This Week in Pacifica

[Qaianna]

Why is MHA getting so vehemently upset over something that is integrally apart of their national security. I mean, do we really have to wait until the "I told you so" part?

Think part of it is that sometimes discussions don't really go anywhere. Like I said, it looked from the original post that whomever was quoted was going to send it back for further discussion. You know, trying to make sure about something before, say, making even MORE of a treaty web. The whole 'make sure these allies are who we want to be with' that folks keep saying is so vital, isn't it? Or maybe Schattenmann (I spelled it right this time, I think) is really trying to encourage more treaties. It gets hard to tell.

Interestingly, no-one really refuted my earlier point about the New Pacific Order's freedom of speech to say their opinion on things. Wonder why that is.

And as far as controversy ... um, how many pages of this are Vox and their favourite mud targets taking shots at each other? How much is left if you cut that out?

[gfloyd2002]

I personally am willing to do anything in my power to further my own goals.

This is why Vox has not gained the hearts and minds of CN as its wishes. Complete lack of moral character.

Also, it might be worth noting that you won't ulitmately achieve your goals well by using these tactics. It's a fallacy that you can win in the long run without integrity.

[Starfox101]

This is why Vox has not gained the hearts and minds of CN as its wishes. Complete lack of moral character.

Also, it might be worth noting that you won't ulitmately achieve your goals well by using these tactics. It's a fallacy that you can win in the long run without integrity.

Yeah, because the people we are fighting never look out for their own interests, and clearly have a better moral character than us.

Really now...?

[Schattenmann]

This is why Vox has not gained the hearts and minds of CN as its wishes. Complete lack of moral character.

Also, it might be worth noting that you won't ulitmately achieve your goals well by using these tactics. It's a fallacy that you can win in the long run without integrity.

You'll note that Moridin said his "personal goals"

Since its inception, Vox Populi's founders and then chartered government have expelled [OOC]ban evaders and reported them to moderation because we do not condone that; people who have stooped to OOC attacks; [/OOC]people whose ideals do not dovetail with the movement's; unsavory characters. We have refrained from tracking people down across identities (perhaps excepting Mobius1 who made his new identity known to us, not the other way around).

Vox Populi has been clear in its stance that while there is a whole barrel full of monkeys that we could use to advance our goals, there are some that aren't worth it.

[Qaianna]

You'll note that Moridin said his "personal goals"

Since its inception, Vox Populi's founders and then chartered government have expelled [OOC]ban evaders and reported them to moderation because we do not condone that; people who have stooped to OOC attacks; [/OOC]people whose ideals do not dovetail with the movement's; unsavory characters. We have refrained from tracking people down across identities (perhaps excepting Mobius1 who made his new identity known to us, not the other way around).

Vox Populi has been clear in its stance that while there is a whole barrel full of monkeys that we could use to advance our goals, there are some that aren't worth it.

(OOC) Maybe call them necromancers or zombies or something. Except that the Rotting Flesh Front might object, true.(/OOC)

And I think that while Vox Populi keeps stating its stance on what it considers to be unethical, I think more needs to be invested in convincing the world that it really has standards, primarily because the tactics it does use are considered by enough people to be unethical, and it is very easy to consider someone who would stoop to one level willing to stoop to another. Unfortunately, most counterclaims against this are mostly in the form of 'no u'-style posts from Vox Populi. Either that or 'yes u 2', which tends to not be quite as effective as other ways.

I will admit, I have seen a few examples of members declaring their ethical positions and acting on them, but as was mentioned earlier, there is a lot of public perception to shift.

[Starfox101]

(OOC) Maybe call them necromancers or zombies or something. Except that the Rotting Flesh Front might object, true.(/OOC)

And I think that while Vox Populi keeps stating its stance on what it considers to be unethical, I think more needs to be invested in convincing the world that it really has standards, primarily because the tactics it does use are considered by enough people to be unethical, and it is very easy to consider someone who would stoop to one level willing to stoop to another. Unfortunately, most counterclaims against this are mostly in the form of 'no u'-style posts from Vox Populi. Either that or 'yes u 2', which tends to not be quite as effective as other ways.

I will admit, I have seen a few examples of members declaring their ethical positions and acting on them, but as was mentioned earlier, there is a lot of public perception to shift.

