TSO announcement

[Blue Lightning]

TOP is teaching TSO their ways. Just suck up and pay in exchange for survival. Who needs war when these "I'll do anything to live" alliances pay reps before any shots are fired? War is just for smashing unconnected alliances.

Second best post in the thread.

MCXA must of wanted to pwn you guys, and now you gotta pay these reps to get out of getting your butts whipped lol

Best post in the thread.

Who would win in a war?

TOP+TSO VS. MCXA??

If it was supposed be only these 3?

Would be an interesting scrap.

[SleepiB]

Would be an interesting scrap.

I think TSO vs MCXA would be much more interesting, adding TOP to the mix would just turn it into a steamroll op instead of a war of attrition.

[Bob Janova]

Yeah TOP would ride right through MCXA on their own.

Jipps: throwing yourself face-first into the meatgrinder for the sake of 'values' is a silly thing to do. It is notable that the people who wax lyrical about such things are always in well protected alliances which have never seen a war from the wrong end.

[elpadrino]

Who would win in a war?

TOP+TSO VS. MCXA??

If it was supposed be only these 3?

MCXA would beatdown both + all their allies alone.. :jihad:

Edited March 5, 2009 by elpadrino

[hizzy]

MCXA will beatdown both + all their allies alone.. :jihad:

You make a compelling argument.

[SleepiB]

MCXA will beatdown both + all their allies alone.. :jihad:

[jer]

Jipps: throwing yourself face-first into the meatgrinder for the sake of 'values' is a silly thing to do. It is notable that the people who wax lyrical about such things are always in well protected alliances which have never seen a war from the wrong end.

This attitude saddens me. And that second sentence is patently not true.

[elpadrino]

P.D: I mean would not will

Edited March 5, 2009 by elpadrino

[Bob Janova]

Okay maybe it just annoys me when it is coming from people who have never done what they tell others to do.

But, even your heroes STA, MK and so on perform a risk-reward calculation. They do not jump straight into conflict for moral reasons. There is a difference between honouring a treaty and actively starting a war, which is what Jpipps was suggesting MCXA should have done.

[Some-Guy]

Who would win in a war?

TOP+TSO VS. MCXA??

If it was supposed be only these 3?

It would be most unlikely that circumstance and Paradoxia's diplomatic proficiency would ever allow such a situation to occur.

If in some artificially created scenario in which neither TSO or MCXA would yield to TOP diplomacy to the point of our exhaustion, we would probably nuke them both equally whist being satisfied that we had done our very best for our allies.

[dvdcchn]

good luck TSO, nicely done

[shahenshah]

as a former MCXA member with many friends remaining in MCXA id like to thank the TSO members who claim they could have cancled treaties and had us nuke each other for chosing the lesser evil.

that and im sure it would have been alot harder for TSO to find someone to protect them had they done this.

o/

If you are among the recent lot that left MXCA after TSO incident then you are not much different..infact worse..atleast TSO is paying the reps and at the end of the day, united and are standing together while the others who left just ran straight into the hiding of other alliances and are too scared to come out and take a chance..TSO took a chance..makes them more daring than the lot who just ran away here and there.

However if you are not the one who left related to TSO incident, ignore the above lines..and I agree with your assessment that TSO's rasher actions would have meant certain destruction of them.

[Vilien]

Okay maybe it just annoys me when it is coming from people who have never done what they tell others to do.

But, even your heroes STA, MK and so on perform a risk-reward calculation. They do not jump straight into conflict for moral reasons. There is a difference between honouring a treaty and actively starting a war, which is what Jpipps was suggesting MCXA should have done.

This isn't even the issue. Jipps doesn't understand that TSO doesn't have the moral high ground. There's no honor for them to defend.

[Jipps]

Yeah TOP would ride right through MCXA on their own.

Jipps: throwing yourself face-first into the meatgrinder for the sake of 'values' is a silly thing to do. It is notable that the people who wax lyrical about such things are always in well protected alliances which have never seen a war from the wrong end.

