The Network Hungers

[Mandellav]

[quote name='King Wally' timestamp='1323433428' post='2870845']
You do realise that the NPL is fighting on the RIA front totally seperate from the Fark/NPO front? How are we defending an ally that did the same thing... we are defending RIA an alliance that had a MDP activated multiple times over.

Regardless you all can do what you want, its a free world. Enjoy your moment at the top as best you can, your not the first names in history to do as such nor will you be the last.
[/quote]

Been enjoying my moments at the top since Karma. But even I am not naive enough to think it will last forever. Doesn't mean you can blame us for trying to ride it out as long as possible. We've been at the bottom before and we'll do it again. What no one will ever say about TLR is that TLR didn't defend its allies. Whether we win or whether we lose is of little consequence so long as we are at our allies' side.

[Laslo Kenez]

[quote name='King Wally' timestamp='1323433428' post='2870845']
You do realise that the NPL is fighting on the RIA front totally seperate from the Fark/NPO front? How are we defending an ally that did the same thing... we are defending RIA an alliance that had a MDP activated multiple times over.

Regardless you all can do what you want, its a free world. Enjoy your moment at the top as best you can, your not the first names in history to do as such nor will you be the last.
[/quote]

Actually, GATO was the first name in history to be at the top.

[Razgriz2]

Nice backstab, bro

[Kalasin]

This is a regrettable situation. The thing is, it has been clear for months that the ODN-Sparta treaty was going to get strained. This is why Umbrella had the sense to downgrade with them. The problem was that Sparta had done a lot for ODN. They were good allies and refrained from hitting GATO in a previous war because ODN and TLR asked them not to. They also fought hard for them in BiPolar and such. ODN felt a sense of obligation to them and thought it would be a dick move to just cancel after everything they had done. There was also the hope some people held that Sparta would join C&G, although TLR were rather pissed when Sparta opted to discontinue the Athens treaty, which did damage the relationship and also it could never happen while Sparta was still in XX.

Honestly, I don't think it's either party's fault here. I think Sparta is mostly to blame for the situation because of their stupid FA decision making. Joining XX was such a stupid move because it was an awful bloc and because of its ties to SF. From the moment they joined that bloc they should have known their ties to DH and C&G were going to be strained in this inevitable war. They don't really have the right to get pissed with ODN, especially as in the backchannels loads of people are actually pissed because ODN has been trying to do their best by all their allies. On the other hand, perhaps ODN should have manned up and downgraded earlier like Umbrella. But that wouldn't have made anyone in Sparta happy either. ODN was faced with an unpleasant choice and chose to ignore the problem. Can you really blame them?

[Emperor Whimsical]

[quote name='Laslo Kenez' timestamp='1323434375' post='2870850']
Actually, GATO was the first name in history to be at the top.
[/quote]
One of the first one to pay reparations too. Funny how that works, eh?

[Laslo Kenez]

[quote name='Emperor Whimsical' timestamp='1323434821' post='2870854']
One of the first one to pay reparations too. Funny how that works, eh?
[/quote]

We've been around, yep.

[Mandellav]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1323434786' post='2870853']
This is a regrettable situation. The thing is, it has been clear for months that the ODN-Sparta treaty was going to get strained. This is why Umbrella had the sense to downgrade with them. The problem was that Sparta had done a lot for ODN. They were good allies and refrained from hitting GATO in a previous war because ODN and TLR asked them not to. They also fought hard for them in BiPolar and such. ODN felt a sense of obligation to them and thought it would be a dick move to just cancel after everything they had done. There was also the hope some people held that Sparta would join C&G, although TLR were rather pissed when Sparta opted to discontinue the Athens treaty, which did damage the relationship and also it could never happen while Sparta was still in XX.

Honestly, I don't think it's either party's fault here. I think Sparta is mostly to blame for the situation because of their stupid FA decision making. Joining XX was such a stupid move because it was an awful bloc and because of its ties to SF. From the moment they joined that bloc they should have known their ties to DH and C&G were going to be strained in this inevitable war. They don't really have the right to get pissed with ODN, especially as in the backchannels loads of people are actually pissed because ODN has been trying to do their best by all their allies. On the other hand, perhaps ODN should have manned up and downgraded earlier like Umbrella. But that wouldn't have made anyone in Sparta happy either. ODN was faced with an unpleasant choice and chose to ignore the problem. Can you really blame them?
[/quote]

That is some spot on incredible analysis as I see it.

