Quality vs. Quantity

[Feanor Noldorin]

The TOP-Argent relationship changed the moment Janax and Rustynail faded from this world. With new leadership they turned away from TOP-Umbrella and went their own way. In my eyes, it's as simple as that. They were well within their right to do that. Im not suggesting otherwise.

 

I would also note that we offered a downgrade to TOP, before they cancelled on us, and that the cancellation with Umbrella was mutual. So if anything our DH sphere allies accelerated our move to DR as the loss of both treaties made our situation all the more pressing and the natural path all the more obvious.

We decided to outright cancel rather than downgrade because the treaty would have been useless for this war and the forseeable future. I can't speak for the rest of my Order but I had no idea you would actually declare war on us, if that was the case we should have kept it for NAP purposes. I don't like fighting the alliance that I associate with Janax, Rusty and Dio but I guess you felt like you had to do what you had to do.

 

Explanations aside, honestly what do you think we could have done other than strengthen our ties to DR, after our flagship treaty, pf, collapsed, and our two ties to the DH sphere dropped us? As I said the last time you brought this up (albeit first time), you may be a smart thoughtful guy who has been around the block, but you're out of your depth where it concerns PF, Argent, and its relationships- I of course don't blame you for this, but you are really just in no position to offer meaningful interpretation or commentary.

Your strengthened ties to DR happened well before you lost your ties to the DH sphere. No one pushed you into anything. You choose to increase your influence there and once you were solidly in their corner did you decided to let go of TOP and Umbrella.

Edited February 25, 2013 by Feanor Noldorin

[Caliph]

Hehe well fair enough, perhaps you have only mentioned it two times in your life- though you have to admit it was a reasonable conclusion to jump to considering this, the second time, was a completely tangential swipe. 

 

Regardless, while I see how the structure of your analogy fits together, it does distort the reality in significant ways; and while I also recognize that you may be more interested in revising history than you are in discussing it- I am willing to talk about it sincerely nonetheless. Most critically I think you just fundamentally misunderstand the nature of our motives. We hardly moved over to DR and away from DH to be on the winning side, and I would add that this is a silly interpretation of events given that the incentives necessary for that sort of decision calculus to exist aren't even present in today's world.

 

First incentives are lacking because Argent is pretty flush with cash, this being beyond the fact that stats are just a completely irrelevant consideration to us. Secondly, just as prior years have seen the disappearance of harsh terms (considering now it is people whining about beer reviews rather than complaining about their viceroys or losing their SDIs), we now might as well now be occupying the post surrender era of bob. Winning and losing a war honestly means very little today, and now more than ever what it means to actually be victorious is completely ambiguous (the purpose of my original post in this thread). If your opponents surrender to you and yet they have more tech, larger war-chests, and a more cohesive and durable coalition what does this really say about your 'victory'? If wars are really nothing more than periodic crashes followed by slow growth and new highs and there are no material consequences on the strategic side of things, what is truly gained or lost at all? The obvious answer is nothing, war today is little more than a networking opportunity coupled with some interesting data analytics problems and 'fun' tactical play. So no, not only did stats not motivate our decision, even more sensible things like strategic objectives (which I contend are illusory in today's world) failed to drive our move. Instead I would submit the current government of Argent was simply more familiar with DR than we were TOP or Umbrella. Thus when we had to choose a side, distancing from IRON was seen as undesirable and impossible whereas detaching from TOP and Umbrella seemed to be unavoidable.

 

I would also note that we offered a downgrade to TOP, before they cancelled on us, and that the cancellation with Umbrella was mutual. So if anything our DH sphere allies accelerated our move to DR as the loss of both treaties made our situation all the more pressing and the natural path all the more obvious.

 

Explanations aside, honestly what do you think we could have done other than strengthen our ties to DR, after our flagship treaty, pf, collapsed, and our two ties to the DH sphere dropped us? As I said the last time you brought this up (albeit first time), you may be a smart thoughtful guy who has been around the block, but you're out of your depth where it concerns PF, Argent, and its relationships- I of course don't blame you for this, but you are really just in no position to offer meaningful interpretation or commentary.

 

You made your choice about who you were going to fight with prior to the necessary treaties being dropped however.  If you didn't know TOP and Umbrella well enough, why were there MDoAP's in existence with them? 

