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jerdge

Of fair play and respect

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I was really winding up for some surly snarky barbed post in reply but after reading the OP in its entirety, I have to agree.

Play "the game" however you want, but stay out of people's personal lives.

Hard to do where off-site forums revolve around as much as the players and their real lives as it does the game. But maintaining the most basic level of decorum when dealing with real people shouldn't be some monumental task. And, in fact, isn't.

So well said, Jerge.

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For some reason, I don't buy your strategy of avoiding questions as part of your "FAQs". So, with all do respect, I'll ignore them and actually respond to your overall broad point.

It's an oft cliched phrase nowadays in CN, but it really does apply here- [i]if you have such a large problem with what others are doing, than do something about it.[/i] Seriously. Judging by your reactions in this thread you'd have a few supporters as well. Your post reeks of condescension to the point of disgust. This community is what the players make it- sitting around on your rear end and elaborating over 1000 word essays on the OWF isn't going to bring about the change that you so obviously desire. So, while I don't personally agree with your points, I'd like to see you attempt to solve the issues that you bring up because, quite honestly, it would be interesting. It'd be a pretty cool thing to see. But expecting just your words and not your actions to change anything- and then continuing to cry foul when nothing changes- is insulting to the intelligence of the other members of this community.

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While I want to agree with the OP I find myself thinking Jerdge only identified half the issue. Players on the receiving end of OOC attacks have almost always been willing participants (Slayer99's Nazi hunts aside). Of all the OOC issues I have witnessed here since 06 they all have one commonality, someone shared a negative aspect of their real life, by doing so, they created the OOC incident. The perpetrator of an OOC attack has only the weapons given to him by the recipient.
If people would remember this is nothing more than a fantasy simulation game and treat it as such there would be none of this nonsense to begin with.
It's simple, anonymous people on IRC do not equate to therapists, don't bring the worst of your life to CN and you won't get the worst in return.
MM

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I'm all about the exact opposite of the OP. If someone wants to screw with me, declare on me. Otherwise, shut the $%&@ up.

e: I'm amazed that I agree with MM whole-heartedly, but I do.

Edited by nippy

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I'm so glad there's a thread on here about fair play and respect....I'd hate to see this game become affected by outside means, whether within the forums or within the game.

Edited by nippy

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[quote name='Bob Ilyani' timestamp='1329863488' post='2925263']It's an oft cliched phrase nowadays in CN, but it really does apply here- [i]if you have such a large problem with what others are doing, than do something about it.[/i] Seriously.
[/quote]

Words are actions. Plus, the culture of the community is shaped by what is acceptable. If enough people said "stop doing that" then what ever "that" was would eventually be very unpopular. Sure, some might still do it, but resounding condemnation is a pretty effective method. What are your other options? Crusade the mods for harsher punishment? In-game actions to punish the offenders? Go to their house and beat them up? What? You call for action, so what action would YOU do?

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1329864951' post='2925273']snip[/quote]

I knew someone would bring up the "but they started it!" point. "They brought it upon themselves!" ect. ect. But my advice fixes that problem: "Stay out of other people's personal lives." No excuses. If people bring their real life problems with them, ignore them. It's that simple. I like the gist of what you're saying, though.

[quote name='nippy' timestamp='1329865340' post='2925277']
I'm all about the exact opposite of the OP. If someone wants to screw with me, declare on me. Otherwise, shut the $%&@ up.
[/quote]

Oh, nippy, you put the twinkle in my radioactive eye. I like your take on it, too.

Edited by Kzoppistan

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[quote name='Kzoppistan' timestamp='1329868210' post='2925294']
Words are actions. Plus, the culture of the community is shaped by what is acceptable. If enough people said "stop doing that" then what ever "that" was would eventually be very unpopular. Sure, some might still do it, but resounding condemnation is a pretty effective method.
[/quote]

Resounding condemnation doesn't do anything if the people who condemn it just flap their gums on the forums. Type away.... It won't stop us from doing whatever we want. You can come and try to stop us though, there is a war mechanism for that. We can have a giant throw down on who's idea of the game will win. No white peace, no surrender, war or nothing. Win or get out.

