes close to justifying its use.

Why give him the chance to commit a crime you know he's going to commit? That's isn't my view btw, just a hypothetical counter-argument.

[Doitzel]

Why give him the chance to commit a crime you know he's going to commit? That's isn't my view btw, just a hypothetical counter-argument.

I wasn't aware that IRON could predict the future.

And christ, "crime"? Really? Stop feeding these peoples' conceptions that they're the world's police. They aren't.

[Kindom of Goon]

Why give him the chance to commit a crime you know he's going to commit? That's isn't my view btw, just a hypothetical counter-argument.

Well firstly you don't know he's going to commit it do you? I mean for someone who has tried so hard to attain peace it would make little sense for him to go out there and commit the same crimes again, not to mention very difficult (I mean whats he going to do, join Vox again? log dumps of convo's no one is likely to have with him?).

Secondly, even if you think he'll end up becoming an enemy, so what? Its all a part of the game.

Edited April 4, 2009 by Kindom of Goon

[Iotupa]

From my understanding, his crimes are founding Vox, and log dumping. As to founding Vox, others that were far more involved than him have been let off, so I don't accept that as a reason for EZI. As for log dumping, the surest protection from that is to not talk to him. Destroying his nation will not stop him from log dumping if you speak with him, whether he has 100k NS or 3 NS.

If it's the vendetta you fear crossing to his new nation, that will come out soon enough and you'll have a valid reason to attack him again. I just don't see the reasoning behind the punishment being meted out.

There are a number of things I could respond to at this point, but I'm going to limit it to Goose's post here, just to clear up a little misconception that seems to be going around. The reason I have been told I am on the two e-ZI lists and one p-ZI list, and previously on the GGA's list, is that I founded Vox Populi. Nothing else. No other reason has been given for why I remain on the multiple types of ZI lists, despite my asking numerous times, as well as many others asking as well.

Contrary to what they want you to believe, I don't just go log dumping randomly all the time. It's not something I've done since I joined CN, nor is it something I've done every day since I was placed on e-ZI. I have placed logs on the forums TWICE. Both times have been a result of not being able to play CN, not because I have some "log dumping gene" or because I "made it a habit to dump logs all the time." As someone else pointed out earlier in the thread, I had been attempting to negotiate my peace for a couple of weeks prior to Starfox101 making the thread with my written piece in it. The reason why that was piece was written was because, frankly, I was legitimately concerned at what CN had degenerated to. It was spurred both by Finster's comments to me and by some of the stuff I was seeing in the OOC sections of the forums by some of the CN players.

Edited April 4, 2009 by Jonathan Brookbank

[Kowalski]

Well firstly you don't know he's going to commit it do you? I mean for someone who has tried so hard to attain peace it would make little sense for him to go out there and commit the same crimes again, not to mention very difficult (I mean whats he going to do, join Vox again? log dumps of convo's no one is likely to have with him?).

It would be very easy to answer yes to all of those questions and be deadly serious about it.

Secondly, even if you think he'll end up becoming an enemy, so what? Its all a part of the game.

Of course it is, but we all play the game in different ways. Maybe the way NPO & IRON play the game they'd rather not have that sort of enemy. That's their prerogative.

[Sooner]

Best of luck, JB.

[JaneSays]

Back in the day you were a huge *insert obscenity here*, but since then, you are better now, you know, not as fracking *edited* as you were once upon a time.

Good luck to you

[Denial]

I wasn't aware that IRON could predict the future.

And christ, "crime"? Really? Stop feeding these peoples' conceptions that they're the world's police. They aren't.

Word around the watercooler is that IRON recently acquired three precogs and have established their very own Department of Precrime.

[Unko Kalaikz]

Indeed. I have told you from pretty much day one Silva that you are obviously and loudly carrying over grudges and that it is nothing but detrimental to anyone who supports the removal of EZI from this game.

I have not seen once how Junkalunka/Mobius 1's supposed grudges at all resembled my opinions. Indeed, I refuted a core principle of Mobiu 1's definition of self interests, the centerpiece of his entire ideological works. According to the CN wiki this was Mobius 1's last thread:

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=41491

All he did in that thread was say, rather courteously, that there were ideological differences between Vox and himself, and gave some positive advice to Vox. Vox Starfox on the other hand proceeded to fill the thread with hate. I wonder where the real grudges lie?

Secondly, my first nation was born December 8th or so, and I was not active for a good month or so. Later I joined NATO and began to take an interest in this peculiar alliance Vox, which happened to be an enemy of NATOs. I began to post my thoughts about Vox and that seemed to attract alot of hate from Vox (because free speech is only for them), and the rest is history.

Edited April 4, 2009 by Count da Silva

[Haflinger]

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that because I have access to TOP government IRC channels and forums, that if I then copy/paste or screenshot the contents and distribute them, it does not constitute spying because I was granted access to those areas as a result of my position in the alliance?

It's betrayal. Not spying. Doing that would make you a traitor to TOP, but it's a different type of crime.

Junka has always been pro NPO and one of the main reasons he didn't get along with Vox was that he basically wanted vox to follow the political model of NPO.

Wow, now there's a stretch.

Pro NPO?

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He clearly was a fan of The Citadel though. Maybe you'd like to show me all the posts by Count da Silva where he constantly praised The Citadel alliances?

[Nintenderek]

It's betrayal. Not spying. Doing that would make you a traitor to TOP, but it's a different type of crime.

Wow, now there's a stretch.

Pro NPO?

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He clearly was a fan of The Citadel though. Maybe you'd like to show me all the posts by Count da Silva where he constantly praised The Citadel alliances?

If your honestly trying to say Junka wasn't a fan of NPO, you've never talked to him.

[Bob Sanders]

I don't think JB has ever done an OOC log dump ... you are confusing him with Kuru (or just trying to smear his name OOC).

Did you even read my post? I didn't say anything about him doing an OOC logdump. I will unequivocally say that his conversation with ironchef that he logdumped would not have happened if he they were not OOC friends. He betrayed that OOC friendship. Hence my recommendation that anyone who doesn't want to get logdumped just put him on ignore and never talk to him.

[FallenFighter]

Good luck Jonathan, You will need it.

[RandomInterrupt]

I notice you omitted the part where you went on a hissing-and-spitting vendetta against us that from the get-go made it pretty bloody obvious who you were. The lack of separation between your characters was because there were no separate characters. You changed your name and re-worked your arguments and picked everything else back up where you left it.

And here I was under the impression that you'd dropped it -- you'll notice, from my previous silence, that *I* have. It's funny that your criticism of JB is followed by you doing exactly the same thing. Give me a break.

ITT Doitzel argues alongside the Hegemony's party line. I thought Vox Populi was fighting to end this kind of thing? So you really believe that someone who commited a "crime" on one character should be punished on another character due to a conversation on IRC? Isn't this the same punishment that JB is apparently held to? This is me disappointed. Or perhaps I just thought more highly of Vox Populi than I should have.