The Overtime Accords

[Williambonney]

[quote name='SADeki' timestamp='1304651368' post='2707275']
I asked you for an actual occurrence, and you go on to just claim it happened, again without actually naming anything, or proof of any kind. Typical NPO tactics.
[/quote]
Ask mk about it if your curious. They're very crafty at these sort of things. But that is interesting, since your alliance attacked NPO while claiming NPO hasn't changed, even though we were doing nothing at all.

[quote]No, no, please elaborate on your big important issues other than the utter destruction of your alliance which is currently at hand.

And we HAVE long walks on the beach already. Companionship we do not desire. [/quote]

We have to keep them seekrit, what we plan on doing now that we have our magic ball back and the altered Delorean that we stole from dh. Leaking plans here would only serve to get me in trouble, and your just not worth my time.

Edited May 6, 2011 by William Bonney

[Yggdrazil]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1304500968' post='2705892']
I hate this thread.
[/quote]
You harvest what you plant,nurture and grow.

[Azaghul]

[quote name='Thrash' timestamp='1304643694' post='2707193']
Really? Explain how. NPO didn't start any wars to try and drag you into them.
[/quote]
That's not the only way to gun for someone.

[quote name='Letum' timestamp='1304643982' post='2707197']
There is a world of difference between disliking, or even being opposed to an alliance, and "gunning for it". Your hostility, as well as going after our trade partners and allies, create opposition by default - but to jump from that to retaliation is quite another step. Just because your alliance had a significant proportion of members that carried petty 3-year old grudges doesn't mean we wanted "revenge" against 3 alliances that had never beaten us up before. And even for those people we might have a grievance against - the allies of your allies - there was a fairly widespread recognition that it had been our $%&@up and we needed to get over it.[/quote]
I've talked to several people who left NPO since the war and all of them have said the exact opposite. Plus I remember a recent debate where NPO people were trying to say that MK signed the Karma peace terms via Archon's signature, and no one would deny the leadership role Archon played in forming that coalition.

[quote]So no, we were not gunning for anyone. We had national interests of our own, and they were not aligned with yours (mainly because you actively made them so) and yes, we quite clearly preferred one side over the other (because one side didn't want us dead). I will not deny that this war was in your national interest, quite the contrary; I applaud you for not doing things by wishy washy half measures. If you drive someone into being your rival, then you either need to go the full mile and beat them, or you shouldn't be hostile to them in the first place. However, this need to portray yourselves as come kind of "victim" forced by circumstance has to stop. I understand the need to wage a PR war, but you cannot have your cake and eat it too.
[/quote]
When have we portrayed ourselves as the victim? I don't think anyone is a victim in this.

[MarcusFuriusCamillus]

Im pretty sure if Bonney and Letum don't want peace, we can give them what they want.... an addendum to this accord is in order?

[SpoiL]

[quote name='MarcusFuriusCamillus' timestamp='1304656290' post='2707317']
Im pretty sure if Bonney and Letum don't want peace, we can give them what they want.... an addendum to this accord is in order?
[/quote]

Aren't you tough

[Kzoppistan]

A strange war.

Well done to those that fought for what they believed in.

[Solaris]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1304638679' post='2707129']
No, that's actually what CoJ is apologizing for: telling rulers that aiding nations at war is an act of war. ODN does not think that this is true.

[/quote]

CoJ obviously should've just recognize hostilities and see how that goes, instead of threatening their protectorate, maybe. Like I explained earlier, you cannot draw verifiable conclusions as far as you're reaching. It's mere conjecture.

[Letum]

[quote name='MarcusFuriusCamillus' timestamp='1304656290' post='2707317']
Im pretty sure if Bonney and Letum don't want peace, we can give them what they want.... an addendum to this accord is in order?
[/quote]

I would heartily recommend ezi for Letum. He has a very dirty mind and an even dirtier tongue.

[quote]I've talked to several people who left NPO since the war and all of them have said the exact opposite.[/quote]

Hardly the most balanced of sources. Even for those that left under good conditions, there were several points during the 10-month term period where there was enough anger to give them that impression, without the work done post-terms being there to correct it.

[quote]Plus I remember a recent debate where NPO people were trying to say that MK signed the Karma peace terms via Archon's signature, and no one would deny the leadership role Archon played in forming that coalition.[/quote]

And wherein MK has quite categorically stated that said role, and the reps received, were not in any way enough to satisfy any grievances members had. It is a bit illogical to claim that it isn't enough to even be noticeable by you guys, but for us it would require payback. If it were to be "grudge material" for us against MK, you would have been at the far end of the line, behind the 15 or so people we actually fought and sent reps to. And our relationship with most of those guys ranges from friendly to cordial.

