Never bring an Umbrella to a gun fight

[Lord Valleo]

[quote name='Caliph' timestamp='1358627582' post='3080190']
To be fair, you also wanted war or else you wouldn't have declared war. Take ownership of your own feelings and thoughts, you wanted war as well because after all it was you who declared war on them, not the other way around.
<snip>
[/quote]Totally take ownership for such, I don't think you will see it has been stated otherwise by anyone.

[Tiggah]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1358627646' post='3080191']


Puppets has admitted that filling his defensive war slots the first time to get into peace mode and restock to 25 nuclear weapons was umbrellas plan. Every one of the 25 nukes he bought in peace mode then sent to Ai was Umbrellas plan. Ai was 100% entitled to attack Umbrella once the first nuke hit, but before that they filled his defensive slots again to continue the process. Any talk of this being the end of his rogue ways is just a reaction to the DoW
[/quote]

All I'm saying is this is about more than just limiting AI's ability to declare on Puppets themselves.

OOC EDIT: Post was in process before warn came down. Edited for compliance.

Edited January 19, 2013 by Tiggah

[Coyoteknifefight]

Id like to know exactly how much diplomacy took place before this DOW

[youwish959]

[quote name='Coyoteknifefight' timestamp='1358628353' post='3080200']
Id like to know exactly how much diplomacy took place before this DOW
[/quote]
Enough.

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='Coyoteknifefight' timestamp='1358628353' post='3080200']
Id like to know exactly how much diplomacy took place before this DOW
[/quote]
This man knows how to properly question the validity of a given CB.

[Cataduanes]

[quote name='youwish959' timestamp='1358627886' post='3080192']
I stopped reading after ODN.
[/quote]
That very illuminating to know, thanks.

[Rush Sykes]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1358594978' post='3079834']
He admits it was 100% planned to fill his defensive slots within seconds to minutes of coming out of peace

[url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=114834&st=660#entry3079799"]http://forums.cybern...60#entry3079799[/url]

He admits to being smuggled back into peace mode to rebuy nukes at least once. In reality it happeded twice

[url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=114834&st=680#entry3079822"]http://forums.cybern...80#entry3079822[/url]
[/quote]

You would do well to stop using the "he admits to being smuggled back to peace mode to rebuy nukes at least once.".... in that 1st incident, there was an MK nation... someone sittiong on the FoK AA.... and someone in Dark Templar. Now, if you want to use that 1st incident in conjunction with hitting Umbrella in THIS incident, I suppose I should wait for the DoW on MK, FOK and Dark Templar. Stick to what works Alterego.

[youwish959]

[quote name='Cataduanes' timestamp='1358628470' post='3080204']
That very illuminating to know, thanks.
[/quote]
I liked it better when you weren't active.

Edited January 19, 2013 by youwish959

[Rush Sykes]

[quote name='Rampage3' timestamp='1358605552' post='3079908']
This could not be more mistaken. The acts of Umbrella are clearly acts of war and Ai's allies are clearly defending them. Your tight spot is a personal problem that you can lay at the feet of Umbrella for placing you in or your own FA for not being more clear in terms of direction. Unless you are implying that Brehon should fail to honor his obligations to his treaty partner. Something that you KNEW from past conflicts he would not do.

NPO is defending Ai.
[/quote]

Lets be perfectly clear.... I have no problem with this CB... with this war.. if I were AI, id have done EXACTLY the same thing. But, my friend, when you went a round of wars as AI did , without DoWing MK... or hitting the lone guy on FOK... or DoWing Dark Templar for doing EXACTLY this same thing.... you cannot run in on the moral high ground and claim outrage. I maintained from day 1.... and Brehon and a few others can attest to this... after the 1st rounds incident, AI should have announced that they considered his slots their slots. However, when you ignore something one week, then act on it a 2nd week, when a completely different party is the violator, it does NOT give you a moral high ground, it gives you what everyone knew everyone was waiting on.. something that would fly with their allies. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Hereno]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1358629111' post='3080215']
Lets be perfectly clear.... I have no problem with this CB... with this war.. if I were AI, id have done EXACTLY the same thing. But, my friend, when you went a round of wars as AI did , without DoWing MK... or hitting the lone guy on FOK... or DoWing Dark Templar for doing EXACTLY this same thing.... you cannot run in on the moral high ground and claim outrage. I maintained from day 1.... and Brehon and a few others can attest to this... after the 1st rounds incident, AI should have announced that they considered his slots their slots. However, when you ignore something one week, then act on it a 2nd week, when a completely different party is the violator, it does NOT give you a moral high ground, it gives you what everyone knew everyone was waiting on.. something that would fly with their allies. Nothing more, nothing less.
[/quote]

Assuming everything you posted here is correct...