Let's do this.

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[quote name='jerdge' timestamp='1329827698' post='2925079']
OK now, so CN is a [color=blue][b]simulation[/b][/color] [color=green][b]game[/b][/color]. Words are important, and in this case [i]both[/i] words are [i]very[/i] important.[/quote]
I agree with this.

[quote name='jerdge' timestamp='1329827698' post='2925079']When I talk of a simulation I don't necessarily mean Role Playing. CN being a simulation means that we retain the ability to distinguish ourselves and the game: we are free to be as saint/evil we like to be, whithin the confines of the game, but we also respect the other players as the RL human beings they are. (I am here going with an axiom I won't attempt to prove: that RL human beings [i]must[/i] be respected, Kant and all that jazz.)[/quote]
This is what I have trouble with and it comes down to the definition of what respect is all about (which is obviously quite difficult, because there are many types of respect). For example, I don't respect some of the players here (and don't believe they deserve my respect) because of the way that they use words or because of their actions. The key premise here is respect is not and should not be a given - it can be freely granted, allocated in a miserly fashion, be hard-earnt, lost in a flash, regained through forgiveness and vaporised all over again. RL human beings [b]don't[/b] have to automatically have my respect and enforcing respect of others (beyond the rules set down by the administrators of the game and moderators of these forums) runs against the notion of being able to freely choose how you relate to others.

Edit: clarification

Edited by Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz

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[quote name='Kzoppistan' timestamp='1329868210' post='2925294']
Words are actions. Plus, the culture of the community is shaped by what is acceptable. If enough people said "stop doing that" then what ever "that" was would eventually be very unpopular. Sure, some might still do it, but resounding condemnation is a pretty effective method. What are your other options? Crusade the mods for harsher punishment? In-game actions to punish the offenders? Go to their house and beat them up? What? You call for action, so what action would YOU do?
[/quote]
Considering that he is making it an in-game issue, I think he should get off of his neutral high-horse and actually attempt to bring about in-game change against those he disagrees with. The same way, you know, the rest of us do.

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Well said, I think it'll fall on deaf ears.

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[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1329870315' post='2925311']
Well said, I think it'll fall on deaf ears.
[/quote]
Don't you have anything better to do with yourself than riding other people's coattails?

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Follow the Golden Rule my friends.
"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them" (Matthew 7:12)
"Do to no one what you yourself dislike." (Tobit 4:15)

I agree with the OP. The issue I have is that people sometimes forget that the person on the other side has feelings too, and you just might ruin their day. Be decent toward people, in this game.

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[quote name='Voytek' timestamp='1329870394' post='2925312']
Don't you have anything better to do with yourself than riding other people's coattails?
[/quote]

I'm sorry if I offended you for agreeing with the OP, that wasn't the intention.

Edited by IYIyTh

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[quote name='wes the wise' timestamp='1329870490' post='2925314']
Follow the Golden Rule my friends.
"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them" (Matthew 7:12)
"Do to no one what you yourself dislike." (Tobit 4:15)

I agree with the OP. The issue I have is that people sometimes forget that the person on the other side has feelings too, and you just might ruin their day. Be decent toward people, in this game.
[/quote]
What about Masochists?

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[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1329870607' post='2925315']
I'm sorry if I offended you for agreeing with the OP, that wasn't the intention.
[/quote]

This kind of facetious little thing is all you can really manage on your own when there's nobody else present to make your comebacks for you.

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You really don't get it, do you?

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[quote name='wes the wise' timestamp='1329870490' post='2925314']
Follow the Golden Rule my friends.
"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them" (Matthew 7:12)
"Do to no one what you yourself dislike." (Tobit 4:15)

I agree with the OP. The issue I have is that people sometimes forget that the person on the other side has feelings too, and you just might ruin their day. Be decent toward people, in this game.
[/quote]
You haven't stopped to think about the fact that, perhaps, your unnecessary usage of Bible quotes in a CN post has ruined my day? :blink:

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[quote name='jerdge' timestamp='1329827698' post='2925079']
You can spread venom only so much before it's time to put you down:
[/quote]

Fundamental problem (one of two your post has), is you're assuming there is some kind of set standard for what such 'venom' may be. In reality, there isn't, and it's entirely subjective. To one person looking on, the majority of 'mean' things you see on here are laughably mild compared to real life, not even close to worthy of second glance. To another, its the most shocking thing since that darn Elvis Presley started shaking his hips all over the place down at the county fair. Everyone has different standards as a product of who they are and what they have seen, none being better than another. Obviously, like anything else, there are exceptions which everyone will know by sight, but other then that it's just not possible to use any kind of label like this.