Yes, because if we don't go to war for values what should we go to war for?

Don't be so quick to judge when you do not know my history.

Okay maybe it just annoys me when it is coming from people who have never done what they tell others to do.

But, even your heroes STA, MK and so on perform a risk-reward calculation. They do not jump straight into conflict for moral reasons. There is a difference between honouring a treaty and actively starting a war, which is what Jpipps was suggesting MCXA should have done.

I wasn't aware that my heroes were STA and MK, besides that sometimes calculating moves is the best way to fight for your morals as long as you plan to take action upon them.

Offensive war isn't inheretly wrong. MCXA had a very clear reason for war, a lot better than some other CBs in CN's history. My point is simply that if you ever go so far as to consider war, you shouldn't take money as compensation for it.

[Ilya Murometz]

As a soldier within the MCXA I'd like to say a few things - (the following are my own views):

Sal Paradice - you sir are quite hilarious. :lol:

Jipps - the whole point of considering war, is that you are deciding whether to start one or not. You aren't actually starting one.

You can consider the war, then opt out of it. Considering means it could go either way. Rest assured the reparations had no effect as to whether we went to war with TSO or not. The reparations may have prevented a Cold War between MCXA and TSO, but it wasn't going to get hot. Why not one may ask? Well MCXA has this little thing, (and why I joined MCXA) is that we actually think of our alliance's future, before we fight, unless honor is at stake. You cannot be dishonorable for not wiping out an alliance smaller then yours (6-7 times smaller actually) simply because they insulted you. Now if they insulted and then went to war with your allies, that's a different story.

Sam - please don't tell me the only reason you are paying the reparations is the kindness of your heart. TSO's status within a certain big block of nations was hurt, especially after the disastrous DoE, and this thread serves as a first step to begin healing the sitatuion. While on topic, are we getting more reps due to DoE? As Maxflies said, we'll spend them more prudently then that one mythical nation on Earth.

It's not money for a right to exist, it's...ok think of it this way: if you flick off a police officer, and he pulls you over and writes you a ticket, instead of sending you to jail, would you pay the ticket? Is the officer dishonorable for writing you a ticket instead of putting you in jail, when your flicking off took place in the spur of the moment, when you were pissed off for unrelated reasons - should you go to jail for an emotion that didn't kill anyone, whose display you severely regret?

I think it shows that MCXA has quite a bit of honor, being able to brush this incident off, without going all out like Bush did. I'm more proud of my alliance now, then I ever was before. MCXA dealt with this situation honorably, as did TOP, as did TSO - unfortunately not from the begining, but they cooled down after realizing the errors of their ways. Yes TSO still has negative honor points to clean up, but I think they can do so, it may take quite a while though, maybe even a year.

That being said, TSO we expect more bailout cash B) Only difference here is that you are bailing yourselves out of your diplomatic fiasco. For further elucidation, see the 72 page fiasco, aka TSO DoE, and if you read between the lines, the CB is in that thread.

Edit: what could have been the CB is in that thread. Sorry I just get annoyed with people going "tell me, tell me now!" Looking at you Jipps.

Edit2: Regarding the Logan post, I have known Logan for quite a while, and to say that Logan lost honor in this affair, is to !@#$%^&* without knowing any of the facts. (Few know all the facts, but everyone knows some facts, or should know some of them.) Asking Logan first on IRC about it would be prudent.

Edited March 6, 2009 by Ilya Murometz

[Jipps]

Jipps - the whole point of considering war, is that you are deciding whether to start one or not. You aren't actually starting one.

You can consider the war, then opt out of it. Considering means it could go either way. Rest assured the reparations had no effect as to whether we went to war with TSO or not. The reparations may have prevented a Cold War between MCXA and TSO, but it wasn't going to get hot. Why not one may ask? Well MCXA has this little thing, (and why I joined MCXA) is that we actually think of our alliance's future, before we fight, unless honor is at stake. You cannot be dishonorable for not wiping out an alliance smaller then yours (6-7 times smaller actually) simply because they insulted you. Now if they insulted and then went to war with your allies, that's a different story.