[Max Power]

^Those MDoAPs were signed by janax and Rusty years ago. Regardless of my view on them (which was pro), they were definitely associated more with the old regime than the new one.

 

Agreed with Feanor that a TOP/Argent NAP would have been nice, too bad they didn't think of that or decided against it.

Edited February 25, 2013 by Max Power

[iamthey]

The TOP-Argent relationship changed the moment Janax and Rustynail faded from this world. With new leadership they turned away from TOP-Umbrella and went their own way. In my eyes, it's as simple as that. They were well within their right to do that. Im not suggesting otherwise.

 

We decided to outright cancel rather than downgrade because the treaty would have been useless for this war and the forseeable future. I can't speak for the rest of my Order but I had no idea you would actually declare war on us, if that was the case we should have kept it for NAP purposes. I don't like fighting the alliance that I associate with Janax, Rusty and Dio but I guess you felt like you had to do what you had to do

 

Yes I would generally agree that things did change once Rusty and Janax left us, though to be fair changes in leadership composition have occurred on both sides. That being said I think you frame it too much as being something deliberate and conscious, when it was really just entropy at work. People didn't talk to each other, add on top of that we both had pretty different foreign affairs objectives it is pretty easy to see why things ended up the way they did. As for fighting you, given the scarcity of top tier nations and our similar builds I think it was fairly inevitable that if there were to be a war we would probably end up engaging one another. We went where we were needed, it's really as simple as that. :/

 

Your strengthened ties to DR happened well before you lost your ties to the DH sphere. No one pushed you into anything. You choose to increase your influence there and once you were solidly in their corner did you decided to let go of TOP and Umbrella.

 

 

Unless you are referring to the relationship with IRON, which was was fostered by Janax and Rusty themselves- the treaty with Ai and the cancellations were easily within a few weeks of each other. I'm not suggesting we were pushed to do anything, I am saying TOP was the one who decided it was unacceptable for us to tie ourselves further to DR, and that we could have conceivably never had joined DR had you all chosen to maintain our connection. Though I don't blame you for rejecting a downgrade, I would have cancelled if I were in your position as well. Once those treaties were terminated though joining DR seemed to be the proper course of action. 

 

You made your choice about who you were going to fight with prior to the necessary treaties being dropped however.  If you didn't know TOP and Umbrella well enough, why were there MDoAP's in existence with them? 

 

The treaties with TOP and Umbrella date back to our time in citadel. While earlier governments had fairy strong ties to both alliances, as people retired and left those older relationships withered. 

Edited February 25, 2013 by iamthey

[Caliph]

Yes I would generally agree that things did change once Rusty and Janax left us, though to be fair changes in leadership composition have occurred on both sides. That being said I think you frame it too much as being something deliberate and conscious, when it was really just entropy at work. People didn't talk to each other, add on top of that we both had pretty different foreign affairs objectives it is pretty easy to see why things ended up the way they did. As for fighting you, given the scarcity of top tier nations and our similar builds I think it was fairly inevitable that if there were to be a war we would probably end up engaging one another. We went where we were needed, it's really as simple as that. :/

 

 

 

Unless you are referring to the relationship with IRON, which was was fostered by Janax and Rusty themselves- the treaty with Ai and the cancellations were easily within a few weeks of each other. I'm not suggesting we were pushed to do anything, I am saying TOP was the one who decided it was unacceptable for us to tie ourselves further to DR, and that we could have conceivably never had joined DR had you all chosen to maintain our connection. Though I don't blame you for rejecting a downgrade, I would have cancelled if I were in your position as well. Once those treaties were terminated though joining DR seemed to be the proper course of action. 

 

 

The treaties with TOP and Umbrella date back to our time in citadel. While earlier governments had fairy strong ties to both alliances, as people retired and left those older relationships withered. 

 

The fact remains though that you made your choice of who to fight for in this war prior to the TOP and Umb treaties being terminated.

[iamthey]

The fact remains though that you made your choice of who to fight for in this war prior to the TOP and Umb treaties being terminated.

