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CNRP2 Nuclear Discussion


Zoot Zoot
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DISCLAIMER: I am not writing this as a 50k+ nation who wants to keep his nukes because it gives me an advantage over people, because it doesnt and alot of -50k nations have nukes as well, so keep that in mind, this is simply to get a discussion going about it.

 

I'm just getting the ball rolling on this one simply because of how big the issue is after the responses of several members of the community.

 

So, what should be the rules on nukes?, if any? or should they be banned/capped/reduced Kilotons/Megatons?

 

I propose this:

 

A nuclear state can only have 25 nukes (that is with Manhattan Project and Hidden silo. Without a Weapons Research Complex, the yield size can be no larger than 500 kt's. With a WRC, the yield size can be no larger than 10 megatons. Nukes replenish at a rate of 1 nuke per day without a WRC, and 2 nukes per day with a WRC.

 

In addition to this, I propose that nuclear states cannot launch a nuclear attack on a non nuclear state, or a nuclear capable state, that has not RP'd the development of nuclear weapons/doesn't want nukes.

 

Example

I am a nuclear state IG, but in CNRP2, if I say I have no nukes, I am non-nuclear. Make sense?

 

The only method of circumventing this, would be if a non nuclear state used other weapons of mass destruction against you, such as chemical or biological weapons. This would open the door to a nuclear response.

 

Likewise I also propose that a nation under 20k, should not be allowed to be nuked, unless they follow the example just described.

 

So in Summary

 

-A nation may have up to 25 nukes, (This is conditional on the wonders IG)

-Without a WRC, max yield is 500kt

-With a WRC, max field is 10mt

-Nukes replenish one per day without WRC

-Nukes replenish two per day with WRC

-Nuclear states CANNOT launch nuclear attacks against a non-nuclear state unless attacked with other WMD's

-Nations under 20k CANNOT be attacked with nuclear weapons unless they launch a WMD first strike

 

 

 

As a side note, I must add that I do not believe that abolishing nuclear weapons is feasible because people start getting creative without nukes, so you must be prepared for chemical and biological attacks, which take far longer RPing to clean up.

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DISCLAIMER: I am not writing this as a 50k+ nation who wants to keep his nukes because it gives me an advantage over people, because it doesnt and alot of -50k nations have nukes as well, so keep that in mind, this is simply to get a discussion going about it.

 

I'm just getting the ball rolling on this one simply because of how big the issue is after the responses of several members of the community.

 

So, what should be the rules on nukes?, if any? or should they be banned/capped/reduced Kilotons/Megatons?

 

I propose this:

 

A nuclear state can only have 25 nukes (that is with Manhattan Project and Hidden silo. Without a Weapons Research Complex, the yield size can be no larger than 500 kt's. With a WRC, the yield size can be no larger than 10 megatons. Nukes replenish at a rate of 1 nuke per day without a WRC, and 2 nukes per day with a WRC.

 

In addition to this, I propose that nuclear states cannot launch a nuclear attack on a non nuclear state, or a nuclear capable state, that has not RP'd the development of nuclear weapons/doesn't want nukes.

 

 

This is not realistic at all. In Real life there is a reason you don't piss off a nation with nuclear weaponry. They will destroy you if you invade them and take them over. It can and should be used as a negotiation tactic shall worse come to worse.  Why not propose a rule that if someone nukes and runs off, that it is retconned? Nuclear Weapons are deadly. Theres a reason they were invented.  Theres a reason you don't piss of nations with more soldiers than you and there is a reason you don't piss off nations with much more advanced technology than you.

 

Case in point: Don't piss off a nuclear nation if you can't deal with the consequences.

 

Much of this can be handled ICly, with the exception of someone shooting a nuke and leaving or nuking for trolling purposes. Also we need a clear definition of trolling because if anyone says anything that someone else gets their feelings hurt over, it is being labeled as trolling. That is a discussion for another day though.