Edit: what could have been the CB is in that thread. Sorry I just get annoyed with people going "tell me, tell me now!" Looking at you Jipps.

I was stating that you shouldn't able to buy yourself out of a war and if so, you weren't just in considering war in the first place. This has less to do with consideration of war, as to the fact that you took money to compensate for it. I would expect that having 90% of your gov drop out and leave with little notice, would be on the grounds of defending the honor and dignity of MCXA. However, in the end, that's the descsion of MCXA's to make not mine.

My apologies if I came out as demanding or annoying, just engaging in friendly debate.

[keltoi]

As a soldier within the MCXA I'd like to say a few things - (the following are my own views):

Sam - please don't tell me the only reason you are paying the reparations is the kindness of your heart. TSO's status within a certain big block of nations was hurt, especially after the disastrous DoE, and this thread serves as a first step to begin healing the sitatuion. While on topic, are we getting more reps due to DoE? As Maxflies said, we'll spend them more prudently then that one mythical nation on Earth.

That being said, TSO we expect more bailout cash B) Only difference here is that you are bailing yourselves out of your diplomatic fiasco. For further elucidation, see the 72 page fiasco, aka TSO DoE, and if you read between the lines, the CB is in that thread.

Since i've seen this bandied about irc from more than one person i wish to clarify this, this was a final offer, there will be no additional payments made. 3 mill per mcxa nation (ghosts excluded) = roughly 1.7 billion. How it's spent, where it goes, that's up to you guys.

[nc1701]

If you are among the recent lot that left MXCA after TSO incident then you are not much different..infact worse..atleast TSO is paying the reps and at the end of the day, united and are standing together while the others who left just ran straight into the hiding of other alliances and are too scared to come out and take a chance..TSO took a chance..makes them more daring than the lot who just ran away here and there.

However if you are not the one who left related to TSO incident, ignore the above lines..and I agree with your assessment that TSO's rasher actions would have meant certain destruction of them.

You sir should hold your tongue, Logan1 has risked more to protect MCXA than almost any other person I can think of. He left only because he didn't care to weather the disgusting actions and personal attacks from TSO, and TSO sympathizers. They have been dealt with, but the damage is done:(

Both I and the MCXA hold Logan1 in high esteem and he is always welcome back should he decide to return. I understand you cannot be aware of all the facts shahenshaw, but attacking people when you are so completely ignorant of the situation is not wise.

[Heft]

I was stating that you shouldn't able to buy yourself out of a war and if so, you weren't just in considering war in the first place. This has less to do with consideration of war, as to the fact that you took money to compensate for it. I would expect that having 90% of your gov drop out and leave with little notice, would be on the grounds of defending the honor and dignity of MCXA. However, in the end, that's the descsion of MCXA's to make not mine.

My apologies if I came out as demanding or annoying, just engaging in friendly debate.

I'm not at all qualified enough to speak about this specific instance, but substituting reparations for all-out war is a relatively common occurence and is in fact generally considered laudable, as a "diplomatic" alternative to war. In most of these situations (and this part would seem to be true here as well), one party in the process would be assured of victory in any war, should it come. So then war is basically a punishing action. Reparations are also a punishing action, though considered a lesser one. So it's not that an alliance is "buying" its way out of being attacked, but that, through negotiation and attempts to come to an understanding, a lesser punishment (perhaps supplemented by other terms) is given instead of the greater punishment. Or, perhaps the offended alliance simply decides that whatever offense happened isn't really sufficient cause for the trouble of going to war, but is still deserving of some sort of punishment, in which case they would select the lesser. I can kind of understand where you're coming from, where it looks like it could be akin to a bribe, but, really, if they had wanted to go to war, then they would have, and I don't think any bribe would have stopped them.

[Sephiroth]

Its good to see you guys try to make things right between yourselves and MCXA, I'm impressed. Good luck and I look forward to seeing more of you guys.