We kicked out the former President of, at one point, the strongest alliance in the game, due to OOC attacks, not to mention the numerous ban evaders, and hackers, who have offered help and been banned/denied from Vox.

[Moridin]

This is why Vox has not gained the hearts and minds of CN as its wishes. Complete lack of moral character.

Also, it might be worth noting that you won't ulitmately achieve your goals well by using these tactics. It's a fallacy that you can win in the long run without integrity.

And tell me, what immoral actions am I condoning or performing? So far we've got that I condone spying... anything else that contributes to my "complete lack of moral character"? As I said quite explicitly, there are a very limited number of actions within my power to perform and thus saying "anything within my power" is stating very little. And as Schattenmann said, I am speaking for myself and myself alone. I thought I made a point to talk about my personal goals and my personal actions but somehow you lot couldn't figure out that I wasn't speaking for Vox. Is it truly so hard to actually think about what you're reading instead of seeing I'm in Vox Populi and assuming my words are those of Vox? I know it gives you some precious anti-Vox material but it's really not all that substantial when all it is is an utter failure to comprehend what I'm saying.

OOC: I knew it would come to this when I said what I said, and yet people still do not seem to understand that when I make an IC statement about doing anything within my power to further my own goals it means doing anything in character that I can. I have never once condoned OOC attacks and numerous people who know me from Vox and elsewhere can testify to the fact that I put the principle of the IC/OOC line before just about anything else in this game.

Edited February 11, 2009 by Moridin

[Doitzel]

This is why Vox has not gained the hearts and minds of CN as its wishes. Complete lack of moral character.

You're aware your alliance has an "eternal MADP" with the New Pacific Order and that they have for years done anything and everything regardless of morality to further, first and foremost, their own power?

Are you saying that we would capture your heart and mind as Pacific has if we sat around and took no action because there is no action that a perma-ZI'd nation can take which is considered "moral" in current society, meanwhile they actively keep their heels on our throats and you support them through-and-through??

Edited February 11, 2009 by Doitzel

[Rebel Virginia]

Please for the love of Admin, if you must then let me send some at least semi interesting logs. I think I heard RoK talking about tech deals once and maybe I can get some great logs on Voxs aid programs as well.... oh wait.

I don't see what criticizing Vox's military or financial abilities accomplishes. Granted a few of them, such as Starfox, can cause some trouble for small nations, but I don't think Vox is going for a military victory. They start controversy, with discussions like this. They get people talking. I'm sure you know this by now, but you're not fighting a conventional enemy.

Also, Vox, for an irrelevant alliance your announcements do seem to cause quit the stir. Why do you think that is?

[Doitzel]

Also, Vox, for an irrelevant alliance your announcements do seem to cause quit the stir. Why do you think that is?

Tea is bitter if you do not stir the sugar in.

[Qaianna]

Tea is bitter if you do not stir the sugar in.

The official Illespont Islands caffeinated beverages are provided by Plumbum Beverages. They're OK, but for some reason there's this grey settlement at the bottom of the cup.

In that light, and this time I'm asking seriously, what would happen if Vox Populi made an announcement, and no-one came?

[Earogema]

The official Illespont Islands caffeinated beverages are provided by Plumbum Beverages. They're OK, but for some reason there's this grey settlement at the bottom of the cup.

In that light, and this time I'm asking seriously, what would happen if Vox Populi made an announcement, and no-one came?

That's like asking what happens when you divide by 0.

You can't do it.

[Moridin]

The official Illespont Islands caffeinated beverages are provided by Plumbum Beverages. They're OK, but for some reason there's this grey settlement at the bottom of the cup.

In that light, and this time I'm asking seriously, what would happen if Vox Populi made an announcement, and no-one came?

Impossible!

[Doitzel]

The official Illespont Islands caffeinated beverages are provided by Plumbum Beverages. They're OK, but for some reason there's this grey settlement at the bottom of the cup.

In that light, and this time I'm asking seriously, what would happen if Vox Populi made an announcement, and no-one came?

I'd coup electron sponge. Gets 'em every time.

[Unko Kalaikz]

[Count Andrei da Silva raises his hand in a gesture of peace, touching the face of his silver mask and allows it to slide down it silently. In a quiet yet strong voice, he speaks--]

Some things about Vox Populi are to be admired. You have shown bravery and resolution against overwhelming odds, and have stirred a degree of intellectual debate between many noble leaders and scholars. Your actions on the one hand stir respect in your enemies.