 

If a nation launches Nuclear Weaponry and you think it is too soon or they used it when un-necessary, or you have a problem with ANYTHING with a nuclear weaponry launches by someone, than invade them them ICly. These OOC actions for IC Solutions are getting old. 

 

I agree with the limits though. 

 

Also nations who launch nukes and get rolled should have severe consequences in their re-roll. Such as reduction of soldiers or you only get 25 nukes your whole CNRP2 Existence. 

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-SNIP-

 

 

Ok so I knew i overlooked something, yes I fully support that a rogue nuking should be wiped by the GM team if the nuker in question just leaves after firing. Your argument however is flawed in nearly every sense. American hasn't nuked anybody since world war two, and has fought god knows how many wars against nations which 'pissed' it off.

 

As for a nation who launches nukes, they should not be punished, unless of course, they launch nukes and then immediately re-roll after the counter attack, as that could be argued as a rogue attack and should be wiped. As for the player themselves, they should be subject to RPing damages for three months as in CNRP1.

 

@Horo, the nuke limitations are simply to stop somebody of my size, carpet nuking somebody like Dillion1102, who is 6k for no reason. People are assholes man, and because I am an asshole, I know how we think.

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Ok so I knew i overlooked something, yes I fully support that a rogue nuking should be wiped by the GM team if the nuker in question just leaves after firing. Your argument however is flawed in nearly every sense. American hasn't nuked anybody since world war two, and has fought god knows how many wars against nations which 'pissed' it off.

 

As for a nation who launches nukes, they should not be punished, unless of course, they launch nukes and then immediately re-roll after the counter attack, as that could be argued as a rogue attack and should be wiped. As for the player themselves, they should be subject to RPing damages for three months as in CNRP1.

 

@Horo, the nuke limitations are simply to stop somebody of my size, carpet nuking somebody like Dillion1102, who is 6k for no reason. People are my idols man, and because I am an !@#$%^&, I know how we think.

Of course not, because it wasn't necessary. It's not necessary to nuke baghdad simply because we can't find a small group of terrorists there. However if Russia and China invaded and it aggresed quickly enough, nukes may be used.

 

Eva and Mogar did crazy things with nukes. However spoiled apples shouldn't ruin it for everyone. Maybe just a rule that all nuclear launches must be approved by a GM?

 

If you can provide a good scenario for why and how its realistic to use nukes, then yes. However just to say "I want to nuke because I can do more damage" is silly. Nuking as a strategy of war could be plausible, as well as if it is defensively. Also the community should handle ICly to declare on Nuclear Rogue States if they don't agree withe the launching if it's strategic. However they are a great tool for threats. If two nations of the same size are arguing and the non nuclear one threatens an invasion, and the nuclear one threatens it with nukes, it can be a good stalling. That's mainly what I want them for. If I can threaten with a nuke, and they know I can't use it, it's pointless.

Edited by Rotavele
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How about people learn to use nuclear weaponry responsibly? I know they won't, but it would solve the issue altogether.

 

And just saying, the sole issue I got with this, where I knind of agree with Rotavele is that there exists a legitimate reason to nuke a country that hasn't launched any WMDs at you. That's pretty much if you are about to face overwhelming conventional force. Russia for example has an official stance that it will just launch nukes if anyone (most of all NATO) were to invade with full force in an all-out conventional war. That's not about "pissing nuclear nations off", it's that you will have to live with those nations being around, unless you want to trigger a nuclear war. Personally, I made up a nuclear policy of non-first strike, but the major reason I went with that is that I'm confident in my conventional strength to be able to repel most would-be invaders. As is the US, hence it didn't nuke Afghanistan or Iraq off the face of earth.

 

Given this RP has far less strict regulations, you might as well have an enforced rule to have the GMs look into every nuclear strike, to see whether it can be justified reasonably, or whether it's just unresponsible use of overwhelming force.