[Ilya Murometz]

I was stating that you shouldn't able to buy yourself out of a war and if so, you weren't just in considering war in the first place. This has less to do with consideration of war, as to the fact that you took money to compensate for it. I would expect that having 90% of your gov drop out and leave with little notice, would be on the grounds of defending the honor and dignity of MCXA. However, in the end, that's the descsion of MCXA's to make not mine.

My apologies if I came out as demanding or annoying, just engaging in friendly debate.

Once again re-read my post.

1. We decided not to war TSO, even though we had a CB. (Not every war is a CB, not every CB is a war.)

2. In order to help their tarnished reputation with the Continuum, TSO offerred us money.

3. The two above mentioned events are separated from one another.

4. Money did not compensate war. It simply relieved some diplomatic pressure against TSO, and believe me there was/is still quite a bit of it.

5. Considerations are not declarations, dictionary.com is your friend.

6. You are not one to comment on my alliance's honor and dignity Jipps.

7. The above post shows why you generally are left in the dark.

Since i've seen this bandied about irc from more than one person i wish to clarify this, this was a final offer, there will be no additional payments made. 3 mill per mcxa nation (ghosts excluded) = roughly 1.7 billion. How it's spent, where it goes, that's up to you guys.

Perhaps if our forums weren't "experiencing maintenance", we would all know that by now. Whatever happened with the forums, and I'm not blaming TSO for it, yet you guys should cooperate with our government in forum restoration, and if you are already doing so - that's another point for TSO.

I'm not at all qualified enough to speak about this specific instance, but substituting reparations for all-out war is a relatively common occurence and is in fact generally considered laudable, as a "diplomatic" alternative to war. In most of these situations (and this part would seem to be true here as well), one party in the process would be assured of victory in any war, should it come. So then war is basically a punishing action. Reparations are also a punishing action, though considered a lesser one. So it's not that an alliance is "buying" its way out of being attacked, but that, through negotiation and attempts to come to an understanding, a lesser punishment (perhaps supplemented by other terms) is given instead of the greater punishment. Or, perhaps the offended alliance simply decides that whatever offense happened isn't really sufficient cause for the trouble of going to war, but is still deserving of some sort of punishment, in which case they would select the lesser. I can kind of understand where you're coming from, where it looks like it could be akin to a bribe, but, really, if they had wanted to go to war, then they would have, and I don't think any bribe would have stopped them.

This man speaks the truth. If we really wanted war, TSO would have been rolled by now.

[Libera]

Perhaps if our forums weren't "experiencing maintenance", we would all know that by now. Whatever happened with the forums, and I'm not blaming TSO for it, yet you guys should cooperate with our government in forum restoration, and if you are already doing so - that's another point for TSO.

Forgive me, but outside of us just being kind, how are we responsible for fixing YOUR forums? We didn't break them or take them down.

[Incitatus]

It's easy to say sorry and to be honest, I don't think the tech comes close to replacing the damages you cause MCXA. I'll be looking to see if you end up redeeming yourselves TSO...but you got a long way to go.

[Doug Falkner]

You sir should hold your tongue, Logan1 has risked more to protect MCXA than almost any other person I can think of. He left only because he didn't care to weather the disgusting actions and personal attacks from TSO, and TSO sympathizers. They have been dealt with, but the damage is done:(

Both I and the MCXA hold Logan1 in high esteem and he is always welcome back should he decide to return. I understand you cannot be aware of all the facts shahenshaw, but attacking people when you are so completely ignorant of the situation is not wise.

I must agree with my colleague here. The MCXA does hold Logan1 to the highest esteem. If he wanted to return to the MCXA we would take him without hesitation. Logan1 has not wronged the MCXA in the least.

[KingEd]

At MCXA we rarely issue BB blackouts because we do believe that our members are

more than able to control themselves and remain respectful at all times, even when

their in any type of argument. I will not ask our members to stop posting unless I have

no other choice, but I will stress that all MCXA members remain respectful during the

course of this thread.

PS: I have not read all the contents of this thread, I'm quite busy.

-KingEd