 

Well, of course but isn't that the point- our decision to downgrade on TOP and cancel with umbrella (following the collapse of PF) was motivated by a desire to clean up our FA of conflicting associations and make our affiliation in the coming war unambiguous. We saw this as being the fairest and most transparent way of handling both UMB and TOP given that supporting one another in any meaningful way was out of the question (TOP/UMB wouldn't have backed DR against DH and we wouldn't have backed DH against DR - neither of those outcomes were acceptable to either of us). While we(argent) could have maintained MDoAP's and left everyone guessing- I find this sort of behavior on the part of allies to be tasteless. So I hope you understand, I'm not at all asserting we acted naively, only that a move in either direction was necessary and that DR having won out, we felt some sort of termination or formal revision of our relationship was in order.

Edited February 25, 2013 by iamthey

[Caliph]

Well, of course but isn't that the point- our decision to downgrade on TOP and cancel with umbrella (following the collapse of PF) was motivated by a desire to clean up our FA of conflicting associations and make our affiliation in the coming war unambiguous. We saw this as being the fairest and most transparent way of handling both UMB and TOP given that supporting one another in any meaningful way was out of the question (TOP/UMB wouldn't have backed DR against DH and we wouldn't have backed DH against DR - neither of those outcomes were acceptable to either of us). While we(argent) could have maintained MDoAP's and left everyone guessing- I find this sort of behavior on the part of allies to be tasteless. So I hope you understand, I'm not at all asserting we acted naively, only that a move in either direction was necessary and that DR having won out, we felt some sort of termination or formal revision of our relationship was in order.

 

While we had desired to have you on our side for this conflict, it is appreciated that the treaty conflicts were handled prior to war, and that you didn't just ignore them when the time came for war.  Other alliances in the past had chosen the "ignore treaties with other side until after war" approach, and I have always disliked that approach.

 

So kudos for cleaning up your treaties in advance and letting everyone know where you stood so it didn't come as a suprise. 

[Feanor Noldorin]

Yes I would generally agree that things did change once Rusty and Janax left us, though to be fair changes in leadership composition have occurred on both sides. That being said I think you frame it too much as being something deliberate and conscious, when it was really just entropy at work. People didn't talk to each other, add on top of that we both had pretty different foreign affairs objectives it is pretty easy to see why things ended up the way they did. As for fighting you, given the scarcity of top tier nations and our similar builds I think it was fairly inevitable that if there were to be a war we would probably end up engaging one another. We went where we were needed, it's really as simple as that. :/

I'm not objecting to the first part, when the old leadership left a new group came in and a different foreign affairs objective was created. There were two sides to this upcoming conflict and we each choose different parts of the playground to play on, no harm no foul. As far as the fighting goes, I can only speak for myself but I'm a sucker for history. We have an extensive history with one another and to have it end (on a good note, imho) and suddenly turn into war where we will burn each other down is something that I am not comfortable with. There were plenty of targets to choose from but we were chosen. I'm sure yall did what you thought was best, no hard feelings. Perhaps some of us are abit to sentimental to certain alliances. I've no doubt this goes all the way back to my part in helping create the Citadel.

 

Unless you are referring to the relationship with IRON, which was was fostered by Janax and Rusty themselves- the treaty with Ai and the
cancellations were easily within a few weeks of each other. I'm not suggesting we were pushed to do anything, I am saying TOP was the one who decided it was unacceptable for us to tie ourselves further to DR, and that we could have conceivably never had joined DR had you all
chosen to maintain our connection. Though I don't blame you for rejecting a downgrade, I would have cancelled if I were in your position as well. Once those treaties were terminated though joining DR seemed to be the proper course of action. 

The treaty with TIO and UE along with what was being discussed in other venues indicated Argent's desire to head that direction. That was clear as day. Correct me if I am wrong but you would have signed a treaty with AI as well if we hadn't objected to it. So the desire and direction was there long before ties with TOP/Umb were cut. Joining DR was a mere formality in terms of your position for this war. I don't believe an ODP with us would have changed anything sans perhaps fighting each other directly.