[quote]When have we portrayed ourselves as the victim?[/quote]

Perhaps "excessively played the moral and propaganda game in order to garner political support for contentious actions" is a clearer way of putting that?

[NationRuler]

[quote name='William Bonney' timestamp='1304652644' post='2707290']
We have to keep them seekrit...and your just not worth my time.
[/quote]
Clearly, since you've responded to me 3 times. You'll be back for a fourth to defend yourself, that is, unless your big, important, exciting agenda keeps you from the OWF.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Solaris' timestamp='1304660441' post='2707348']
CoJ obviously should've just recognize hostilities and see how that goes, instead of threatening their protectorate, maybe. Like I explained earlier, you cannot draw verifiable conclusions as far as you're reaching. It's mere conjecture.
[/quote]
The original plan was to do this if they didn't cease. A number of factors (unrelated to ODN and their tough guy response) prevented it.

The original plan of action [i]mandated[/i] that we inform TFE of what they were doing, that it was an act of war, and to give them a chance to stop. See, I know you folks in PB and DH don't understand, but this is something we call diplomacy, and it's supposed to be used before conflicts escalate.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1304655695' post='2707313']
That's not the only way to gun for someone.
[/quote]
Like I said, sitting on your hands for 2 years and trying to [i]avoid[/i] war as much as possible, is the [i]exact opposite[/i] of gunning for anyone. Your argument is beyond absurd.

[r00tn00b]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1304661849' post='2707362']
Like I said, sitting on your hands for 2 years and trying to [i]avoid[/i] war as much as possible, is the [i]exact opposite[/i] of gunning for anyone. Your argument is beyond absurd.
[/quote]
Everything you say is beyond absurd

[Letum]

[quote name='r00tn00b' timestamp='1304662048' post='2707363']
Everything you say is beyond absurd
[/quote]

The party I'm holding in my pants is beyond absurd.

[Solaris]

[quote name='Bob Ilyani' timestamp='1304650190' post='2707265']
Everyone that [participates in planet Bob politics does]; it's learning to embrace the problem that makes us all so awesome
[/quote]
You're now amongst my favourite people.

[nippy]

[quote name='Letum' timestamp='1304662175' post='2707365']
The party I'm holding in my pants is beyond absurd.
[/quote]

That's because you have disco balls.




Sorry, remnants from the Organization XIII thread.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1304643151' post='2707186']
I freely admit that we were gunning for you. The problem is that y'all keep trying to deny that you were gunning for us and present yourself as peaceful neutrals when it came to the conflict.
[/quote]
They were neither gunning for you nor peaceful neutrals. Those aren't the only two options, you know.

[quote name='JoshuaR' timestamp='1304644006' post='2707198']
Excuse me for thinking highly enough of these alliances to think that their combined number can do in 15 cycles what Umbrella does in 3 without even trying.
[/quote]
Legion NS - 3,892,863
The Phoenix Federation NS - 2,489,409
Regnum Invictorum NS - 1,249,074
Cult of Justitia NS - 617,427
The Sasori Initiative - 587,625
64Digits NS - 175,822
Sanitarium NS - 60,436
NADC NS - 1,103,374
SNAFU NS - 1,012,191

Total - 11,188,221 NS, or 36% more than Umbrella's NS.

Meanwhile, can you possibly imagine that in that 11 million NS there might be a few nations in need of rebuilding aid?

Like, well, most of them honestly.

[quote name='JoshuaR' timestamp='1304644006' post='2707198']
And to your other point, Umbrella is about to enter a twenty-one day war, so perhaps we won't be ranked so highly a month from now.
[/quote]
Yeah right.

http://www.cybernations.net/search_wars.asp?searchstring=Declaring_Alliance%2CReceiving_Alliance&search=Umbrella&anyallexact=exact

There are 9 NPO warmode nations in range of any of Umbrella's top 40. They're not going to bring you down, and stop pretending otherwise. Odds are you won't even declare.