[Wilhelm the Demented]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1323434786' post='2870853']
This is a regrettable situation. The thing is, it has been clear for months that the ODN-Sparta treaty was going to get strained. This is why Umbrella had the sense to downgrade with them. The problem was that Sparta had done a lot for ODN. They were good allies and refrained from hitting GATO in a previous war because ODN and TLR asked them not to. They also fought hard for them in BiPolar and such. ODN felt a sense of obligation to them and thought it would be a dick move to just cancel after everything they had done. There was also the hope some people held that Sparta would join C&G, although TLR were rather pissed when Sparta opted to discontinue the Athens treaty, which did damage the relationship and also it could never happen while Sparta was still in XX.

Honestly, I don't think it's either party's fault here. I think Sparta is mostly to blame for the situation because of their stupid FA decision making. Joining XX was such a stupid move because it was an awful bloc and because of its ties to SF. From the moment they joined that bloc they should have known their ties to DH and C&G were going to be strained in this inevitable war. They don't really have the right to get pissed with ODN, especially as in the backchannels loads of people are actually pissed because ODN has been trying to do their best by all their allies. On the other hand, perhaps ODN should have manned up and downgraded earlier like Umbrella. But that wouldn't have made anyone in Sparta happy either. ODN was faced with an unpleasant choice and chose to ignore the problem. Can you really blame them?
[/quote]
You got TLR confused with Athens for a second.

You also seem to be confusing Umbrella's downgrade on MHA with Sparta.

To say that choosing to stick by our allies when the the vice started tightening around their necks justifies our immediate allies aggressively attacking our other immediate allies is complete bullocks. We knew they would get involved and we had come to terms with it, even if they ended up fighting our immediate allies via counters but this abused our trust.

Was it naive? I suppose. We can't fault them completely though, as it seems GATO made the decision for them.

Edited December 9, 2011 by Wilhelm the Demented

[Yankees Empire]

[quote name='Wilhelm the Demented' timestamp='1323435407' post='2870861']
You got TLR confused with Athens for a second.

You also seem to be confusing Umbrella's downgrade on MHA with Sparta.

To say that choosing to stick by our allies when the the vice started tightening around their necks justifies our immediate allies aggressively attacking our other immediate allies is complete bullocks. We knew they would get involved and we had come to terms with it, even if they ended up fighting our immediate allies via counters but this abused our trust.

Was it naive? I suppose. We can't fault them completely though, as it seems GATO made the decision for them.
[/quote]
I think what Kalasin was trying to say was that you chose to join XX, which was obviously tied closely to SF, which everyone knew would be on the other side of the web from CnG, which left us is a pretty bad spot.

[Kalasin]

[quote name='Wilhelm the Demented' timestamp='1323435407' post='2870861']
You got TLR confused with Athens for a second.
[/quote]

Yeah, I wasn't sure if it was TLR or Athens. Minor point.

[quote name='Wilhelm the Demented' timestamp='1323435407' post='2870861']
You also seem to be confusing Umbrella's downgrade on MHA with Sparta.
[/quote]

That's odd, I could have sworn they downgraded to an ODP and it wasn't announced, but I just checked the wiki and it seems you're correct. Another minor point.

[quote name='Wilhelm the Demented' timestamp='1323435407' post='2870861']
To say that choosing to stick by our allies when the the vice started tightening around their necks justifies our immediate allies aggressively attacking our other immediate allies is complete bullocks. We knew they would get involved and we had come to terms with it, even if they ended up fighting our immediate allies via counters but this abused our trust.
[/quote]

No. I understand Sparta wants to prove itself, that it doesn't warrant its reputation as a cowardly alliance (and in fact I don't think Sparta is cowardly) but what you are doing is dumb. This whole nonsense about sticking by your allies and such is rubbish because you never should have tied yourselves to those people in the first place, and if you did you should have been prepared to accept the consequences. The problem is that Sparta has always had bad FA. A certain ODN government member actually told me about a conversation you had with him or her where you wanted to make sure that you were tied to everyone. ODN had an MADP with people who ended up fighting your treaty partner and they were obligated to defend them. They didn't want to be in that situation, but the fact that they haven't cancelled with you up til now is a reflection of the deep affection and appreciation they have for your alliance and what you have done for them. My advice to you is to sort out your treaties, leave XX (after this war, obviously) and maintain your treaty with ODN because they are one of the few alliances in CN who care for you.