But there are actions you commit that stir only hatred against you and all you stand for. Raids against peaceful, slumbering nations, including my own little fief, has resulted in pointless death and destruction whose seeming purpose is to create strife rather than promote progress. Announcements like these inspire a certain amusement from some but do little for your cause. And you have launched attacks upon the personal character of leaders like myself along with far more important world figures. For all of these things, I forgive you.

We do not combat you out of a sense of anger or injured pride. We fight for a cause, much like you do. This cause is the preservation of our way of life, of civilization itself, on the behalf of our people and the nations we defend. The power structure you so hate is what brings peace and growth to thousands and thousands of nations, potentially even your own should you make the right decisions for your people. By trying to subvert this system you are simply bringing needless suffering upon your own peoples and upon those you wantonly terrorize. And should your goals be realized, this suffering would extend to an unimaginable level.

And all for what? Many of you have made unwise decisions in the past. Perhaps you even are the victims you claim to be. But what is more important, three dozen rogue states or thousands of civilized nations containing uncounted millions of people? Should the silent majority be made to suffer for the real or imagined crimes inflicted upon this vocal, criminal minority?

At the very least, bring honor and courtesy to the table rather than loaded guns... If your cause is to affect change, honest and open intellectual discussion would be more suited to your goals rather than misrepresentative propaganda targeting those you hate. Make your cause greater than your personal vendettas... define your cause and influence intelligentsia and the people alike why your cause is for the greater good, or you will never be anything more than terrorists...

A King may move a man, a father may claim a son, but remember that even when those who move you be Kings, or men of power, your soul is in your keeping alone. When you stand before Admin, you cannot say, "But I was told by others to do thus." Or that, "Virtue was not convenient at the time." This will not suffice. Remember that.

Count Andrei da Silva, reformed man of peace.

Edited February 11, 2009 by Count da Silva

[Mogar]

I'd coup electron sponge. Gets 'em every time.

Coups and attempted coups certainly draw a crowd.

[SilverHawk]

Coups are old hat, GGA been leading the charge!

[The Big Bad]

I don't see what criticizing Vox's military or financial abilities accomplishes. Granted a few of them, such as Starfox, can cause some trouble for small nations, but I don't think Vox is going for a military victory. They start controversy, with discussions like this. They get people talking. I'm sure you know this by now, but you're not fighting a conventional enemy.

Also, Vox, for an irrelevant alliance your announcements do seem to cause quit the stir. Why do you think that is?

Same reason micro alliance drama does, its something that brings everyone together to point and laugh.

[shahenshah]

Gramlins go on alert...is this thread the reason? lulz.

[Nintenderek]

Gramlins go on alert...is this thread the reason? lulz.

I'm not sure, but I think Gramlins are usually on high alert, for a just in case type situation

[Homura]

Same reason micro alliance drama does, its something that brings everyone together to point and laugh.

I'm not exactly Vox's biggest fan, but I know well that this is not the reason most people are acknowledging and responding to this announcement. There's quite a difference between this and whatever alliances like GDI do.

[OverCaffeinated]

<conspiracy>

Even more enlightening is The Phoenix Federation doing the same at the exact same time. We're they perhaps one of the blackened out alliances?

</conspiracy>

Seriously folks, despite everyone's boredom, does anyone really see the top alliances dukeing it out?

Things are a lot different now since the last major war. The wonder combination of Weapon Research Center, Hidden Nuclear Missile Silo, and Manhattan Project is a virtual "I Win" combination that can make any nation with a sufficiently large pool of cash a nuking machine that can never be stopped. Which of these top tier nations is going to want to throw their years of hard work away by attacking a nation that's going to nuke them every day for the rest of their existence?

Add to that the political motivation. NPO is the top alliance and has nothing to gain and everything to lose from a war. IRON is secure in the number two spot and is allied with NPO. Gramlins' top tier nations have practically "won the game" and have time on their side. TOP has everything to gain by staying out of any conflict, and most likely would do to the nature of their friendships and treaties.