They can, and they did. They have what most people here consider a valid CB and they decided to act on it. Not every CB has to be acted on; that's irrelevant nonsense.

[Jake Liebenow]

[quote name='Blake Griffinin' timestamp='1358628072' post='3080193']
War slot filling is a moderation issue and should be reported [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showforum=21"]here[/url] if suspected.

This is your reminder. Any further discussion here regarding war slot filling will be rewarded with a warn.
[/quote]

Mr. Mod, the issue in question isn't whether or not the individual hit had his slots "filled", but rather the ownership of the slots in question - who had the right to hit him, and who didn't. No side here wanted to just prevent the individual from being hit by declaring wars and sitting on it. Both sides wanted to inflict a lot of damage. This is what they meant by slot filling - not the actual definition put forward by Admin.

It was poor phraseology, and on behalf of everyone in this topic, we apologize.

Edited January 19, 2013 by Jake Liebenow

[Lord Valleo]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1358629111' post='3080215']
Lets be perfectly clear.... I have no problem with this CB... with this war.. if I were AI, id have done EXACTLY the same thing. But, my friend, when you went a round of wars as AI did , without DoWing MK... or hitting the lone guy on FOK... or DoWing Dark Templar for doing EXACTLY this same thing.... you cannot run in on the moral high ground and claim outrage. I maintained from day 1.... and Brehon and a few others can attest to this... after the 1st rounds incident, AI should have announced that they considered his slots their slots. However, when you ignore something one week, then act on it a 2nd week, when a completely different party is the violator, it does NOT give you a moral high ground, it gives you what everyone knew everyone was waiting on.. something that would fly with their allies. Nothing more, nothing less.
[/quote]Or perhaps when the first incident happened, AI didnt over react and perhaps didnt jump to the conclusion UMB was doing this intentionally to bring harm to AI. However the second incident in about a weeks time is definitely a finger in the face of AI. Hence the "moral outrage" and DoW.

[pezstar]

Might I propose a new term, to prevent confusion? Slot theft, perhaps?

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='Lord Valleo' timestamp='1358629604' post='3080220']
Or perhaps when the first incident happened, AI didnt over react and perhaps didnt jump to the conclusion UMB was doing this intentionally to bring harm to AI. However the second incident in about a weeks time is definitely a finger in the face of AI. Hence the "moral outrage" and DoW.
[/quote]
You could put to rest all your detractors by simply putting up.some solid evidence you tried to work this out with Umb.
Hammer that coffin closed if you can.

[Rush Sykes]

[quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1358629365' post='3080217']
Assuming everything you posted here is correct...

They can, and they did. They have what most people here consider a valid CB and they decided to act on it. Not every CB has to be acted on; that's irrelevant nonsense.
[/quote]

Of course they can and they did, but they cannot claim some sort of moral outrage at what Umb did. Umb doing what it did was stupid. AI not making a clear statement about Puppets after it was done the 1st time (by 0 Umbrella nations) was, also, a mistake. I have been perfectly clear.... considering the state of CN politics... if I were AI, I would have moved on Umb too.... and to their credit they did. But let us not pretend like this isnt something other than a CB of convenience, and not something that AI felt legitimately wronged by. Its a culmination of months of prodding.

[Rush Sykes]

[quote name='Lord Valleo' timestamp='1358629604' post='3080220']
Or perhaps when the first incident happened, AI didnt over react and perhaps didnt jump to the conclusion UMB was doing this intentionally to bring harm to AI. However the second incident in about a weeks time is definitely a finger in the face of AI. Hence the "moral outrage" and DoW.
[/quote]

That would be a great summary my friend.. if even one Umb nation was involved in the 1st incident, which went totally ignored. Let me reiterate... this is the 2nd time Puppets slots were filled...0 Umb nations filled it the 1st time... yet no DoW on Mk... no DoW on the 1 guy on the FOK AA (not even a counter).... no DoW on Dark Templar. Come on man.. call a spade a spade.. this was convenient and would fly with allies.. so it worked... it wasnt something that particularly aggrieved AI. And.. it was completely idiotic of Umb to do without taking the 2 weeks Puppets was in PM to talk to AI.