Edited December 9, 2011 by Kalasin

[Wilhelm the Demented]

[quote name='Yankees Empire' timestamp='1323435775' post='2870865']
I think what Kalasin was trying to say was that you chose to join XX, which was obviously tied closely to SF, which everyone knew would be on the other side of the web from CnG, which left us is a pretty bad spot.
[/quote]
I got what he was saying. I even conceded to him that we did put you in a rough spot.

He's still wrong about his justifications.

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1323435887' post='2870867']
No. I understand Sparta wants to prove itself, that it doesn't warrant its reputation as a cowardly alliance (and in fact I don't think Sparta is cowardly) but what you are doing is dumb. This whole nonsense about sticking by your allies in such is rubbish because you never should have tied yourselves to those people in the first place, and if you did you should have been prepared to accept the consequences. The problem is that Sparta has always had bad FA. A certain ODN government member actually told me about a conversation you had with him or her where you wanted to make sure that you were tied to everyone. ODN had an MADP with people who ended up fighting your treaty partner and they were obligated to defend them. They didn't want to be in that situation, but the fact that they haven't cancelled with you up til now is a reflection of the deep affection and appreciation they have for your alliance and what you have done for them. My advice to you is to sort out your treaties, leave XX (after this war, obviously) and maintain your treaty with ODN because they are one of the few alliances in CN who care for you.
[/quote]
Oh please. We haven't been trying to prove ourselves since we broke away from the Continuum. (We haven't had to because we've had allies that respected us. Tbh, we'd probably have a better reputation if we did).

Tying to everyone? That was probably back when we were a significant part in holding C&G and SF together. That was part of our FA, and it worked. Otherwise it's complete bullocks because we've only signed one military treaty (other than ODN) in the last two years and that was with R&R.

As I've stated, we saw the writing on the wall and decided to stick by the bulk of our allies—allies who have been nothing but good to us—even though it looked bleak.

We understood months out that this was a tough spot for Umbrella, ODN, and Asgaard and we knew they would get involved. It's part of war. What we didn't know was that ODN would aggressively attack one of our allies directly, so excuse us if we're a little pissed off. You see, we maintained those treaties because we didn't want this war to get in the way of the friendships that they represented over some petty grudges. (No offense, TOP and IRON, I think all grudges are petty).

Edited December 9, 2011 by Wilhelm the Demented

[KingEd]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1323416521' post='2870676']
Whether or not TPE is distinct from ODN is a discussion for another thread.
[/quote]

You caught us!

[the damned]

The ally of my ally is my enemy...can't say I understand the logic here but maybe we can return the favor sometime.

[flak attack]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1323415101' post='2870623']
I have to ask seriously, [i]seriously[/i], Sparta, seriously, are you actually surprised? I mean are you really--are you [i]honestly[/i]--surprised that ODN is boning you? Have you [i]met [/i]OsRavan?
[/quote]
You're right Sparta fighting in a war opposite every single one of ODN's allies and ODN supporting all their other allies is the same as ODN boning Sparta.

Do you even read what you're posting, Schat, or do you just let mindless drivel come out without checking it?

[the dakotans]

So you attack an alliance that hadn't even declared yet, and it's a bloc mate of an ally of yours? I don't get this, nor do I want to.

Edited December 9, 2011 by the dakotans

[Jacuns]

Wow, You could have bought us a pack of Cigs because we like a nice smoke after we get good and FCKED

Edited December 9, 2011 by Jacuns

[Shockz]

[quote name='Proest' timestamp='1323430834' post='2870828']
That's right, bypass the assertions that we were planning to attack TLR, therefor giving a 'viable' reason to have MHA attacked. Totally ignore the substance, stay on that paranoia train there buddy.
[/quote]

We never got the memo; if you never intended on attacking someone who attacked your ally at least let the world know.

I know it would make you look cowardly; however, it would have saved you from this...

See where I'm going with this?

[Scorponok]

Have fun ODN.

<3 Omni

[Garion]

[quote name='Shockz' timestamp='1323442659' post='2870924']
We never got the memo; if you never intended on attacking someone who attacked your ally at least let the world know.

