Announcement from Non Grata

[Sakura]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1317280107' post='2811400']
So at least in agree in something, I think the MoD in question who made this stupid raid should step up and offer some kind of additional reparation to NG and to the nations him raided, but something that was proportional to the crime, however NG wasn't willing to negotiate so any kind of negotiation would be impossible. So the only options left was take a stand and keep some respect, the most valuable thing that us, alliances who are isolated in treaty web have, or bend over. And when you bend over the first time nothing will prevent you to bend over always. [/quote]

30m+90m? That's what I'd consider reasonable given what I can see from the NS charts of one of the two. (Can't really tell from the other one's NS chart how things went.)

[Tygaland]

[quote name='Sakura' timestamp='1317279722' post='2811386']
I did a quick (with my discounts on infra) estimate on the damage done to the one that's been at war for four days, and the total is well over 3m.
[/quote]

I'm not sure if you misunderstood my comment or I am misunderstanding your reply.

But, my comment was that I thought it improbable that raids on two nations at 20K and 30K NS repectively would only yield damage equal to or less than 3 million. In other words, I find the 3 million figure is probably much too low but I also think 30 million is too much. Hence me being "neither here nor there" on this issue.

Edited September 29, 2011 by Tygaland

[AtheistRepublican]

If you are going to make a move based on honor (having seen clearly in the past what kind of "honor" UPN was capable of in CDT), at least make your stance honorable. 30m is not extortion for a mid-range NS raid on a protected AA. Maybe a bit steep, but certainly a far cry from extortion.

I am a huge proponent of tech raids, but when you mess up, you own up to it. UPN is acting foolishly.

Edited September 29, 2011 by AtheistRepublican

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Seerow' timestamp='1317280152' post='2811402']
I have no access to NG records, so I have no idea. I do know however if someone asked them for money and they denied, it would have shown up on the OWF. Since it hasn't, I can conclude NG has never failed to comply with what was asked from those raided in the case of a failed raid.

Also, are you are saying is that a raided nation is not entitled to compensation equal to the amount lost, on the dime of the aggressors? I mean !@#$, I could understand the claims of extortion if instead of 30mil for those raided, they were asking for 1000 tech to go to themselves, but asking for a full set of aid for each attacked nation really isn't that much. We've gone over the numbers and pointed out how this is at best breaking even for the nations involved, the cries of extortion just seem really pale.
[/quote]
I don't see why $30m is fine, but 1000 tech would suddenly be extortion. Both are amounts vastly bigger than the damage done, so NG is looking to profit from a tech raid on a separate AA from theirs, who only a few people knew were under Non Grata protection. NG took advantage of UPN's mistake, good for them if everything works out in their favor. When I fought NG over one of their raids UPN sanctioned me for it, so UPN deserves whatever comes of this as far as I'm concerned.

Enjoy the war.

Edited September 29, 2011 by Methrage

[Seerow]

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1317280313' post='2811409']
I'm not sure if you misunderstood my comment or I am misunderstanding your reply.

But, my comment was that I thought it improbable that raids on two nations at 20K and 30K NS repectively would only yield damage equal to or less than 3 million. In other words, I find the 3 million figure is probably much too low but I also think 30 million is too much. Hence me being "neither here nor there" on this issue.
[/quote]

The math has been done. Given that the guy was using planes and CMs as well, the infra damage was more than twice as high as it should have been (almost 400 infra was lost off the guy who was attacked longer). The total damages from infra alone are about 25mill. Add in tech lost, land lost, money stolen, etc, 30mil is a pretty fair estimate that even neglects the possibility of messing up a sled or anything of the sort.

Basically, the initial offer was a fair one. UPN thought they should try haggling, and insulted NG with a stupidly low offer, and here we are.


[quote]I don't see why $30m is fine, but 1000 tech would suddenly be extortion. Both are amounts vastly bigger than the damage done, so NG is looking to profit from a tech raid on a separate AA from theirs, who only a few people knew were under Non Grata protection. NG took advantage of UPN's mistake, good for them if everything works out good. When I fought NG over one of their raids UPN sanctioned me for it, so UPN deserves whatever comes of this as far as I'm concerned.