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How about people learn to use nuclear weaponry responsibly? I know they won't, but it would solve the issue altogether.

 

And just saying, the sole issue I got with this, where I knind of agree with Rotavele is that there exists a legitimate reason to nuke a country that hasn't launched any WMDs at you. That's pretty much if you are about to face overwhelming conventional force. Russia for example has an official stance that it will just launch nukes if anyone (most of all NATO) were to invade with full force in an all-out conventional war. That's not about "pissing nuclear nations off", it's that you will have to live with those nations being around, unless you want to trigger a nuclear war. Personally, I made up a nuclear policy of non-first strike, but the major reason I went with that is that I'm confident in my conventional strength to be able to repel most would-be invaders. As is the US, hence it didn't nuke Afghanistan or Iraq off the face of earth.

 

Given this RP has far less strict regulations, you might as well have an enforced rule to have the GMs look into every nuclear strike, to see whether it can be justified reasonably, or whether it's just unresponsible use of overwhelming force.

 

I bolded the statement I'd love to echo.

 

Also i am glad we agree on something. Our tally is up to 1 now.

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On a fundamental level I disagree with allowing a GM to decide if I fire my nukes or not, for a start it ruins the element of surprise. Gives the other player a chance to contact his/her friends and bribe them with sweet nothings to activate SDI's etc etc.

 

Likewise I disagree with any notion of stripping a nuclear player of his/her nuclear weapons as that is OOCly based decisions being made to affect ICly

 

As for overwhelming force, with the hardcaps in place for the 50k+'s, I doubt that is going to be a factor in any CNRP2 war unless a bigger nation is going to war, and I use him again as an example, Dillon1102.

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On a fundamental level I disagree with allowing a GM to decide if I fire my nukes or not, for a start it ruins the element of surprise. Gives the other player a chance to contact his/her friends and bribe them with sweet nothings to activate SDI's etc etc.

 

Likewise I disagree with any notion of stripping a nuclear player of his/her nuclear weapons as that is OOCly based decisions being made to affect ICly

 

As for overwhelming force, with the hardcaps in place for the 50k+'s, I doubt that is going to be a factor in any CNRP2 war unless a bigger nation is going to war, and I use him again as an example, Dillon1102.

 

Do it via PM/query.

 

Also maybe strip them temporarily?

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On a fundamental level I disagree with allowing a GM to decide if I fire my nukes or not, for a start it ruins the element of surprise. Gives the other player a chance to contact his/her friends and bribe them with sweet nothings to activate SDI's etc etc.

 

Likewise I disagree with any notion of stripping a nuclear player of his/her nuclear weapons as that is OOCly based decisions being made to affect ICly

 

As for overwhelming force, with the hardcaps in place for the 50k+'s, I doubt that is going to be a factor in any CNRP2 war unless a bigger nation is going to war, and I use him again as an example, Dillon1102.

As Rota said, use a PM. It's not that hard, is it? If you need to use IRC, query is also a possibility.

 

I think it is a fair thing to do. Just like you must have been an asshat to get kicked out of the RP, I think it should be possible to take your nukes if you pretty much used them in the most unreasonable manner. Not like your limitations are not an OOC solution to what otherwise be an IC problem. If you don't want to lose them, use them responsibly.

 

Ever heard of coalitions? You should've been in CNRP for long enough to know how it works.

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No because thats even worse, and its still OOCly based decsion making for a players ICly actions.

 

Edit, just seen Evas reply.

 

I know how it works, but going back to a GM decision on if I can fire my nukes or not, I don't agree with it at all.

Edited by Zoot Zoot
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No because thats even worse, and its still OOCly based decsion making for a players ICly actions.

 

Edit, just seen Evas reply.

 

I know how it works, but going back to a GM decision on if I can fire my nukes or not, I don't agree with it at all.

What's the issue? You think the GMs can't judge whether your actions are a justified nuclear escalation or not? I think that if due reason exists, they won't stop your actions.