[Choson]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1304661752' post='2707360']
See, I know you folks in PB and DH don't understand, but this is something we call diplomacy, and it's supposed to be used before conflicts escalate.
[/quote]

[font="Lucida Console"][quote][size="3"][b]diplomacy[/b][/size]
di·plo·ma·cy
   [dih-ploh-muh-see]
–noun
1. the conduct by government officials of negotiations and other relations between nations.[/quote][/font]

I see nothing in there about a timeline. In fact, all I can really tell is that we're really [i][b]good[/b][/i] at diplomacy since we got your side to sign off on this peace treaty after months of negotiations.

Are you sure you and Schattenmann don't suffer from [i]dementia praecox[/i], or the very least... [i]schizophasia[/i]?

[Williambonney]

[quote name='Choson' timestamp='1304678488' post='2707428']
[font="Lucida Console"][/font]

I see nothing in there about a timeline. In fact, all I can really tell is that we're really [i][b]good[/b][/i] at diplomacy since we got your side to sign off on this peace treaty after months of negotiations.

Are you sure you and Schattenmann don't suffer from [i]dementia praecox[/i], or the very least... [i]schizophasia[/i]?
[/quote]
Considering that yes, but since you ended up with less than you initially wanted does that make us better?

[Solaris]

[quote name='William Bonney' timestamp='1304681489' post='2707434']
Considering that yes, but since you ended up with less than you initially wanted does that make us better?
[/quote]
Anchoring is a pretty common negotiation technique

[SADeki]

[quote name='William Bonney' timestamp='1304681489' post='2707434']
Considering that yes, but since you ended up with less than you initially wanted does that make us better?
[/quote]

The terms were much closer to our ideal terms than they were to yours, so no, you guys are not better.

[Xavii]

Made it to 10 pages before I decided to give up.

We won, and in the next 21 days we will win even more!

[Gobb]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1304635052' post='2707102']
So you admit that "The end of silence for fear of persecution." is just a farse.
[/quote]
No, because declaring yourself pretender is more than just posting one's opinion. Is it your opinion though that one can say anything about anyone or anything and if action is taken against him he's being persecuted?

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1304635052' post='2707102']
Happily still there are people who value their freedom of speech above their infrastructure.
[/quote]
Or there actually is no threat of getting attacked just for voicing your opinion.

[Letum]

[quote name='Lord Gobb' timestamp='1304686243' post='2707457']
Or there actually is no threat of getting attacked just for voicing your opinion.
[/quote]

MK's argument that it does not attack people randomly lies in the claim that NPO has been "provocative". In lieu of NPO actually doing some sort of action, which we haven't done for the past 2 years, words are the only thing that is left to serve as provocation. So, in the end, it either means that voicing our opinion makes us a target that you will go after as soon as it is in your strategic interest, or that you'll just hit anyone it's in your interest to hit regardless of what they are doing.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1304640218' post='2707145']
There's plenty of evidence. We don't have any logs of them explicitly saying it, but the obvious propaganda campaign, allying with others opposed to us, and their history of trying to get revenge on those who defeated them are more than enough.[/quote]

In other words, you've got nothing.

The problem is that you keep trying create proof where it doesn't exist. The attack on NPO was always a judgment call. There's no proof that NPO was planning on doing anything.

[quote]NPO bogeyman? No, they weren't and aren't that powerful. That doesn't make them not a rival or threat that we want to take out.[/quote]

A massive bloc of NS stays permanently locked together in treaty. When any portion of it is threatened, ghosts of 3-4 years ago are conjured. No, in your mind they are the bogeyman and they are that powerful. The problem is that now you're beating up an old man, not world champ. Until you see NPO for what it really is now, you'll keep going back there. If not in 6 months, then in a year. It's kinda sad really.

[quote]You miss the point, as usual. That wasn't a CB, but it was clear evidence of their intention to oppose us.[/quote]

See above. No, there wasn't. Once again, I would have made that call to launch a preemptive strike. On the other hand, I wouldn't have come anywhere near this treaty with regard to terms. These terms blow, even though they could have actually been far worse. All you've done is forced the cowering old man to stand up and pull on his boxing gloves to fight because you weren't satisfied with the war. There's no honor in that and not particularly any sort of justification.

[Letum]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1304687131' post='2707462']
All you've done is forced the cowering old man to stand up and pull on his boxing gloves to fight because you weren't satisfied with the war.
[/quote]

Actually, for a lot of us, they've kinda forced us to wait until a peace agreement is reached before we could leave peace mode, because otherwise we wouldn't be able to count as part of it. If it weren't for that demand I'd have been out since March.

Edited May 6, 2011 by Letum