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jerdge

Of fair play and respect

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[quote name='Leet Guy' timestamp='1331648372' post='2937597']
It's been patently clear who you've been targeting with this topic, so to say there aren't in game actions being suggested by it is laughable at best.
[/quote]

It's funny you'd say that given the attitude of some of your comrades that in essense, everything is in play and if you don't want it to be in play, don't bring it here. Members of your alliance and others have conducted actions IC and OOC that put them and consequently Mushroom Kingdom in a bad light. People exposed those actions. Now this thread (which has gone on for quite some time) is unfair? Really? How is it unfair by the standards your own people hold up as being those by which we should game?

No, either some things are out of bounds or nothing is out of bounds for EVERYONE, not just select groups. If you are free to judge me and my actions IC or OOC with IC consequences, then I am similarly entitled to judge you and your actions.

When the shoe is on the other foot, you begin to realize that some boundaries are in order. That we are entitled to our personal opinions of each other OOC and if we find each other distasteful, we don't have to interact with each other directly here or on IRC. Keep it simple. The more your curiosity gnaws at you and you start digging into someone's background, the more you turn this into something other than a game, and more into an overly chatty, !@#$%*y sorority that people are inclined to quit in droves. Presumably your definition of "winning the game" doesn't mean that everyone else quit.

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(lol terribly late replies...)
[quote name='Hydian Way' timestamp='1330008325' post='2926642'][spoiler]Every day more of real life creeps in to the game. It used to be that when you played you were merely an IRC nickname and a forum account. Real life attacks were difficult in that no one knew anything about a person unless they dumped their purse as it was so succinctly put above.

Now though the game has evolved. Skype, video chat, cell phone numbers for military alerts, Steam IDs being exchanged. Heck even the admin staff wants you to use your Facebook account to promote the game. Real life is coming in to the game and doing so because the community at large seems to want it. You bring in more aspects of your self in to the game or connect it to the game and you bring in more out of game feuds and connect them to the game as well. That's just how it works.

The closest thing to scarcity in this game are the slots of tech sellers. We play the game with a perspective to max stats, so most alliances end up with similar economic policies, so nothing to argue about there. Trade circles are fairly uniform and we have a historical disapproval of using the senate sanction, except against rogues, so nothing to cause drama there really. There really are no economic reasons to fight, as evidenced by the old casus belli of "Breathing our air".

It used to be you had a rivalry with a specific alliance or you had an ideology that did something like demand you controlled an entire team. We even got a global war out of raiders versus non raiders. Now though in game ideology has gone down. You don't see giant essays on Francoism anymore.

What we have evolved is the idea of the massive treaty web and fighting 5 v 1 (namely in the upper tier where wars are won). This means social ties are required to win. You have to have strong ties with blocmates, with key bridge alliances (as in TOP-MK and how their treaty bridges two blocs). Being social is key. It's easier to be social when you actually get to know the other person more and build more bonds. So now you video chat, now you play games together, CN has in some ways just become one giant guild.

The one problem with that is that of course now that we all know each other better, the fights are going to be uglier. The ugliest fights are always the ones that occur in the same family where you know all the bodies are buried. So asking the community to condemn OOC attacks becomes more and more fruitless everyday. Everyday people reveal more of their OOC selves and give people more and more leverage to use against them. Human nature is ugly and when it comes time to fight people use all the tools they have.

As I mentioned social ties have become how you win wars now and even what starts wars. Look at the MK vs Sparta rivalry. The whole Pandoras Box vs SF/XX thing was pretty definitively settled when SF turned out be a paper tiger (some of those SF alliances were tripping over each other to surrender). Now MK and Sparta could have a rivalry where Sparta is unhappy over losing and is rebuilding. Yet instead we have Roquentin who feels he was badmouthed and treated poorly in a social sense as the voice of Sparta. As opposed to any kind of focus on revenge for this recent war or the like, the public drumbeat centers around both sides gleefully dumping all kinds of dirty laundry all over the OWF. Ranging from screenshots to rating individual Umbrella members. The whole thing is close to "Hell hath no fury like a scorned ex" and really centers more around OOC social interactions on both sides than it does any IC context.

Why? Because that is how Doomhouse sticks together via a social network. You never see a giant wall of text from MK members on something like Marioism or Yoshism followed by a bunch of o/'s from other Doomhouse members.