Edited January 19, 2013 by Rush Sykes

[xR1 Fatal Instinct]

From what I'm getting with this blood in blood out thing, Umbrella and Mo9P are able to "scratch each others backs." Umbrella gets to fulfill their bibo agreement with Mo9P and Mo9P gets to escape to peace mode to rebuy and rebuild.

Jake, you recalled that by signing bibo you are going to receive 6 nukes and then you're done (I don't know how bibo works--so I don't know if that's the entire system)? Yes, Mo9P takes the nukes, but is it really going to do [i]that[/i] damage that he can't just rebuy in peace mode? Having his slots taken (ruining the stagger) by Umbrella members guarantees that peace mode time. That way he can rebuild, rebuy and continue damaging AI members.

[Cataduanes]

[quote name='youwish959' timestamp='1358628666' post='3080210']
I liked it better when you weren't active.
[/quote]
Awww I love you too sweetheart

[img]http://25.media.tumblr.com/1b21c26b11bc2ff73b6ef7d9daf099b5/tumblr_mfwdqcYOLr1r94e9jo1_500.gif[/img]

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1358630063' post='3080223']


Of course they can and they did, but they cannot claim some sort of moral outrage at what Umb did. Umb doing what it did was stupid. AI not making a clear statement about Puppets after it was done the 1st time (by 0 Umbrella nations) was, also, a mistake. I have been perfectly clear.... considering the state of CN politics... if I were AI, I would have moved on Umb too.... and to their credit they did. But let us not pretend like this isnt something other than a CB of convenience, and not something that AI felt legitimately wronged by. Its a culmination of months of prodding.
[/quote]
Your absolutely correct, but what fun is there in truth?

[King Wally]

[quote name='Coyoteknifefight' timestamp='1358628353' post='3080200']
Id like to know exactly how much diplomacy took place before this DOW
[/quote]

More then doomhouse has ever afforded anyone in the last few years

EVERYTHING. MUST. DIE.
Camtin Demands it!
LOL Save Dave

Yep, all highlights of diplomacy and valid CB's there.

[KainIIIC]

[quote name='pezstar' timestamp='1358622160' post='3080104']
You do indeed remember correctly. Heracles went "rogue" on Tyga after we had a relatively tense inter-alliance discussion on their forum. Magically, his slots were already full from other members of Kronos. We asked them to peace out their wars, they said they'd try, but couldn't guarantee anything, because it was up to Heracles to accept the peace. He refused, and then right before the wars were due to expire, they all peaced out at once and refilled the slots. Then, White Majik also declared on Tyga with pre-filled slots. Given that they obviously coordinated with Heracles and White Majik to prevent us from defending Tyga, we were seriously considering a war declaration, and CnG and NpO were on board. Crymson ended up trying to negotiate something with us, and we agreed to settle for 600 tech... 300 for each rogue. We got the first 300 immediately, and then once the wars were all peaced out, Kronos refused to pay the balance, stating that Crymson had agreed to this without discussing it with them, and was speaking out of turn.

We discussed war with our allies again, and we were pretty much in agreement, but ultimately, decided that an alliance war over 300 tech wasn't really something we were comfortable with, and decided to let it go in the interest of "being the bigger man", especially because the wars were eventually peaced. We also assumed that an alliance that petty would pull the same crap again and get what as coming to them. It took 2 years, but here we are. Same situation, slightly bigger fish.
[/quote]

found the thread:

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=74483&st=0

3 and a quarter years actually, and with MO9P and White Majik both involved once again heh.

[Caliph]

[quote name='xR1 Fatal Instinct' timestamp='1358630215' post='3080226']
From what I'm getting with this blood in blood out thing, Umbrella and Mo9P are able to "scratch each others backs." Umbrella gets to fulfill their bibo agreement with Mo9P and Mo9P gets to escape to peace mode to rebuy and rebuild.

Jake, you recalled that by signing bibo you are going to receive 6 nukes and then you're done (I don't know how bibo works--so I don't know if that's the entire system)? Yes, Mo9P takes the nukes, but is it really going to do [i]that[/i] damage that he can't just rebuy in peace mode? Having his slots taken (ruining the stagger) by Umbrella members guarantees that peace mode time. That way he can rebuild, rebuy and continue damaging AI members.
[/quote]
Wrong.