Enjoy the war.
[/quote]


Really? Are you just ignoring posts you don't want to see? $30mil was a pretty moderate estimate of damage done. Once again, this math has been done. You can't say "no it wasn't that much". It really was. If it's off, it's by a couple million, maybe 27mil would be better, either way, it's far more than the 6mil offered. UPN never came anywhere near offering an amount that was approximate to damage caused.

As for why 1000 tech would be bad when 30mil isn't, it's because A) The tech takes more slots, and B) the tech is clearly a selfish move, extorting for their own tech gain, rather than sending money to the nations who were attacked.

Edited September 29, 2011 by Seerow

[Tygaland]

[quote name='Schad' timestamp='1317280206' post='2811404']
If that's what the calculated the damages to be, that's exactly how the negotiation should have worked...they set a price that compensated for damages done, and stuck to their number. Would it have been better if they'd started at a figure disproportionate to damages and allowed themselves to be talked down to $30m?
[/quote]

I have double checked and I am typing in English so I can only conclude that comprehension is the issue here. If you read and comprehended what I wrote you would have seen this and understood it:

[quote name='Tygaland']
I also have trouble believing a raid on a 20K and a 30K nation did only 3 million in damages [b]but without the reports to calculate anything from it is just my opinion based on experience[/b].
[/quote]
*emphasis mine

That is, on experience, I find the 3 million figure low but without the reports to calculate the figure from it is merely my opinion based on experience. At no point did I say nor insinuate that UPN should have offered above the damages done, that is merely a figment of your imagination.

[Charles the Great]

[quote name='JazAce' timestamp='1317280248' post='2811406']
Winter is coming... This biz will escalate.

P.S. Two man protectorates that don't list their protection in their bios are great fishing nets, aren't they? All you gotta do is wait until someone makes an oversight, bring in the net, humiliate the fish a little and then say "we don't negotiate with fish." And you got yourself a full-scale tech raid.

P.P.S. Not enough people have mentioned that UPN are in the Sentinel bloc which barring a pretty quick change of heart on the negotiation front, will be tested on it's merits immediately. It goes toward my theory that sippyjuice is the cause of all major wars.

P.P.P.S. I apologize for the labored fish metaphor, it was painful for me too, but I had to do it.
[/quote]


I liked it.

thanks

[Tygaland]

[quote name='Seerow' timestamp='1317280632' post='2811417']
The math has been done. Given that the guy was using planes and CMs as well, the infra damage was more than twice as high as it should have been (almost 400 infra was lost off the guy who was attacked longer). The total damages from infra alone are about 25mill. Add in tech lost, land lost, money stolen, etc, 30mil is a pretty fair estimate that even neglects the possibility of messing up a sled or anything of the sort.

Basically, the initial offer was a fair one. UPN thought they should try haggling, and insulted NG with a stupidly low offer, and here we are.
[/quote]

Hmmm, yes, it definitely looks like English to me when I type it and re-read my posts. I guess I have to repeat this again.

I have not seen the reports (I mentioned this in my initial comment) so had no idea how much damage was done or not done. I merely said that based on experience the 3 million figure seemed low considering the size of nations involved and that without the reports this was my opinion based on experience not raw data. I also commented that the 30 million offer was the "lowest offer" and therefore any rhetoric about negotiation is nonsense because no negotiation was entered into.

Non Grata has mentioned 15 million was the figure but it was doubled as the offender was high government which drew me to the conclusion that 30 million was a high amount. If the guy used CMs and planes then 30 million is quite probably an accurate sum. I was only going off the information I had gleaned from this discussion and other sources.

If 30 million was an accurate sum then I have no problem with that. As I said, I'm neither here nor there on this which is why both sides are cherry picking parts of what I say and ignoring the rest to attack me over my comments.

[Seerow]

[quote]If 30 million was an accurate sum then I have no problem with that. As I said, I'm neither here nor there on this which is why both sides are cherry picking parts of what I say and ignoring the rest to attack me over my comments.
[/quote]

Sorry, been arguing all night with people who refuse to believe it is even remotely possible that the damage was that high. I'm just pointing out that at several points in this thread, it has been pointed out that the math makes 30mil a fair deal.

On that note I'm getting out of here for now.