Edited February 26, 2013 by Feanor Noldorin

[iamthey]

I'm not objecting to the first part, when the old leadership left a new group came in and a different foreign affairs objective was created. There were two sides to this upcoming conflict and we each choose different parts of the playground to play on, no harm no foul. As far as the fighting goes, I can only speak for myself but I'm a sucker for history. We have an extensive history with one another and to have it end (on a good note, imho) and suddenly turn into war where we will burn each other down is something that I am not comfortable with. There were plenty of targets to choose from but we were chosen. I'm sure yall did what you thought was best, no hard feelings. Perhaps some of us are abit to sentimental to certain alliances. I've no doubt this goes all the way back to my part in helping create the Citadel.

 

Yes I understand where you are coming from. I think I would have felt the same a year ago, though I honestly just don't really see war as being that serious at this point. I've fought a few friends during this war (and even someone in my trade circle) and we had a pretty good time. I don't know- war is just way better when you're [ooc]sitting in a skype call[/ooc] with someone and get to hear their reaction after you've conducted a coordinated quad- or nuked and attacked them when they get up to use the [ooc]bathroom[/ooc]. :P

The treaty with TIO and UE along with what was being discussed in other venues indicated Argent's desire to head that direction. That was clear as day. Correct me if I am wrong but you would have signed a treaty with AI as well if we hadn't objected to it. So the desire and direction was there long before ties with TOP/Umb were cut. Joining DR was a mere formality in terms of your position for this war. I don't believe an ODP with us would have changed anything sans perhaps fighting each other directly.

 

 

Well if PF had stayed together and the cohesion had been there for us to collectively play the middle I personally would have been more than satisfied with that outcome. That being said you are right we clearly were developing our ties to DR (I actually hadn't thought about TIO and UE until you mentioned it there), and while sacrificing DR to PF would have been acceptable had there been a consensus to be an independent entity from either side that just wasn't there. Fair enough though.

Edited February 26, 2013 by iamthey

[Gingervites]

I can promise you that there is no ill-will towards TOP from Argent(or Sengoku for that matter; we are mostly ex omfg and BN if you didn't know) when the declaration was posted. When I/we at Sengoku were first creating the front, I was going around and gathering alliances to get them ready for a TOP counter. The first alliance I contacted was Argent because we have an MDoAP with them and they are the alliance we were most familiar with. So they didn't declare on you because of disdain or ill will but because we were too stubborn to let another front have them because Argent has a similar build to TOP and would be effective in combat. 

 

To be quite honest our respect for TOP has gone up because of this war, you guys are a competent bunch and to state it simply fun to fight as well. It was just a series of events that just happened to land them fighting against TOP. Argent was and is not trying to pull an echelon, FA paths diverged and this is the end result. When Janax left, Argent underwent a large swing in FA direction with Yosh and Foxchild's governments. The signings with TIO/UE and then Ai/DR was a clear indicator of that and this really isn't that surprising of a situation looking at Argent's treaties and the direction they have been going for the past year. 

 

No trying to switch to the winning side, which at this point is pretty ambiguous. Yosh and Foxchild had more connections and felt more comfortable with DR's side. We have full respect for you guys and if anything this war will add to it. For whatever reason it usually isn't TOP nations that bring this up too, but I guess people can be bored at times. 

 

[socrates]

Let's get back on topic, this tangent clearly has nothing to do with the OP. Consider yourselves verbally warned.

[Dcrews]

 

I believe iamthey made a pretty good explanation of Ag's motives, so i won't speculate on that. Most people interpret events through their political lens, I'll say that will have more of an impact on history than any tertiary alliance.

Edit- Back on topic, Quality or quality? That is the question. How about execution, that will determine the winner. Edited February 26, 2013 by Dcrews

[hormones74]

I believe iamthey made a pretty good explanation of Ag's motives, so i won't speculate on that. Most people interpret events through their political lens, I'll say that will have more of an impact on history than any tertiary alliance.

Edit- Back on topic, Quality or quality? That is the question. How about execution, that will determine the winner.

Execution = Coordination. We are clearing winning in your eyes, right?

[Dcrews]

In my eyes "clearly" is one of the most ill equipped words to describe the current conflict.

[Lord Valleo]

We are all smarter than that, Kaskus never surrenders

Never is a mighty long time ;)

 

I'll love when you all realize just how much NS we aren't really losing. It'll be fun.