So if you want to end OOC attacks go push in game ideology as a replacement for social centered gaming. Become a contributor to in game ideology and help it become more attractive than social ties as a way to roll.[/spoiler][/quote]
You are quite right, in principle, also as simulating things in the political arena wouldn't be bad, as this [i]is[/i] a simulator, after all.
I anyway think that social OOC links are too powerful as a glue for "make believe" ideology to replace them: OOC/RL socialization is easier and more popular, which together make for quite an outstanding advantage.
Everyone also has the right to play as they want, as long as their play doesn't involve abuse.

OOC/RL socialization is anyway also a powerful tool to convince people to stop tolerating offensive RL behaviours.
If we can convince the people to care, to not ignore the issue (anymore), the advocates of insults and harassment would [i]have[/i] to stop throwing their crap around.
This is where your angle express its greatest potential, I think.

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I know that repeating apologies for being late doesn't cancel that I am late, but again: much deserved apology. Hopefully it's the last one...


[quote name='Quinoa Rex' timestamp='1330038165' post='2927037']Despite the fact that most of you seem to be reeling at the loss of your group therapy sessions as well as discouraging critical thinking en masse, [...][/quote]
I am not sure of what you're talking of with that therapy session reference: was it just a general attempt to insult the people you disagree with, or was there any actual content in that? Feel free to explain.

More on topic: this thread is [i]exactly[/i] about critical thinking. People should stop being sheep/indifferent and start to care. You'll note that there's no blatant call to emotions, there aren't rallying cries, there's no propaganda. Premises are made, reasoning is proposed, values are discussed, conclusions are drawn, counter-arguments are considered and answered to.
Why were you trying to turn tables on who's being rational, here?



[quote name='Quinoa Rex' timestamp='1330038165' post='2927037'][...] it is at the end of the day my choice about whether or not I call someone out for something they have done. I don't care about the IC/OOC line at all, and your insistence that I should is, to me, akin to calling critical thinking thoughtcrime. (Interesting how Polar members tend to think that way.)[/quote]
This is [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublethink]doublethink[/url] at its lowest. You claim for yourself the unrestricted "right" to "call out" people for what (you think) they have done, in absolutely any way, and at the same time you say that I shouldn't civilly criticize people for what (I think) they have done. Wouldn't you please make at least a minimal effort to be coherent within your stances?
Your inane whining - flavoured with "cheeky" remarks about others' alleged "need for therapy", on top of it - is frankly baffling. If you can't stand a confrontation just don't start one: it's not really difficult and it doesn't even require morals.

I'll anyway address what seems to be the core of your critique - that your opinions about what people do/would have done justify any form of reaction on your part and/or that it's wrong to invite you to restrain yourself when exercising your freedom of expression on other people's actions.
I reply (despite your utter incoherence) because your failure to critic my arguments doesn't prove that these last are correct.

What you do is your choice, there's no doubt on that (how could it be any different, anyway?) You're also [i]responsible[/i] for your choice.
The IC/OOC line is about fairness while playing. Feel free to ignore it and to be unfair towards the game as much as you want, and know that others will hold you responsible for it. It's really very simple and I don't get why you believe that others shouldn't respond to it.
Were you talking of the RL/game line, instead, again at the end of the day you're "free" to do whatever you want about it.
As said numerous times, I think that your (shakily-grounded) opinion of what people have or haven't done somewhere else shouldn't be brought to CN (more in the spoiler), you shouldn't gather with others on this or other CN-related sites to harass other players, to lob insults at them and to spread offensive (shakily-grounded) "news" about them, etc. For one, I believe that you should respect people and avoid attacking those you can know so little about. Secondarily, I believe that the other players don't deserve to have their toy polluted and intoxicated by your venom.
[spoiler][quote name='Quinoa Rex' timestamp='1330059915' post='2927294']Hiding behind your in-game persona does not absolve you of things you do out-of-game, and expecting not to be called on them when you make a spectacle of them and yourself is outright delusional.[/quote]
Just because they brought any part of their personal life in CN you don't magically become authorized to try trample all over them. Especially (but not only) not because of [i]other[/i] information you [i]think[/i] you/others dug up![/spoiler]
I anyway also said that I am not going to argue to death why people should respect each other: I just to try convince people to stand up against disrespect.
Feel free to ignore these concerns, and know that me and others will hold you responsible for that. It's really very simple and I don't get why you believe that others shouldn't respond to your attacks.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and criticizing is fine. No one has anyway the "right" to unrestricted aggression, no matter what they think they know: defending everyone's freedom and rights doesn't entail allowing anyone to infringe on others' freedom and rights - in fact [i]it's the opposite[/i]. It isn't illiberal either to say that people may (and hopefully [i]will[/i], eventually) unite to have the aggressors and the offenders stop it.
Claims that one should be allowed to do whatever they want are ridiculous, and above all are a bad reason to justify whining when that one is then subject to whatever anyone else wants to do them.