I know it would make you look cowardly; however, it would have saved you from this...

See where I'm going with this?
[/quote]

Parroting DH propaganda?

[summerisway2hot]

This is what I see:

"Our friends pre-emptively and with no casus belli declared a war... so we're gonna do it too!"

Nice.

MHAil!

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1323421738' post='2870754']
Schattenman:

Do you really not get the MADP? Do you not understand that its binding, and Sparta knew that the C&G MADP was binding. They knew it long ago. I had talks with Sparta gov on TLR forums about the war as it was shaping up months ago. They knew what was in store. And in general, big alliances fight big alliances. By that logic, Sparta has known for MONTHS that it was nearly impossible that ODN would not be fighting another member of XX. They can come here, they can get mad. But they knew it was going to happen. To suggest otherwise, while it may serve a PR purpose to some, is simply ridiculous. I personally have nothing but fondness for Sparta. And I feel bad for what has to be done to win this war. But they cannot, with a straight face, act like they ever thought at any point in time, that an alliance of ODNs size, in the conflict as it was shaping, would not very likely be fighting Fark or MHA. Its just nonsense to believe that.
[/quote]Rush, I completely understand what you're saying, but I also completely reject that mentality. Rejection of this flawed mentality--which is a flaw on the parts of everyone involved--is a cornerstone of Justitian ideology; it is everything that is wrong with the current state of the world.

[quote name='Laslo Kenez' timestamp='1323434375' post='2870850']
Actually, GATO was the first name in history to be at the top.
[/quote]When there were two alliances.

[quote name='flak attack' timestamp='1323440868' post='2870905']
You're right Sparta fighting in a war opposite every single one of ODN's allies and ODN supporting all their other allies is the same as ODN boning Sparta.

Do you even read what you're posting, Schat, or do you just let mindless drivel come out without checking it?
[/quote]Oh, flak. Yes, I couldn't have checked last night because Sparta hadn't really had tome to reply, but of course when you're right . . .
[quote name='Razgriz24' timestamp='1323434467' post='2870851']
Nice backstab, bro
[/quote][quote name='Jacuns' timestamp='1323442526' post='2870919']
I don't think Sparta will take this disrespect for much longer
[/quote][quote name='Trinite' timestamp='1323409859' post='2870490']
This makes me sad .
[/quote][quote name='adrian' timestamp='1323414030' post='2870589']
When you attacked our ally.
[/quote][quote name='Olaf Styke' timestamp='1323419876' post='2870732']
For those of you not privy to the back-chans let me give you a summary of ODN's defense:

"It's ok, Sparta, we knew you'd be mad."
[/quote]
. . . you're right. It's awfully telling that you'd rather dump on me than take on the situation.

[quote name='Cataduanes' timestamp='1323423657' post='2870765']
Its called a 'discussion' and the OWF would be a poorer place without it
[/quote]
You dear man.

[Jacuns]

[quote name='summerisway2hot' timestamp='1323443946' post='2870941']
This is what I see:

"Our friends pre-emptively and with no casus belli declared a war... so we're gonna do it too!"

Nice.

MHAil!
[/quote]
MHA....Please don't get rolled....

[Pingu]

[quote name='summerisway2hot' timestamp='1323443946' post='2870941']
This is what I see:

"Our friends pre-emptively and with no casus belli declared a war... so we're gonna do it too!"

Nice.

MHAil!
[/quote]

CnG rolls together. Whatever the circumstances. I thought everyone had got that memo by now.

Whether or not one approves of opening this front pre-emptively, no-one can honestly be surprised to see that when the time comes to act, CnG acts as one.

[Jacuns]

[quote name='Pingu' timestamp='1323444810' post='2870951']
CnG rolls together. Whatever the circumstances. I thought everyone had got that memo by now.

Whether or not one approves of opening this front pre-emptively, no-one can honestly be surprised to see that when the time comes to act, CnG acts as one.
[/quote]

CnG rolls together when the situation is fitting and most of XX is tied into war.....

Edited December 9, 2011 by Jacuns

[janax]

[quote name='Jacuns' timestamp='1323445027' post='2870952']
CnG rolls together when the situation is fitting and most of XX is tied into war.....
[/quote]

By your own choices and Fark's pre-empt of NPO. Not sure I'd consider hitting two small alliances much of a "tied" situation either.