[philp110]

[quote name='Seerow' timestamp='1317280632' post='2811417']
The math has been done. Given that the guy was using planes and CMs as well, the infra damage was more than twice as high as it should have been (almost 400 infra was lost off the guy who was attacked longer). The total damages from infra alone are about 25mill. Add in tech lost, land lost, money stolen, etc, 30mil is a pretty fair estimate that even neglects the possibility of messing up a sled or anything of the sort.

Basically, the initial offer was a fair one. UPN thought they should try haggling, and insulted NG with a stupidly low offer, and here we are.
[/quote]

I love how many times you've pointed out the math to people, and they continue to whine about extortion. Gotta love the OWF.

[Sakura]

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1317280313' post='2811409']
I'm not sure if you misunderstood my comment or I am misunderstanding your reply.

But, my comment was that I thought it improbable that raids on two nations at 20K and 30K NS repectively would only yield damage equal to or less than 3 million. In other words, I find the 3 million figure is probably much too low but I also think 30 million is too much. Hence me being "neither here nor there" on this issue.
[/quote]

I was basing my figures off of [url=http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display_charts.asp?Nation_ID=394412]this chart[/url], taking the starting point of 21,068 NS, then four days later 19,774 NS, (a difference of 1,294 NS). From there, assuming 6 tech lost per GA/day, over four days, 48 tech -- or 240 NS. That leaves 1054 NS that comes from infra, land, and tech lost to *other sources*. Or, if I simply divide that by 3, around 350 infra. (Probably a bit less -- so let's say 320.)

Four days of GAs would do around 192 infra damage. Which leaves around 478 unaccounted for NS.

Which the most likely source for -- would be from attacks using weapons *other* than GAs. That, coupled with the raider *not doing research beyond bios* (because a search for VL on either Wikia or these very forums would have found the protection status), and *being a high level government official* makes 30m seem too low.

[Tygaland]

[quote name='phillip110' timestamp='1317281393' post='2811425']
I love how many times you've pointed out the math to people, and they continue to whine about extortion. Gotta love the OWF.
[/quote]

Except I have not whined about extortion at all. Other than that, good point!

[Voytek]

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1317281527' post='2811429']
Except I have not whined about extortion at all. Other than that, good point!
[/quote]
I don't think he was talking about you fwiw

[Schad]

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1317280647' post='2811418']
I have double checked and I am typing in English so I can only conclude that comprehension is the issue here. If you read and comprehended what I wrote you would have seen this and understood it:


That is, on experience, I find the 3 million figure low but without the reports to calculate the figure from it is merely my opinion based on experience. At no point did I say nor insinuate that UPN should have offered above the damages done, that is merely a figment of your imagination.
[/quote]

Comprehension is the issue, but I'm not sure that it's mine. My point wasn't related to what UPN offered, but rather to this:

[quote="Tygaland"]On the other hand it was made clear to UPN that 30 million was the lowest offer and that not accepting it meant war. This was a little high-handed and a contradiction of some of the rhetoric here about UPN not negotiating. It is tough to negotiate with someone not interested in negotiation.[/quote]

If NG have calculated it at roughly $30m in damages (and I haven't run the numbers either), setting a price and sticking to it =/= not interested in a fair negotiation, because the starting point is an amount commensurate to losses...it's a bill for damages, not a yard sale.

[Tygaland]

[quote name='Sakura' timestamp='1317281418' post='2811427']
I was basing my figures off of [url="http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display_charts.asp?Nation_ID=394412"]this chart[/url], taking the starting point of 21,068 NS, then four days later 19,774 NS, (a difference of 1,294 NS). From there, assuming 6 tech lost per GA/day, over four days, 48 tech -- or 240 NS. That leaves 1054 NS that comes from infra, land, and tech lost to *other sources*. Or, if I simply divide that by 3, around 350 infra. (Probably a bit less -- so let's say 320.)

Four days of GAs would do around 192 infra damage. Which leaves around 478 unaccounted for NS.

Which the most likely source for -- would be from attacks using weapons *other* than GAs. That, coupled with the raider *not doing research beyond bios* (because a search for VL on either Wikia or these very forums would have found the protection status), and *being a high level government official* makes 30m seem too low.
[/quote]

You seem intent on ignoring what I'm saying to allow you to argue with me about what I haven't said. I did try to give you a chance to comprehend what I'm saying but I fear trying again would be utterly pointless.

Sometimes people just want to argue even when they are agreeing with you.