 

Honestly, your own attempt to solve the matter is pretty much "as long as both nations are nuclear and have over 20k NS, all sorts of nukings, even for no reason at all, are permissible." I don't see that as a solution. If you apply this to the current East Asian issue, it'd be fully legitimate, apart from jesbro getting nuked. And I think most of us can agree that the step up in escalation was hardly reasonable.

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No restrictions. No requests required. Anyone and everyone can be nuked. That is my point of view and I am sticking with it. The only thing I would agree to is that if a nation does decide to re roll or quit any last shot nukes they fire are disqualified and erased. 

 

I like this and would support it. No need to add in more rules. The Community RP rule set is getting more cluttered with every new rule addition, we need to start asking ourselves just how necessary these rules really are. While some are needed, others aren't so important. 

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No restrictions. No requests required. Anyone and everyone can be nuked. That is my point of view and I am sticking with it. The only thing I would agree to is that if a nation does decide to re roll or quit any last shot nukes they fire are disqualified and erased. 

I agree with Kevz on this one. If you do something dumb, you do something dumb. Suck it up and take the hit, and recognize that actions have consequences.

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Can we have a restriction that you can only defensively nuke a nation that has no nukes? Unless both players agree to it for the purpose of an RP of course.

 

Other than that I don't think there should be any restrictions other than the guidelines as to how many nukes you have compared to your IG stats.

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I like this and would support it. No need to add in more rules. The Community RP rule set is getting more cluttered with every new rule addition, we need to start asking ourselves just how necessary these rules really are. While some are needed, others aren't so important. 

 

 

I agree with Kevz on this one. If you do something dumb, you do something dumb. Suck it up and take the hit, and recognize that actions have consequences.

 

Gee I wonder who said that at the beginning of this thread in the second post.

 

Does Hereno or Kevz have anymore suggestions for us?

Edited by Rotavele
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None from me. As long as we ensure that people nuking out of pure spite and for OOC purposes are stopped then I feel everything if fine. If and I do mean if I was going to make another suggestion I would think of limiting the amount of nukes fired at once. Say maybe down to ten or down to five even so that people would have to think about what targets they would want to prioritize rather than just carpet nuking. However, I don't think that CNRP 2 needs this at the moment just that it may be something to think about in the future.

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None from me. As long as we ensure that people nuking out of pure spite and for OOC purposes are stopped then I feel everything if fine. If and I do mean if I was going to make another suggestion I would think of limiting the amount of nukes fired at once. Say maybe down to ten or down to five even so that people would have to think about what targets they would want to prioritize rather than just carpet nuking. However, I don't think that CNRP 2 needs this at the moment just that it may be something to think about in the future.

Yeah, I feel like we need a "don't be a bellend" clause.
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I know how it works, but going back to a GM decision on if I can fire my nukes or not, I don't agree with it at all.

 

And I'd just say no every single time. I really don't think you all would want this as an option. 

 

But if people are dumb enough to insist, by all means then.

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Nukes should be fired from silos with a max yield based on tech somehow.

ie. up to 5k tech (5 MTs) and then we just cap them there to keep them reasonable.

The nuclear subs thing is incredibly dumb, and now everybody is just going to make the generic poorly-planned-and-researched "yeah I'm doing ASW around my nation" post. Just get rid of the damn things and use silos that would restrict us to our own neighborhoods where people will fight back anyway.

Edited by Hereno
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Silo based missiles can hit most places on earth. SSBN's exist IRL and should exist in CNRP2, HOWEVER, with the naval rules in place, it makes it a hard decision to make for nations to maintain credible navies and submarine forces, whilst essentially wasting a submarine slot on an SSBN which is never going make an appearence in RP until it fires its load.

 

ASW around a nation makes zero difference as SSBN defence as most boomers carry missiles with ranges between 4500 miles and 7000 miles.

 

I can however, get behind the MT limit based on tech and 5MT sounds reasonable.

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