Just because a counter block may or may not be forming, doesn't mean there will be war. The last major counter block, the Unjust, was made of a bunch of asshats who bullied and threaten those around them (anyone remember shark week? ). I don't see the next block that rises being anything like that.

This is all just more stirring of the pot by a group of megalomaniacs that hate the existing hegemony because they are not in it. This post, although entertaining, really doesn't give us any new information then what an intelligent person would infer him/her self.

[Archon]

You lost GW1 to him and you know it.

In all fairness, I'm not sure if Doppelganger was the leader of that nation at the time of the First Great War. Admittedly, my memory is a bit hazy, but I do recall it being a surrendered GATO nation and some other business. If properly motivated (which I don't see happening), I might dig through old records.

My point is, of course, that I do believe he's technically correct.

[shahenshah]

<conspiracy>

Even more enlightening is The Phoenix Federation doing the same at the exact same time. We're they perhaps one of the blackened out alliances?

</conspiracy>

Seriously folks, despite everyone's boredom, does anyone really see the top alliances dukeing it out?

Things are a lot different now since the last major war. The wonder combination of Weapon Research Center, Hidden Nuclear Missile Silo, and Manhattan Project is a virtual "I Win" combination that can make any nation with a sufficiently large pool of cash a nuking machine that can never be stopped. Which of these top tier nations is going to want to throw their years of hard work away by attacking a nation that's going to nuke them every day for the rest of their existence?

Add to that the political motivation. NPO is the top alliance and has nothing to gain and everything to lose from a war. IRON is secure in the number two spot and is allied with NPO. Gramlins' top tier nations have practically "won the game" and have time on their side. TOP has everything to gain by staying out of any conflict, and most likely would do to the nature of their friendships and treaties.

Just because a counter block may or may not be forming, doesn't mean there will be war. The last major counter block, the Unjust, was made of a bunch of asshats who bullied and threaten those around them (anyone remember shark week? ). I don't see the next block that rises being anything like that.

This is all just more stirring of the pot by a group of megalomaniacs that hate the existing hegemony because they are not in it. This post, although entertaining, really doesn't give us any new information then what an intelligent person would infer him/her self.

As always, IRON is the source of wisdom, well said OC!

[ChairmanHal]

<conspiracy>

Even more enlightening is The Phoenix Federation doing the same at the exact same time. We're they perhaps one of the blackened out alliances?

</conspiracy>

Seriously folks, despite everyone's boredom, does anyone really see the top alliances dukeing it out?

Honestly? Yes.

OOC: Indeed, there are no doubt hundreds perhaps thousands of people still play the game in anticipation of it.

I also don't see the WRC/HNMS/MP combo as being a deterrent to a major war. Indeed, some alliances may see it as the thing that balances out other factors and puts the scales overall in their favor.

As for "throwing away years of hard work", boredom has caused any number of people on Planet Bob to go rogue, caused alliances to pick fights they would otherwise not, and launched any number a large wars. Years of hard work might help motivate people to stay banded together in alliances, to play the appropriate political games behind the scenes, and create treaties and blocs for their protection. Is it a guarantee of peace? History says very much otherwise.

Indeed an outside observer may ask the following questions:

1. What good is NPO's #1 slot if they don't take steps to keep it?

2. Is IRON afraid of being the #1 alliance? Is always being #2 good enough? Or are there those people there who sit and wonder, "what if we called more of the shots? could we make Planet Bob a better place?"

3. Gramlins is free to build every wonder available, military and otherwise, and indeed occupy most of the top nation slots. To what end? To yell "ta-da" at the end? So what?

Just because a counter block may or may not be forming, doesn't mean there will be war. The last major counter block, the Unjust, was made of a bunch of asshats who bullied and threaten those around them (anyone remember shark week? ). I don't see the next block that rises being anything like that.

You seem to have forgotten BLEU, which was accused of similar abuse of other alliances in its day, fairly or unfairly. No, the next bloc that arises will not be lulzy, will not dance at the manipulations of any single leader. But without question one will arise...some say that Duckroll is the beginnings of that bloc, btw.

This is all just more stirring of the pot by a group of megalomaniacs that hate the existing hegemony because they are not in it. This post, although entertaining, really doesn't give us any new information then what an intelligent person would infer him/her self.

True. However, all fairy tales have at least some kernel of truth in them, even if that truth is merely an object lesson.