BIBO is applied at varying scales, the least of which is a full round of war with filling a persons slots and hitting them for the duration. This is a common enough occurance, common enough for anyone who actually was looking into it would see that it isn't something that was just made up to serve any Umbrella purpose with Puppet's slots, but rather something that has been in affect far longer than Puppets has gone rogue.

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1358630063' post='3080223']
Of course they can and they did, but they cannot claim some sort of moral outrage at what Umb did. Umb doing what it did was stupid. AI not making a clear statement about Puppets after it was done the 1st time (by 0 Umbrella nations) was, also, a mistake. I have been perfectly clear.... considering the state of CN politics... if I were AI, I would have moved on Umb too.... and to their credit they did. But let us not pretend like this isnt something other than a CB of convenience, and not something that AI felt legitimately wronged by. Its a culmination of months of prodding.
[/quote]This is very true. AI and friends did nothing when it wasn't Umbrella doing the slot filling, but then comes in when it is Umbrella doing the slot filling (slot filling here is simply taking war slots, not meant to accuse anyone of breaking TOS). Its as good a reason for a CB as any, but to claim it is some great injustice and that it gives one side a "moral high ground" is ridiculous.

[Jake Liebenow]

[quote name='xR1 Fatal Instinct' timestamp='1358630215' post='3080226']
From what I'm getting with this blood in blood out thing, Umbrella and Mo9P are able to "scratch each others backs." Umbrella gets to fulfill their bibo agreement with Mo9P and Mo9P gets to escape to peace mode to rebuy and rebuild.

Jake, you recalled that by signing bibo you are going to receive 6 nukes and then you're done (I don't know how bibo works--so I don't know if that's the entire system)? Yes, Mo9P takes the nukes, but is it really going to do [i]that[/i] damage that he can't just rebuy in peace mode? Having his slots taken (ruining the stagger) by Umbrella members guarantees that peace mode time. That way he can rebuild, rebuy and continue damaging AI members.
[/quote]

If I recall correctly, BIBO isn't limited to 6 nukes. I think Johnny managed to get parts of his BIBO revoked after he joined up with us, but Mo9P is fair game. I mean, assuming what you're saying is true, you're still only accusing them of a blown stagger - multiple blown staggers, but blown staggers nonetheless. There's more merit in saying AI should've had those slots, but I've yet to see anything that says Umb shouldn't have had them.

Of course, a blown stagger is clearly a valid CB, as we all know. And Mo9P would be acting in his own best interest in ruining AI by claiming this was planned. No, it wasn't planned. It was just poorly executed.

[Lord Valleo]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1358630043' post='3080222']
You could put to rest all your detractors by simply putting up.some solid evidence you tried to work this out with Umb.
Hammer that coffin closed if you can.
[/quote]Cmon MM you have existed on Bob far long enough to know no matter what we posted there will always be detractors and spin masters. So what would be the point really, let everyone have the beliefs and fun with a clouded conscience

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1358630063' post='3080223']
Of course they can and they did, but they cannot claim some sort of moral outrage at what Umb did. Umb doing what it did was stupid. AI not making a clear statement about Puppets after it was done the 1st time (by 0 Umbrella nations) was, also, a mistake. I have been perfectly clear.... considering the state of CN politics... if I were AI, I would have moved on Umb too.... and to their credit they did. But let us not pretend like this isnt something other than a CB of convenience, and not something that AI felt legitimately wronged by. Its a culmination of months of prodding.
[/quote]

The DT nation that moved to fill a defensive slot on puppets cooperated fully with AI. The FOK nation that took a defensive slot on puppets stayed in communication with me personally and was cooperative. The MK applicant (not a full MK member at the time he declared if his AA is to be believed) had little contact with us, but so far as we could tell was rather aggressive in his raiding attacks. We chose not to attack MK over one of their applicants raiding. AI does not allow applicants to raid, but hey we don't set MK policy.

Compare and contrast that with Umbrella's response: all those defensive slots are now ours by *our* policy, bugger off. Add in the timing of the declarations by Umbrella and it was clear that puppets tipped them off when he was going to be coming out of PM. Two completely different circumstances, one obvious Umbrella proxy who was being thrown a "retirement party".