I'll admit I never really got the whole OOC-IC distinction beyond what I needed to grasp to follow the rules, so the amount of importance some people put into it has always bothered me a little bit (which is why I'm posting, I usually stay away from these type of topics). To think that someone literally changes their personality when they post in a certain subsection of a forum is a ridiculous fiction in my opinion, so I've always gone on the premise of people are who they are, whether it be here, irc, in pm, or on the street. If someone has an attitude or personality that gets them made fun of in real life, it will probably be no different here since that's human nature. Slapping a different name on yourself doesn't change how people react to you or your shortcomings, whatever they may be. So, when you ask others to 'respect the OOC/IC line', unless your talking about the very few extreme situations we've had, you're asking people to respect a facade people made up to protect themselves from normal social responses, and that's not going to happen here nor anywhere else.

[quote]
RL consequences for RL offences, if that makes sense.
[/quote]

Honestly? No, in the context it doesn't.

Edited by Il Impero Romano

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Unfortunately, CN has degenerated into a medium for trying to one-up each other with snarky/"clever" jabs (see the second post), and internet humor/lame memes (e.g., do you like caek??). Rather than ostracize those who try to bring the tone down to this level, it seems the community has mostly decided to emulate this behavior. So when you make an IC post, from the voice of an individual who's the ruler of a nation, people can't wrap their heads around it. It really makes me question whether it's worth it to even play anymore, but then I figure that leaving would just make me a part of the problem.

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[quote name='Bob Ilyani' timestamp='1329870932' post='2925320']
You haven't stopped to think about the fact that, perhaps, your unnecessary usage of Bible quotes in a CN post has ruined my day? :blink:
[/quote]I never stopped to think about it because I struggle to understand how it ruined your day... none the less I am sorry for ruining your day. I hope tomorrow is better for you. :)

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[quote name='wes the wise' timestamp='1329880428' post='2925389']
I never stopped to think about it because I struggle to understand how it ruined your day... none the less I am sorry for ruining your day. I hope tomorrow is better for you. :)
[/quote]
You didn't respond to ktarthan's question. Please do.

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I think what the OP is saying is even if you hate someone IC and want to destroy them, you shouldn't try to harass them OOC as well, which I agree with him on 100%.

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[quote name='Tir Nan Og' timestamp='1329868528' post='2925298']
Resounding condemnation doesn't do anything if the people who condemn it just flap their gums on the forums. Type away.... It won't stop us from doing whatever we want. You can come and try to stop us though, there is a war mechanism for that. We can have a giant throw down on who's idea of the game will win. No white peace, no surrender, war or nothing. Win or get out.

Let's do this.
[/quote]

Heh, I like your sense of competition. If this were in the IC section I'd probably shake my fist and say "damn goons, you'll get yours one day" or something. But it's not. It's not about alliances vs. alliances. It's about real people from all the alliances and the general level of conduct that makes the game fun and enjoyable.

A good dose of respect for other people as human beings outside of the realm of this simulator makes for a good community and prosperous atmosphere.

Also, you underestimate the power of social conformity in regulating norms and mores. The possibility of condemnation of actions by your peers shapes how you interact and conduct yourself with others. It causes people to pick the words they use when posting, how they use them, the usage of lingo, RL actions and so on. That means, imo, no matter how rude, obnoxious, aggressive, ruthless, people might play in-game, there should be strong voices in every alliance to remind players to have respect for people outside of the game.

@Bob, I don't think Jerge is talking about bringing his opinion to bear on in-game playing, in fact, he states the opposite. So I don't know what you're getting at.

Edited by Kzoppistan

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