Just to clarify, to be able to rebuild and regain NS doesnt mean NS isnt being lost :/

 

There are people of all sorts of capability and all levels of commitment on both sides of this war. This notion that one side holds all the pro nations while the other is noob central is delusional. The concept that everyone is fighting as hard as they can on either side is also completely fictional, just as it is unjustifiable to suggest that one side holds all the cash reserves. There are trends but they are not absolutes. Personal anecdotes are exactly that and largely irrelevant. Still very early days yet.

Never thought I'd see the day where I agreed with AlmightyGrub.

Lol, I agree never thought I would see the day I would agree with Grub. As I stated previously never is a long time :)

 

Why are you people so hateful? I'm actually happy with my allies and our FA path. If I wasn't then we wouldn't be here today.
This will be the first time in almost 6 years of CN that I will have been taken to zi. It's a very new experience for me.
Its just disappointing that its coming from the likes of the alliances I never had respect for. And most of this is due to their war ability, which they lack.

6 years and first time ZI'd? This is not a badge of honor, this is shameful. It only proves you are either a coward and only fight weaker targets and participate in battles where victory is guaranteed or you are simply a mouthpiece from the sidelines. In either case silence is golden, take your ZI and just hope your lack of quality or quantity is slightly increased with your first true  combat experience where your nation is sacrificing for your alliance and allies.

 

I believe your side will want peace before my side does. I'm also willing to bet you guys will have alliances dropping out before we do.
I just realized something, my bills are extremely inexpensive now. I can fight for a very long time and eventually your "friends" will realize the are just your meatshields and become demoralized because of their sudden realization.

Believe all you want, it doesn't mean it is or will become true. Now I am pretty verbose at times...but yeah a lil early to bet about which side will have alliances dropping out, wanting peace etc, but good luck with that.

 

"meatshields" is soooooooooo out dated :smug:

 

In the whole history of the world, it's never ever happened that a rag-tag group has faced what is supposed to be an unbeatable foe. . .and has done just that.  No, I'm not in the camp that believes the war is won.  But I'm firmly in the camp of those who believes absolutely it can be done.  Posturing and whining doesn't win the war.  Hold off on both and just keep fighting.  That's what we're here for.

Very well stated o/

 

Edit: removed definition from Websters.com, seemed too petty after reading O.o

Edited February 26, 2013 by Lord Valleo

[hormones74]

6 years and first time ZI'd? This is not a badge of honor, this is shameful. It only proves you are either a coward and only fight weaker targets and participate in battles where victory is guaranteed or you are simply a mouthpiece from the sidelines. In either case silence is golden, take your ZI and just hope your lack of quality or quantity is slightly increased with your first true combat experience where your nation is sacrificing for your alliance and allies.

Dude, you're crazy. I have never ran from a fight. Its true I have been on the winning side for a very long time, thats due to never switching sides. Anything else? Ask anyone I ever fought if I look for easy ways out.

[Prozenz]

Dude, you're crazy. I have never ran from a fight. Its true I have been on the winning side for a very long time, thats due to never switching sides. Anything else? Ask anyone I ever fought if I look for easy ways out.

 

Heh, I remember you, Mr. 50 Cruise Missiles.  :awesome:

[Ogaden]

Heh, I remember you, Mr. 50 Cruise Missiles.  :awesome:

 

Only 50?  :v

[hormones74]

I used to keep them for NS purposes, but I've learned the error in doing so.

[Prozenz]

I used to keep them for NS purposes, but I've learned the error in doing so.

so, will you learn from this war too?  :ehm:

[hormones74]

I will only teach this war, just ask the guys I've fought.

[IYIyTh]

The TOP-Argent relationship changed the moment Janax and Rustynail faded from this world. With new leadership they turned away from TOP-Umbrella and went their own way. In my eyes, it's as simple as that. They were well within their right to do that. Im not suggesting otherwise.

 

 

To be fair that was beginning to change even while they were on their way out.

[Vol Navy]

I will only teach this war, just ask the guys I've fought.

 

I wish you'd managed to GA today. Richard didn't either and it caused me not to get the most casualties in TPF this week.

[hormones74]

Yeah, about that. I got my first defeat alert since this war kicked off. I deployed and you and erik hit me while I was CMing you 2.

[Master Hakai]

just realized this thread I've been ignoring is probably the best thing going on in this war. sweet work everybody keep doin this stuff!