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Sakura' timestamp='1317281418' post='2811427']
I was basing my figures off of [url=http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display_charts.asp?Nation_ID=394412]this chart[/url], taking the starting point of 21,068 NS, then four days later 19,774 NS, (a difference of 1,294 NS). From there, assuming 6 tech lost per GA/day, over four days, 48 tech -- or 240 NS. That leaves 1054 NS that comes from infra, land, and tech lost to *other sources*. Or, if I simply divide that by 3, around 350 infra. (Probably a bit less -- so let's say 320.)

Four days of GAs would do around 192 infra damage. Which leaves around 478 unaccounted for NS.

Which the most likely source for -- would be from attacks using weapons *other* than GAs. That, coupled with the raider *not doing research beyond bios* (because a search for VL on either Wikia or these very forums would have found the protection status), and *being a high level government official* makes 30m seem too low.
[/quote]
That amount could of been just from ground attacks and his loss of troops accounting for some of the NS strength loss. When he buys back his troops after he becomes active he easily bounces back above his initial NS again without even buying any planes, tanks or cruise missiles.

Edited September 29, 2011 by Methrage

[Tygaland]

[quote name='Schad' timestamp='1317281625' post='2811431']
If NG have calculated it at roughly $30m in damages (and I haven't run the numbers either), setting a price and sticking to it =/= not interested in a fair negotiation, because the starting point is an amount commensurate to losses...it's a bill for damages, not a yard sale.
[/quote]

Yet, another NG source calcuated it at 15 million and doubled it because the offender was in government. Unless I read that statement incorrectly?

Sticking to a price and not budging is actually not negotiating by its very nature. So, it appears it is not only my comments you struggle to comprehend. You'll also notice I have not said NG should have negotiated just that an earlier comment ridiculing UPN for not negotiating when it was made clear no negotiation was to be entered into was a contradiction.

But, I'm sure you'll slide past this to go on and on about what I haven't said. Seems to be quite the fad tonight.

Edited September 29, 2011 by Tygaland

[spoofmaniac]

I'm liking all the attention. Feels good man.

[Holy Ruler]

Good luck, NG. You will need it.

[Cager]

[quote name='spoofmaniac' timestamp='1317282045' post='2811438']
I'm liking all the attention. Feels good man.
[/quote]

The funny thing though is that people are disliking you for being terrible instead of, per say , being on top like the New Pacific Order. Probably not the attention you really want but I guess isolation does that to you.

[WorldConqueror]

[quote name='Holy Ruler' timestamp='1317282158' post='2811439']
Good luck, NG. You will need it.
[/quote]
You're full of great posts tonight.

[Cager]

[quote name='Holy Ruler' timestamp='1317282158' post='2811439']
Good luck, NG. You will need it.
[/quote]

I'd be lying if I thought this was sarcasm.

[Farrin Xies]

This can only end well for all parties involved.

[Sakura]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1317281869' post='2811434']
That amount could of been just from ground attacks and his loss of troops accounting for some of the NS strength loss. When he buys back his troops after he becomes active he easily bounces back above his initial NS again without even buying any planes, tanks or cruise missiles.
[/quote]

Based on the defending nation's total casualties over time, at most they had 280 NS in soldiers. More likely less. Also, based on the nation's current trades, when they bought the 400 infra, they spent around 23 million. That's just one. (Unless they didn't build factories when they built the infra -- in which case, they spent... almost 40 million). Also, this is only using one to do the calculations with -- the UPN MoD raided two in VL.

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1317281919' post='2811436']
Yet, another NG source calcuated it at 15 million and doubled it because the offender was in government. Unless I read that statement incorrectly?

Sticking to a price and not budging is actually not negotiating by its very nature. So, it appears it is not only my comments you struggle to comprehend. You'll also notice I have not said NG should have negotiated just that an earlier comment ridiculing UPN for not negotiating when it was made clear no negotiation was to be entered into was a contradiction.

But, I'm sure you'll slide past this to go on and on about what I haven't said. Seems to be quite the fad tonight.
[/quote]

Well, I think it was more like "negotiation" in the sense of "negotiating whether or not UPN gets (justifiably) curb stomped".

[Cager]

[quote name='Farrin Xies' timestamp='1317282558' post='2811445']
This can only end well for all parties involved.
[/quote]

I wouldn't mind a war. Don't take the dream from me.