Civilly inviting people to behave, on the other hand, is certainly not an infringement on their freedom, no matter how well (or badly) one tries to associate that with the "thoughtcrime" boogeyman.



[quote name='Quinoa Rex' timestamp='1330038165' post='2927037']I think the IC/OOC divide is contrived outside the context of the forums. If you don't want your RL persona examined, [i]don't post it online[/i]. The younger set learned this in kindergarten, and for the older generation it should be common sense. When someone has exposed something about themselves, I will by nature examine it from an analytical perspective and then express what I think about it. The fact that it is OOC is immaterial, and in fact, carries more gravitas for me than IC actions because it's actually happening.[/quote]
[spoiler][list][*][color=blue][b]Q. Players on the receiving end of OOC attacks shouldn't have shared their RL to begin with.[/b][/color]
[b]A.[/b] Not sharing personal information is indeed wise, but this isn't about what to do to avoid being harassed IRL, nor about who is responsible for that, but about the community tolerating or not RL harassment and other threats to the players, the game and fair play, and why.
Players on the receiving end of RL harassment haven't always been giving away their information, by the way: some have been stalked.[/list][/spoiler]



[quote name='Quinoa Rex' timestamp='1330038165' post='2927037']Furthermore, I reject the proposition that everyone in the world is deserving of my respect. They are not and I do not intend to give it to them, for respect is earned. I will happily give someone the benefit of the doubt, but I reserve the right to give and take my respect, and additionally reserve the right to determine what I give and take it for.[/quote]
The problem with you is that your concept of "taking away" respect is not that you then discuss what others would have done, and its merit, but that you start to spout excrement-based, disability-based or etc-based insults, preferably in some place where you can do it with a mob of like-minded individuals, without having to worry about the consequences of what you say. You really have a lot of nerve to come here to talk of "critical thinking".

From the FAQs in the OP, anyway:
[spoiler][list][*][color=blue][b]Q. There are many types of respect, which one are you talking of?[/b][/color]
[b]A.[/b] The respect I am talking of is what is needed to try coexist peacefully (as players) and to not go look for trouble or for quarreling. I am not asking for everyone to love everyone else, but just for people to realize that we're just playing a game, we don't really know each other and there is no reason at all to try harm the other players. (More on this subject: [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=109250&view=findpost&p=2926580"]clicky[/url].)

[*][color=blue][b]Q. Respect is not and/or should not be a given.[/b][/color]
[b]A.[/b] I think that we can easily coexist in peace, as long as no one claims that [i]disrespect[/i] is a given (More on this subject: [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=109250&view=findpost&p=2926580"]clicky[/url].)[/list][/spoiler]



[quote name='Quinoa Rex' timestamp='1330038165' post='2927037']Jerdge, I condemn the fact that you would even presume to impose your version of morality on others. It is absolutely disgusting and anathema to everything I stand for as a person.[/quote]
It's actually ridiculous that you claim to stand for anything in the first place, when your concepts of "freedom" and "rights" are applied according to your exclusive [i]convenience[/i]: whoever you happen to like - above all: yourself - should have the right to say and do whatever they want, with no responsibility and no fear of consequences; whereas others calling you out on it would be "disgusting" and an "anathema".
I have some breaking news for you: your rights aren't different from mine and I can say about you as much as you can say about me. I just happen to do it with more consideration and respect, which if anything can be held against [i]you[/i], certainly not against me.

I additionally condemn the fact that your "morality" implies that your disagreement with me would give you the right to try to insult me with disability-based insults (incidentally: no matter how much your attempt to offend was inanely stupid in the first place).
It's a misery that that's what you stand for as a person. It's laughable that [i]you[/i] came here to pretend to have any ground to accuse [i]me[/i] of doing anything disgusting. It's pathetic that you thought you could get away with that without being called on it.

At any rate: feel free to whine all the year long that I don't meekly let you trample on me, and see how much I care about your B-rate imitation of a moral outrage.



(Anyone interested in replies to that post of Quinoa Rex's should also read [url=http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=109250&view=findpost&p=2927393]Kzoppistan's[/url]).

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I think I didn't miss any more post, at least among those which expressed fundamental disagreement with the OP. If I skipped over some, instead, please forgive me and point me to them.

(This thread has also probably run its course: unless some other major comment comes up I won't probably keep it alive any further.)

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